buying a camera

[fightheheathens]

Unfortunatly i had everything stolen from me saturday, Lenses, filters, all if it. So i need a new camera. I had been planning on buying a digital at some point soon, but i want a film camera because i love to shoot B&W and Slides. Plus i just invested in B&W chems and developing stuff.
I had a Pentax MX and i loved it. I dont need bells and whistles on my film camera because i dont shoot much action. I am pretty much a slave to my tripod. (i planned on using digital for action and stuff like that...) So I am going with a fully mechanical film camera,
Either the Pentax MX again, a Nikon F2 or the Canon AE-1.
I have thought about medium format, but at this time, that is too expensive for me. (MF is on my list after digital)

Before, my camera had been my dads and it was free so when i switched to digital, brand didnt matter. IE, it wasnt important to me to keep going with pentax so my lenses would work. I would just buy into a new system and build up from there.
However, now that i am going to be investing about 800$ in a body and nice lenses and filters, I may as well get something where my Film lenses will work with what ever future digital camera i buy.
So here is my question, What is the back compatibality of each of the cameras i listed. (obviously i looked on their web site but i would like info from a non biased source)

Will Canon EOS lenses work with the AE-1? Can i use a lens on both a 30D and AE-1

I know Pentax lenses will work to a limited extent with the new DSLRs
but is there some sort of adaptor? So will a lens for a K10 work on a MX?

I have heard that Nikon has used the same lens mount since the F1
but how accurate is this, will a Nikkor lens work with a F2 and a D80/D200?

It seems like the Nikon is the way to go, but my problem is that nikon has not introduced a full frame sensor. I know i cann't afford that now, but my thinking is by the time i am ready to upgrade my digital body canon will have a full frame in something i can afford while nikons full frame (i assume they will come out with one) will be available only in their top end model

Im not looking for a nikon vs Canon vs Pentax. I've held all of the above cameras and i know what i like, im just looking for advise on lens compatability and how realistic it is. Of course the web sites will tell you how easy it is to use your old lens with their new camera and fail to mention that it wont focus right, or the aperature wont work or you have to buy their 500 dollar adaptor....

 

[usayit]

Canon AE-1 have FD mounts and Canon EOS systems use EF mounts. Canon abondoned the FD mount when they moved to the electronic EF mount. They are not compatible.

Nikon's have limited backward compatibility depending on the body. I don't believe the Nikon D80 nor the D40 are backward compatible. I'll defer to a Nikonian to provide details.

Pentax has maintain backward compatibility depending on which Kmount. A adapter will be necessary for screw mounts just as with your MX.

My advice... you are starting over... everything is gone. Is it absolutely necesssary to go with a fully mechanical camera?? That in of itself is an extremely limiting requirement. Even the AE-1 is not fully mechanical. A present day electronic film camera will just fine for your traditional 35mm film work.

I would take this route. Research and choose a system you like based on the availability of lenses and the design of their bodies. Most manufacturers have a general "feel" and design that is carried throughout their lines. Once you have made your choice, purchase a lens of your choice first.. perhaps a medium zoom that will be your general walk around lens. Then find a good conditioned used 35mm film body of that system. Those two purchases plus whatever accessories that you need to replace will pretty much consume your $800 budget. This will get you back outside shooting once again with an updated meter and autofocus lens. From there, you have opened the door to some choices once more funds are available: more lenses or DSLR. The $800 budget your currently have will be difficult to jump right into a DSLR.

For example (I'm a Canon shooter but you don't necessarily have to go with Canon). Within your $800 budget:

Elan 7 (used) - Around $200
Canon 28-135 f/3.5-5.6 IS USM - $400
Accessories: bag, filters, etc. - $200
If you like a prime add $80 for 50mm f/1.8.

The Elan 7 is the latest of the "prosumer" line of cameras from Canon and will get you a wide array of features and metering modes. It is known to be a very good 35mm body for the price. A new one will be about $340 for the Elan 7 NE. My cousin shoots with the lens spec'd above and is very happy with it... You even get Image Stabilization and USM with that lens. You will also be way better off in terms of quality than any of the lower consumer level bodies and kit lenses available for slightly less.

If you stick with film, perhaps a longer or wider zoom is the next step. If you decide to go digital, $1000 will get you into either a 20D or 30D which is also compatible with that Canon 28-135mm lens.

I'm sure you can find equally effective examples with other brands as well.

What are your reasons for wanting a full frame sensor? Canon is the only one right now and only in their fairly expensive higher end bodies. Nikon is rumored to have one in the works but I bet it too will be fairly expensive.

 

[usayit]

BTW... getting into MF (film of course) is way easier and affordable than you think now a days. $400-500 is doable....

 

[fightheheathens]

thanks for the advise, ill deffinatly look at that, however i think maybe i should explain myself some more.
my 800 dollar budget was chosen because that was the approx value of everything that was taken.

I want a mechanical camera for several reasons, One is that i like to do star trails and to the best of my knowledge you cant get extreamly long exposures with the electronic shutters. I recently did a star trail picture with a 5 hour shutter time.

I believe the AE-1 is weather sealed, I know the Pentax and Nikon are weather sealed, and while im not a pro, i do take my camera to bad places (Ocean/snow/rain/nature) and while i took my utmost caution to protect my camera, i was glad of its sturdy build.

thats another thing, the mechanical cameras were build like tanks,
i dont know about the elan 7 or such, but i have used both film and digital Rebel's and the latter model pentax's. They are made of plastic and feel flimsly to me.
Further more, i absoutly hate auto focus for anything but fast action, and i hate auto modes except for something like fast action. even then ill only use aperature or shutter priority modes.

I probably wont start off with a zoom lens, I had a very nice 50mm lens and i would rather spend 300 dollars on an excellent 50mm lens then on a crap zoom lens. If i have a 50mm and a 24 or 28mm, i would be fine.
I never understood IS, why get a f/4 lens with is when i could just as easly get a 2.8 lens? wouldnt that cover the 2 or so stops that IS gives?

lastly, the Nikon F2 or Pentax MX will run me 100-250. maybe more for the Nikon...but not much. Both those cameras were professional cameras, why get a prosumer when i could get a professonal camera for the same price? Those cameras are considered the best mechanical cameras ever made and having used rebels and other pentax's i just dont care for their overall feel. I almost never use my camera for anything but landscape or artistic type of shooting so autofocus, autoexposure, auto film advance are not necessary

 

[Alex_B]

well, if you want to go with Canon in both film an digital, why not get an EOS film body? You get really good used ones reaaaallly cheap these days! Such a camera will cost you less than a B+W filter! And you have full lens compatibility at least with the full frame Canon lenses (EF-s lenses will not work).

I personally have an EOS 100 ... not a pro model, but a very nice camera.

 

[Jeremy Z]

As Alex pointed out, there are electronic bodies that are built like tanks too. (I have an EOS 620 for sale like that)

However, you have experience with Pentax, and Pentax maintains the best backwards compatibility; better than Nikon. You're right about the star trails and the long shutter times. Nothing beats mechanical for a 5 hour shutter speed!

For Pentax, also consider the ME Super, Super Program, K1000, LX, and MX. They all have mechanical bulb settings. The K1000 and the MX are fully mechanical. I just bought a Pentax manual focus 50mm f/2 for my K100D, and it works gloriously well.

In Nikon, consider the FM, FE, FM2, and FE2 cameras. They are less expensive than the collectible F2. The FM models are fully mechanical. The FE models have electronic shutters, but with mechanical flash sync and bulb settings. (same for the FG)

Another option would be an Olympus OM1 or OM1n. They use the excellent Zuiko optics, and the newest DSLRs from Olympus will fit them with the adapter. Olympus stuff goes for much cheaper than Nikon, because Olympus didn't do as good a job brainwashing people as Nikon did. It is every bit as good though.

 

[Mike_E]

Sounds to me as though you've already talked yourself into a Nikon. I have a D200 and just recently bought a 135mm Nikkor Q f2.8 (?1967) for $30 plus shipping. This lens is a Pre-AI but has been "AI'd" which means that it now fits and I just program in the focal length and Minimum appature and it meters just fine. OBTW, it takes Beautiful photos.

I don't have any experience with fully manual Nikons but I do have an N8008, N70, and an N90s. On a good day you can get an N90s for$125. You can get an after market cable for around $10 which I believe allows you to lock the shutter open for about as long as you want. The N8008/s and the N90/s use regular AA batterys and the ones with the built in flash (Ns) use cr123s which can get expensive (but the N70 can take multiple exposures-not really needful in the age of Photoshop).

About the full sensor thing? Lenses that fit on a 35mm frame won't get much more resolution than is do-able now. Save you money for a medium format digital. Mamiya for instance.

"The Mamiya ZD and the Mamiya ZD Back come with a 36x48mm, 22 million-pixel CCD and generate stunning high resolution images with both rich and smooth tonal ranges. The 14 bit A/D (Analog to Digital) conversion records information as 12-bit per colour channel. The ASIC (Application Specific Integrated Circuit), which was developed exclusively for the Mamiya ZD and Mamiya ZD Back, processes in realtime, optimisation of image data from CC"

If you are stuck on a manual camera now and want a DSLR later, then Nikon is your only real answer. And for more information try here, they live to help LOL

http://www.nikonians.org/

Good luck,

mike

 

[fightheheathens]

hmmm..well this helps and doesnt help...:lmao:
Now im gonna look at the EOS's and other stuff like the Elan 7....
i thought this would be easy...just replace what i had, but now im
actually buying into a system with the intent to carry it into digital.

so new question, what cameras are built like tanks (weather sealed not plastic body) and/or
would give me long shutter times?
Also this camera must be able to use B&W IR film. (looking at the Elan 7NE on B&H, it says this camera cannot use Infra Red)
I guess i would take all those fancy bells and whistles if i saw the right camera.

i mean if worse comes to worse, later on i could always pick up a
pentax MX for 50 bucks on ebay with the 1.7 lens...
its not like i do stair trails all the time...

 

[usayit]

I want a mechanical camera for several reasons, One is that i like to do star trails and to the best of my knowledge you cant get extreamly long exposures with the electronic shutters. I recently did a star trail picture with a 5 hour shutter time.

Electronic shutters are not the issue. Its battery power. Not sure about 5 hours but I've heard of people holding the shutter open in "B"ulb mode for at least 2. This is in regards to DSLRs as they require power for the sensor. IIRC, a film SLR's Electronic shutter should have no problem running 5 hours open... I don't think it consumes power while open. Someone hopefully will give a definite answer.

I believe the AE-1 is weather sealed, I know the Pentax and Nikon are weather sealed, and while im not a pro, i do take my camera to bad places (Ocean/snow/rain/nature) and while i took my utmost caution to protect my camera, i was glad of its sturdy build.

I don't believe the AE-1 is weather sealed. It is also not completely mechanical as it was one of Canon's "CPU" controlled cameras. Not all cameras by any of those manufacturers were weather sealed (most were not).

thats another thing, the mechanical cameras were build like tanks,
i dont know about the elan 7 or such, but i have used both film and digital Rebel's and the latter model pentax's. They are made of plastic and feel flimsly to me.

Rebels and latter models of pentax's were focused on the consumer market and do have that plastic feel. You should see the Elan 7 (and others in its class) in person and decide yourself. My EOS 1v is every bit as tank proof as its older cousin the F1.

Further more, i absoutly hate auto focus for anything but fast action, and i hate auto modes except for something like fast action. even then ill only use aperature or shutter priority modes.

There's nothing forcing you to use auto focus... Elan 7 and all other camera's in its class now have aperture and shutter priority modes. I'm surprised you didn't mention metering...... can't compare today's TTL metering with yesteryears.... technology has greatly improved since the time of center-average. On the other hand, most present day bodies modes for center, center average, and some with spot on top of evaluative.

I probably wont start off with a zoom lens, I had a very nice 50mm lens and i would rather spend 300 dollars on an excellent 50mm lens then on a crap zoom lens. If i have a 50mm and a 24 or 28mm, i would be fine.
I never understood IS, why get a f/4 lens with is when i could just as easly get a 2.8 lens? wouldnt that cover the 2 or so stops that IS gives?

IS is not magic but it is proven technology which is why almost all the major players in photography equipment have adopted it in some form. Why get an IS with f/4 over plain f2.8? Just like anything else, there is an appropriate tool for the job. In some cases, the DOF of f/2.8 is just too shallow. In that case IS at f/4 or smaller will be of more benefit. Compactness is another... My 2.8 lens with IS is too large to be considered a walk around lens. Fine... no zoom. you didn't say that originally. All manufacturers have a fine selection of primes at all sorts of prices..

lastly, the Nikon F2 or Pentax MX will run me 100-250. maybe more for the Nikon...but not much. Both those cameras were professional cameras, why get a prosumer when i could get a professonal camera for the same price?

Those cameras are considered the best mechanical cameras ever made and having used rebels and other pentax's i just dont care for their overall feel. I almost never use my camera for anything but landscape or artistic type of shooting so autofocus, autoexposure, auto film advance are not necessary

I'd say Pentax LX... can't argue with you there... Yes they are some of hte best cameras made but technology has moved on. Your original post wanted to keep options moving into something with present day technology. On the other hand, everything about present day technology seems to churn your stomach. Getting a professional camera just for the sake that it is a professional doesn't really take people too far. Get the right tools for the job. Your requirements which keep most of your footing in the past but you some how want a doorway to easily step into present day (DSLR) are going to be difficult to meet.

About the best advice I can give yah is to stick with the old bodies you enjoy and love to use (replace them). If you need something digital, simply scan it with a good quality film scanner. Forget about a DSLR because all of the technology involved will just anger you. Consider MF as it is also reachable.

I own an extensive collection of manual SLRs (pentax, leica, canon). I understand how wonderful it can feel shooting with them... I enjoy shooting with the old metal tanks A LOT. That aside, I cannot ignore the fact that present technology (in my case Canon EOS) provides a very powerful and competent set of tools... in many situations better suited than all the camera's in my display case.

 

[fightheheathens]

I do appreciate all of your advise, it truely is helpful.
I think im partly stuck on, This was my first camera I learned to shoot on it and it was my dads for 30+ years, So i have all this sentament attached to it. Plus i feel responsible for loosing his 30 year old camera and feel like i should replace it. (as a side note, it officially was my camera, my dad gave it to me as a gift, but i still refer to it as my dads)

looking at what everyone said plus looking at stuff online, im not going with Pentax, I think their digital is a great camera and i would have strongly considered it had i not lost my older pentax. However, other then the LX and MX i havent been blown away by their other cameras.

That being said, i looked at the Elan series and it looks pretty sweet, Im not to sure about the eye focusing thing (where it knows where you are looking and focues on that) Im also not to keen on the view finder showing 91% of what is actually going to be in the picture, (pentax shows 97% and i think Nikon is around the same) but other then that, it looks like a nice camera.
And on the plus side, a lens that works with the Elan would work with the Canon DSLR's (right?)

As for all the bells and whistles....um, well if i hate them, i can always just use manual mode...
As to a question for that camera, am i able to change focusing screens? Im use to a Split prisim focusing screen and as i like to do manual focus. this is something i would replace on the camera if i could.

I've also looked into the Nikon FM series and i am deffinatly considering that. I know its a well built camera. my question here is this. I couldnt find exact answers on lens compatibality. Will a lens say on a Nikon FM2 work on a D80? or D200? That is, can a lens with autofocus that is fully functional on a D200/D80 be backwards compatible with the FM2?

I havent had time yet to look at the other nikon series but i think those bodies might be getting to expensive for me.

AS to Bulb, i was under the impression that the electronic shutters drained the battery, but i had heard that info from people who were talking about digital and i just assumed that the electronic shutters in film also drained the battery. so if this isnt true...

so now my job is to look at more nikons and canons and then go try to find some in stores and hold them, i think after i narrow it down and find out exactly how back compatible everything is i'll be able to go from there.

I dont want a zoom right now because mainly i want to get shooting again and i mostly shoot at 50mm or 28.
I dont think at this time a MF camera is going to be necessary, I do develope my own images in the dark room but they are 11X14 or 10X8 size and as i often shoot with fine grain film (PanF+ Delta100 and Tmax100) i dont think the extra resolution will be that noticable in a 10x8 or 11x14
Additionally i also do some band shooting in clubs and i think a MF camera might be a tad bulky even for me in that setting.

So thanks for all the info its been very helpful

 

[cherrymoose]

I just got a pretty much mint condition Pentax K1000 off of Ebay for $64.00 total. It's amazing, so far.

 

[DSLR noob]

canon has a 50mm f/1.8 for under $100 and it would work with the Elan and their DSLRs.

 

[usayit]

looking at what everyone said plus looking at stuff online, im not going with Pentax, I think their digital is a great camera and i would have strongly considered it had i not lost my older pentax. However, other then the LX and MX i havent been blown away by their other cameras.

An MX or LX with lenses with plans to go with the K10D is still a viable option. Don't forget that some of these manual bodies are getting pretty old. At some point in time they may or may not require CLA which is an added expense.

That being said, i looked at the Elan series and it looks pretty sweet, Im not to sure about the eye focusing thing (where it knows where you are looking and focues on that) Im also not to keen on the view finder showing 91% of what is actually going to be in the picture, (pentax shows 97% and i think Nikon is around the same) but other then that, it looks like a nice camera.
And on the plus side, a lens that works with the Elan would work with the Canon DSLR's (right?)

Eye focus thing is one of those features that people either love it or hate it. You can turn it off and set the focus point to the center. An Elan 7 will be cheaper as it does not have this feature. As long as you stick to EF (not EF-S) lenses, they should be fully compatible with either Canon EOS film or Canon EOS DSLR.

As to a question for that camera, am i able to change focusing screens? Im use to a Split prisim focusing screen and as i like to do manual focus. this is something i would replace on the camera if i could.

Replacable focus screens is going to be a tough one at least on Canon lines. Only the higher end pro camera bodies have that feature... (EOS 1, 1N, 1N-RS, 1V, 1V-HS, EOS 3, D2000 & 1D Series ) which is going to bit more expensive. Any nikonians out there can list options with focus screens?

I dont want a zoom right now because mainly i want to get shooting again and i mostly shoot at 50mm or 28.
I dont think at this time a MF camera is going to be necessary, I do develope my own images in the dark room but they are 11X14 or 10X8 size and as i often shoot with fine grain film (PanF+ Delta100 and Tmax100) i dont think the extra resolution will be that noticable in a 10x8 or 11x14
Additionally i also do some band shooting in clubs and i think a MF camera might be a tad bulky even for me in that setting.

So thanks for all the info its been very helpful

There's lots of high quality primes available in all systems. Canon EOS has 50mm f1.8 for only $80.. for more money there's f/1.4 and f/1.2 versions as well.

I see a noticable difference between 35mm enlargements and MF (645 and 67) enlargements to 10x8 and 11x14. (usually tmax 100). The detail captured in a larger negative is absolutely amazing. On the other hand, I could see the compact size of a 35mm being a better suited tool for shooting bands in clubs.

glad we all can give you options.

 

[DSLR noob]

There's lots of high quality primes available in all systems. Canon EOS has 50mm f1.8 for only $80.. for more money there's f/1.4 and f/1.2 versions as well.

For a while Canon also sold the ridiculous and expensive 50mm L f/1.0. And they currently sell a 50mm macro too.

 

[Don Simon]

If you are stuck on a manual camera now and want a DSLR later, then Nikon is your only real answer.

If by "only" you mean "except for Pentax"

fightheheathens, it sounds like you're not really sure what kind of system you want. I sympathise, I think the manual mechanical cameras of decades ago, which now sell for peanuts, do feel much more substantial and reliable. But as usayit said, the modern SLRs have some real advantages, specifically in metering. However you said you need to be able to shoot IR film, and many of the more modern SLRs will not allow this. It sounds to me like you may have to get a modern autofocus camera and an older mechanical one. The good news is of course that both can be had for very little money. Unfortunately the same cannot be said for the glass, unless you go for an 'obsolete' mount like the Canon or Minolta manual mounts, but then it would probably be better to go for manual and auto systems which share the same lens mount.