Always the photographer...tales of the lowest bidder..

[runnah]

I see this every day as an electrician. "We can hire someone for a third of what you're asking!"

"Fine, I can't compete against laid-off second-year apprentices who have no license or insurance and won't be around six months from now. Go ahead and hire them"


Honest-to-God, at least twice a month I get a call back from these people, crying in their spilt milk. "Can you come over and finish this up... I paid the other guy, and he's not even halfway through and won't answer my calls or reply to my emails...................."

Photographers deal with Best-Buy "Pros", electricans deal with Home Depot "Pros".

Not sure what kind of work you do but trust me I have to deal with the same thing. You get subs who bid rock bottom prices only to find they do **** work and then file 50 different change orders to jack the price up to what it would have been if you used the more expensive people in the first place.

 

[John27]

People just don't understand how the world works. If it costs more, it's because there is more overhead. In an industry, more/less everyone makes about the same. I mean honestly. There are a few making peanuts, and a few tipping the scales. BUT, more or less, everyone is making within the same range. The difference is the amount of overhead they have. If you pay more for a more experienced professional who also has more overhead, you'll get better stuff, because that overhead exists to better serve YOU!

Of course, we're all speaking to the choir here... But in various positions I've worked it always amazed me. Like working retail in a big mom-and-pop hardware store inhigh school, a customer seems something for $20 and says "Puh, you probably only pay $12 for it and are gonna charge me $20!"

Well, yeah. You could contact the wholesaler, negotiate freight shipping on the back of a tractor trailer, and buy hundreds if not thousands of them to get them at that price. OR, you could let us do all of that. And then, we'll put it in our giant multi-million dollar building, on shelves that costs thousands of dollars, with an employee who doesn't work for free to show you where it is! But people just can't seem to understand the concepts of cost of doing business, overhead, expenses, etc. OR, the value of using insured services. I cannot imagine having someone work on my home or my car who is not insured. First off, they could sue ME if they got hurt, AND, if they screw something up, I have no recourse if they just decide to walk out on me! If they are insured, all I have to do is contact their agent... It'll be a pain and I'll never hire them again, but at least I'll eventually be compensated.

 

[480sparky]

Not sure what kind of work you do but trust me I have to deal with the same thing.

Ummmmmmmmmmmm. Electrical.

You get subs who bid rock bottom prices only to find they do **** work and then file 50 different change orders to jack the price up to what it would have been if you used the more expensive people in the first place.

The vast majority of the wanna-be's don't comprehend 'extras', let alone how to properly bid a job and how to handle (and charge for) extras. They just think that working equals making money. Yeah, when you're a 40-hours-a-week waged employee, that works. But it fails miserably when you're self-employed. They end up failing to truly make money ("Oh, I gotta pay taxes?!?!?!") and end up getting a job at the Pizza Ranch or Grease Monkey.

I see 'up-starts' every week. 90% of 'em are gone inside of 3 months. The sad part is, they're just like drug dealers. As soon as one folds up, there's a dozen more willing to take their place in the Great Race-To-The-Bottom. I call it The Wal-Marting of America. Cheap is king. As long as we worship this king, the quality of everything will continue to decline.

 

[runnah]

Not sure what kind of work you do but trust me I have to deal with the same thing.

Ummmmmmmmmmmm. Electrical.

That is a wide net...panels to 345kv Substation work

If you can get your class one lineman cert we are hiring

You get subs who bid rock bottom prices only to find they do **** work and then file 50 different change orders to jack the price up to what it would have been if you used the more expensive people in the first place.

The vast majority of the wanna-be's don't comprehend 'extras', let alone how to properly bid a job and how to handle (and charge for) extras. They just think that working equals making money. Yeah, when you're a 40-hours-a-week waged employee, that works. But it fails miserably when you're self-employed. They end up failing to truly make money ("Oh, I gotta pay taxes?!?!?!") and end up getting a job at the Pizza Ranch or Grease Monkey.

I see 'up-starts' every week. 90% of 'em are gone inside of 3 months. The sad part is, they're just like drug dealers. As soon as one folds up, there's a dozen more willing to take their place in the Great Race-To-The-Bottom. I call it The Wal-Marting of America. Cheap is king. As long as we worship this king, the quality of everything will continue to decline.

Which is why we pre-qualify every sub we even think about letting bid. Which everyone should do before hiring any sort of craft person.

 

[John27]

The vast majority of the wanna-be's don't comprehend 'extras', let alone how to properly bid a job and how to handle (and charge for) extras. They just think that working equals making money. Yeah, when you're a waged employee, that works. But it fails miserably when you're self-employed. They end up failing to truly make money ("Oh, I gotta pay taxes?!?!?!") and end up getting a job at the Pizza Ranch or Grease Monkey.

I see 'up-starts' every week. 90% of 'em are gone inside of 3 months. The sad part is, they're just like drug dealers. As soon as one folds up, there's a dozen more willing to take their place in the Great Race-To-The-Bottom. I call it The Wal-Marting of America. Cheap is king. As long as we worship this king, the quality of everything will continue to decline.

Competition is good. If someone can genuinely find away to accomplish a job with the same quality but spend less money doing it, that's wonderful! When Henry Ford first utilized the assembly line, he was able to undercut his competitors while still providing a quality product.

BUT... Henry Ford was a businessman who still had overhead and expenses, and still sold his cars for near market prices, just used his savings to be a little bit cheaper to drive his business upwards. He didn't slash costs by operating illegally (no taxes), and failing to have his basic needs!

I feel ya 100%! I feel sorry for professionals in the photography field, you know how many of my friends from high school are.. "photographers" now? Using a point and shoot or a low end DSLR with the kit lens, no knowledge of anything, doing senior portraits for $50? It works in all industries too. My wife worked for a Doctor for a month, ONE MONTH. He opened a brand new practice, hired her as his first employee (office manager). After a month he closed the practice. Bam. Why? Well, my wife started to give him all this info about taxes he needed to be charging, things he needed to do to start collection from insurance companies, etc. etc. Beyond that, he finally (after opening the practice and hiring an employee, mind you) hired an attorney who gave him an even bigger list of expenses and things he needed to do. All the while thinking he was smart renting a small office and charging $30 a visit.

Closed after a month. He's back to working in the hospital. I guess he assumed because he was a physician, he would be able to run a business. Evidently not! He's a good Doctor, wouldn't hesitate for a moment to let him treat me. But, just as long as he's a salaried employee of someone else! LOL

 

[Awiserbud]

$200 might be ridiculously cheap for a wedding photographer, however it seems extremely expensive for someone that has one camera, one lens, and no flash. that all suggests the photographer probably wasn't very experienced, probably new to DSLR's, and possibly a friend of the bride or groom, seems to me if this person was a friend and was new to shooting weddings etc then perhaps he/she should have done it for free (that way noone could moan if they turned out poor, and it would have given the photog some experience)
The moment you start charging for your work you have to provide a professional service (which by most peoples deffenition is what determines a pro) so no matter how cheap you set your prices people should still expect correctly exposed and focused shots, lets be honest an out of focus shot is simply not acceptable if someone is payin for your work.

 

[480sparky]

Competition is good. If someone can genuinely find away to accomplish a job with the same quality but spend less money doing it, that's wonderful! ........

I'm not anti-competition. I'm against the guys who claim to be 'in business' who really have not the first clue about what that means. As far good ol' Henry, he did far more than just make cars. He attempted to control every aspect of the car manufacturing business. He bought up steel mills to make his own steel. He also bought the mines that dug up the raw materials. He purchased railroads that were used to transport these materials. Whatever went into making a Ford, Henry wanted 100% control of it.


Here's a story I like to pass around:

Years ago, Joe Sixpack got a job as a helper for Fly-By-Night Electric. He started out working with a journeyman wiring houses for Cut Corners Construction. Joe turned out to be a pretty good electrician, learning fast and working hard. As the years went by, Joe got pretty good at wiring houses. Soon, he was running the jobs himself, and had his own helper.

Then recently, Joe got to thinking. "Fly-By-Night charges Cut Corners ten grand to wire a house. I know I get paid about $1500, and my helper gets $1000. I know the material costs around $2500.......... so that means the boss is making five grand just sitting at the office endorsing checks!"

So Joe decides to strike out on his own. "Man, this'll be great! I'll charge just $7000 to wire the houses, and with only $2500 in material, I'll pocket $4500 for each house I do....... Jeez, that's more than three times what I was making for 'the man'!"

So Joe hangs out his shingle. . He doesn't have any health insurance, thinking he'll get that later when things really get started. Suddenly, he realizes he needs to be licensed. So he takes the test, and spends more money for the test and license. He also doesn't understand that driving his own truck costs money, both in gas, repairs, insurance, etc.

All fired up, he gets his first job for Cut Corners. Right from the start, Cut Corners wants a current liability insurance certificate. So Joe forks out $3000 for insurance. A few weeks later, he gets a letter from the state saying he's not a registered contractor. So another $600 is spent. Oh, yea, the city says they need $1250 for a permit.

A few days into the first job, Cut Corners says they need temporary power. Joe didn't figure the cost of a temp pole into the job, but he builds one and gets it hooked up. Joe finds out he needs more than a 3/8" drill and 4-foot stepladder. So he goes out and buys more cords and a couple ladders. Every time Joe needs material or another tool, he'd drive down to Home Depot and whip out the plastic. Pretty soon, he realizes he's a couple days behind schedule. Why? He's working alone, and doesn't have his old helper with him.

So Joe starts working 12-hours days, and a couple Saturdays as well. He skips his daughter's dance recital, and misses his son's Little league game. He comes home dirty, tired and grouchy, which cause his family to stay away from him.

By the time the house is roughed in, his credit card is maxed out and Joe needs to borrow money from his parents. "Just until I get this job done, then I'll be rolling in dough" he tells them. He borrows even more money just to buy the material he needs to trim the house. By this time, he has alienated his family and taken his credit rating down below 400.

And the sad truth is, by the time job is done, he's been paid only $7000 and has spent $14000 just to 'be in business'. So he tells Cut Corners the next job will be $8500, thinking he can 'make it up' on the future work. But even that 'extra' $1500 'from the next job' won't cover his $7000 shortfall. Besides, Cut Corners won't hire him again because Joe caused them to get behind on their schedule. And to add insult to injury, they found someone else to do the job for less.

Dejected, Joe goes home, only to find a letter from the IRS saying they want $3250 for the income tax Joe owes from that job. The state also wants $675 for sales tax. All the 'profit' Joe thought he was going to make went to pay his bills, leaving nothing to pay his parents back with.


And who did Cut Corners hire to wire their next house? Joe's old helper from Fly-By-Night!

 

[runnah]

$200 might be ridiculously cheap for a wedding photographer, however it seems extremely expensive for someone that has one camera, one lens, and no flash. that all suggests the photographer probably wasn't very experienced, probably new to DSLR's, and possibly a friend of the bride or groom, seems to me if this person was a friend and was new to shooting weddings etc then perhaps he/she should have done it for free (that way noone could moan if they turned out poor, and it would have given the photog some experience)
The moment you start charging for your work you have to provide a professional service (which by most peoples deffenition is what determines a pro) so no matter how cheap you set your prices people should still expect correctly exposed and focused shots, lets be honest an out of focus shot is simply not acceptable if someone is payin for your work.

Whats funny/sad is the people overstate their skills so much more these days. When hiring for a position in my department I was sick of getting burned by people with BS resumes so I developed a quiz for hiring a graphic designer. Answer some basic design related questions and create an ad using pre-selected elements and texts.

That little quiz weeded out 75% of the applicants.

 

[pixmedic]

$200 might be ridiculously cheap for a wedding photographer, however it seems extremely expensive for someone that has one camera, one lens, and no flash. that all suggests the photographer probably wasn't very experienced, probably new to DSLR's, and possibly a friend of the bride or groom, seems to me if this person was a friend and was new to shooting weddings etc then perhaps he/she should have done it for free (that way noone could moan if they turned out poor, and it would have given the photog some experience)
The moment you start charging for your work you have to provide a professional service (which by most peoples deffenition is what determines a pro) so no matter how cheap you set your prices people should still expect correctly exposed and focused shots, lets be honest an out of focus shot is simply not acceptable if someone is payin for your work.

I guess my posts are really getting too long winded. in the OP, i explained that the photographer was indeed a friend of the brides, and was doing it for free, even though she explained that she wasn't very comfortable doing weddings. the $200 was what the brides mom was willing to pay since they had a friend willing to do it for free.

 

[runnah]

Story

Are you "Joe"? Do you need a hug?

 

[John27]

Competition is good. If someone can genuinely find away to accomplish a job with the same quality but spend less money doing it, that's wonderful! ........

I'm not anti-competition. I'm against the guys who claim to be 'in business' who really have not the first clue about what that means. As far good ol' Henry, he did far more than just make cars. He attempted to control every aspect of the car manufacturing business. He bought up steel mills to make his own steel. He also bought the mines that dug up the raw materials. He purchased railroads that were used to transport these materials. Whatever went into making a Ford, Henry wanted 100% control of it.

Sorry, I'm with you, I guess I didn't say it clearly. In other words, I was saying exactly what you were, people THINK they understand how competition works and how some are able to charge less than others but still remain in business, but they really don't. Competition works when people figure out better ways to do things. Not when people just charge less and think they can just shirk costs that the others seem to need.

It's kind of like the 'It's not the camera it's the photographer' addage that is used by so many to justify professional photography without the serious equipment investment that is needed. If that was true, no self-respecting business person who spend tens of thousands of dollars on equipment, if they could simply get away with a rebel, kit lens, and the pop-up flash. It would be a complete waste of money. It takes talent, it takes knowledge, AND it takes the right tools for the job.

One of my relatives is a superintendent for a construction company that hires workers who have to provide their own tools. (I don't know if that's typical or not, don't know anything about the construction field!) The new guys always come in with the cheap tools, and scoff at the old dogs with their high dollar tools that 'do the exact same thing'. They figure it out when they bang out a cheap hammer all day long and are sore, and it eventually breaks anyway, and the dumb-ol-dog who spent too much is whacking one-swing to one-nail with a perfectly weighted and balanced hammer, it finally clicks! But you can't tell anyone that until they experience it... I'm sure the same is true in the world of professional photography. You might have taken some GREAT shots with your camera, but what about when you HAVE to take a shot for a client, and the conditions aren't right for your gear?

 

[480sparky]

Story

Are you "Joe"? Do you need a hug?

Everyone asks me that when I post this. No, I'm not Joe. But I've seen hundreds of Joes out there. They're working at gas stations and pizza joints these days. MY business is doing just fine.

 

[John27]

Story

Are you "Joe"? Do you need a hug?

Everyone asks me that when I post this. No, I'm not Joe. But I've seen hundreds of Joes out there. They're working at gas stations and pizza joints these days. MY business is doing just fine.

Kind of like a joke I heard. "Yeah so I saw so-and-so who left the company to go start his own and show us how it's done, remember him?" "Oh yeah, yeah! What did he say to you?" "You want fries with that?"

 

[Awiserbud]

I guess my posts are really getting too long winded. in the OP, i explained that the photographer was indeed a friend of the brides, and was doing it for free, even though she explained that she wasn't very comfortable doing weddings. the $200 was what the brides mom was willing to pay since they had a friend willing to do it for free.

Sorry, i should have read your post more carefully, Its been a long day...almost 10pm here

 

[480sparky]

Another problem is the perceived pay rate. I just did a hot tub hookup earlier today. I charged $250 to install the disconnect, and provide/install the wiring between it and the tub. I did the whole job in about an hour.

Of course, the homeowner thinks I'm paying myself $250 an hour. They don't realize I had $75 in material, as well as my vehicle expenses (gas, insurance, repairs, etc.), usual business overhead (liability insurance, licensing and CEUs, etc.), tools, travel time, the whole nine yards. So when all is said and done, I maybe brought home $100 for the afternoon, and that's before the gubbamint takes their cut.

I can charge $250 for an hours work because I've spent the last 23 years learning how to do the work that fast.