Cheapest option for auto FP flash, off camera.

[Destin]

Alright guys, I shoot high school basketball with 2 off camera flash units on stands. I'm currently shooting with a D80, an sb-600, and a yongnuo yn460 II flash unit. Both flashes are being triggered with ebay triggers (ctr-301p) My photos are coming out alright:

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It works great most of the time, however I would like to gain the ability to have auto fp off camera so I can use slightly higher shutter speeds.

I'd prefer to use a radio trigger vs IR, but it's all about budget.

Would an SU-800 even trigger the 600 with it slightly behind me and 25 feet to my right, on top of an 8 foot light stand? I only need to trigger the 600, because I can (and currently do) run the yongnuo as an optical slave and it works fine because it is angled slightly towards the 600.

Is there a cheaper option that I'm missing?

Thanks guys.

 

[KmH]

The SU-800 has better range than in-camera CLS.

You may already be aware of all this, but the flash duration of a SB-600 at full power is right about 1/1000 sec and will stop any sports action motion.

Here it is from page 88 of the SB-600 users manual:

1/900 sec. at M1/1 (full) output
1/1600 sec. at M1/2 output
1/3400 sec. at M1/4 output
1/6600 sec. at M1/8 output
1/11100 sec. at M1/16 output
1/20000 sec. at M1/32 output​

1/25000 sec. at M1/64 output

Auto FP sync cannot use a speedlight at full power because the speedlight has to flash several times during a single exposure and can't recharge nearly fast enough at full power output.
Because it has to flash several times for each exposure, it will also discharge batteries quickly.
The shutter is never fully open at shutter speeds shorter than the x-sync shutter speed for your camera, which is why FP sync requires multiple flashes during the exposure.

Non-Nikon flash units and eBay triggers won't be able to FP sync.

Your camera body, or a SU-800 will need to use Nikon's CLS Commander Mode to do off camera Auto FP sync with the SB-600. Auto FP sync is set in the camera, not the SB-600.

Pocket Wizards just recently announced they have finally produced radio triggers that can high speed sync with Nikon gear utilizing their MiniTT1 transmitter and FlexTT1 tranceivers. Radio Slaves

Pocketwizard® - Wireless transmitters and receivers

 

[Destin]

The SU-800 has better range than in-camera CLS.

You may already be aware of all this, but the flash duration of a SB-600 at full power is right about 1/1000 sec and will stop any sports action motion.

Here it is from page 88 of the SB-600 users manual:

1/900 sec. at M1/1 (full) output
1/1600 sec. at M1/2 output
1/3400 sec. at M1/4 output
1/6600 sec. at M1/8 output
1/11100 sec. at M1/16 output
1/20000 sec. at M1/32 output​

1/25000 sec. at M1/64 output

Auto FP sync cannot use a speedlight at full power because the speedlight has to flash several times during a single exposure and can't recharge nearly fast enough at full power output.
Because it has to flash several times for each exposure, it will also discharge batteries quickly.
The shutter is never fully open at shutter speeds shorter than the x-sync shutter speed for your camera, which is why FP sync requires multiple flashes during the exposure.

Non-Nikon flash units and eBay triggers won't be able to FP sync.

Your camera body, or a SU-800 will need to use Nikon's CLS Commander Mode to do off camera Auto FP sync with the SB-600. Auto FP sync is set in the camera, not the SB-600.

Pocket Wizards just recently announced they have finally produced radio triggers that can high speed sync with Nikon gear utilizing their MiniTT1 transmitter and FlexTT1 tranceivers. Radio Slaves

Pocketwizard® - Wireless transmitters and receivers

Thanks man. Your correct that the sb-600, in a dark room, would freeze sports action. The problem is that shooting basketball I want to keep the background properly exposed too. And even if I didn't want to, my sync speed of 1/200th forces me to keep it pretty bright (unless I turn down the iso, or stop down the aperture, both of which also affect flash exposure and therefore underexpose the whole photo.

Now, my sb-600 on 1/2 power, with 1/200th, f/5, and iso 800 looks great in most gyms, and freezes most motion. But I still get motion blur on the ball, and the players limbs because although the flash freezes them, my sync speed forces me to allow enough ambient in to give me some blur.

Anyone have any experience with using the SU-800 in a gym when the flash is 4-5 feet behind it and off to the side?

The new PW's are crazy expensive. I'm looking into a set of radio poppers but they aren't much cheaper. I'm hoping that the SU-800 will do the job, but I can't drop that kind of cash without knowing that it will.

 

[Robin Usagani]

Is it really necessary to do OCF on a basketball game? I mean the ball can hit your flash stand and break it. I havent done it yet but if I do it, I probably put it on the camera.

 

[KmH]

Is it really necessary to do OCF on a basketball game? I mean the ball can hit your flash stand and break it. I havent done it yet but if I do it, I probably put it on the camera.

It is if you want high quality photos.

 

[KmH]

....I'm hoping that the SU-800 will do the job, but I can't drop that kind of cash without knowing that it will.....

You could rent one, so you can test it.

https://www.lensrentals.com/rent/nikon/lighting/strobe-triggers/nikon-su-800-speedlight-commander

 

[table1349]

Is it really necessary to do OCF on a basketball game? I mean the ball can hit your flash stand and break it. I havent done it yet but if I do it, I probably put it on the camera.

No you don't have to have OCF to get great shots at a basketball game. I have no problem at all with my 1D MkIV or 1D MkIII and fast top quality primes. But then I am shooting college instead of high school and the venue light is better plus the bennifits of top quality bodies.

In lesser venues I use OFC. Most venues I shoot would never allow on camera flash. At least not from where I am shooting at the base line. Can be distracting for the players.

I also never put my OFC on light stands on the floor. At the home arena I shoot there is a landing 10 feet above the floor with a nice guard rail. Two strobes on Superclamps with PW's, one on either side of the backboard. Two other strobes on superclams attached to Manfrotto friction arms off of the pipe railing at the same height on either side of the court, again with PW's. I have never had an issue with my gear here. One way or another my OFC lights are up on the walls or other places so they are not attached to anything on the floor. I normally arrive an hour or 2 hours ahead of the game if necessary to set up my gear so it is not in anyones way.

Alll 4 have battery packs attached to them for recycle speed and usually I am using only 1/16 to 1/32 power. I am just adding a bit more light to the action, not relying on the light heavly.

 

[Destin]

Is it really necessary to do OCF on a basketball game? I mean the ball can hit your flash stand and break it. I havent done it yet but if I do it, I probably put it on the camera.

No you don't have to have OCF to get great shots at a basketball game. I have no problem at all with my 1D MkIV or 1D MkIII and fast top quality primes. But then I am shooting college instead of high school and the venue light is better plus the bennifits of top quality bodies.

In lesser venues I use OFC. Most venues I shoot would never allow on camera flash. At least not from where I am shooting at the base line. Can be distracting for the players.

I also never put my OFC on light stands on the floor. At the home arena I shoot there is a landing 10 feet above the floor with a nice guard rail. Two strobes on Superclamps with PW's, one on either side of the backboard. Two other strobes on superclams attached to Manfrotto friction arms off of the pipe railing at the same height on either side of the court, again with PW's. I have never had an issue with my gear here.

Alll 4 have battery packs attached to them for recycle speed and usually I am using only 1/16 to 1/32 power. I am just adding a bit more light to the action, not relying on the light heavly.

I would love to have the luxury of a landing in m home gym. The wall is only 3 feet from the end of the court, shooting on the baseline has me pinned againts a wall a foot from the court. Some ref's don't even allow my to be there. Most don't mind at all.

I'm shooting cheap gear compared to you lol. I run 2 speedlights on stands, 10 feet from the corner of the court, aimed over the top of the key. They are usually on 1/8th to 1/4 power.

Someday I'll have the luxury of better venues and equipment hopefully!!

 

[table1349]

Is it really necessary to do OCF on a basketball game? I mean the ball can hit your flash stand and break it. I havent done it yet but if I do it, I probably put it on the camera.

No you don't have to have OCF to get great shots at a basketball game. I have no problem at all with my 1D MkIV or 1D MkIII and fast top quality primes. But then I am shooting college instead of high school and the venue light is better plus the bennifits of top quality bodies.

In lesser venues I use OFC. Most venues I shoot would never allow on camera flash. At least not from where I am shooting at the base line. Can be distracting for the players.

I also never put my OFC on light stands on the floor. At the home arena I shoot there is a landing 10 feet above the floor with a nice guard rail. Two strobes on Superclamps with PW's, one on either side of the backboard. Two other strobes on superclams attached to Manfrotto friction arms off of the pipe railing at the same height on either side of the court, again with PW's. I have never had an issue with my gear here.

Alll 4 have battery packs attached to them for recycle speed and usually I am using only 1/16 to 1/32 power. I am just adding a bit more light to the action, not relying on the light heavly.

I would love to have the luxury of a landing in m home gym. The wall is only 3 feet from the end of the court, shooting on the baseline has me pinned againts a wall a foot from the court. Some ref's don't even allow my to be there. Most don't mind at all.

I'm shooting cheap gear compared to you lol. I run 2 speedlights on stands, 10 feet from the corner of the court, aimed over the top of the key. They are usually on 1/8th to 1/4 power.

Someday I'll have the luxury of better venues and equipment hopefully!!

Yes top quality gear can make things easier, it is not a necessity. Two things I would suggest.

#1. Faster glass. Probably a prime or two. The difference in 1.8 to 2.8 is very noticeable and usable for indoor sports and will provide the bokeh that makes action really pop of the page.

#2. Add a couple of cheap strobes on the sides of the court. More light fill will cut down on the shadows that can be produced from two base line lights. They can even be triggered with optical slaves and will allow you to lower the power settings for all the strobes thus giving you faster recycle times.

 

[Destin]

No you don't have to have OCF to get great shots at a basketball game. I have no problem at all with my 1D MkIV or 1D MkIII and fast top quality primes. But then I am shooting college instead of high school and the venue light is better plus the bennifits of top quality bodies.

In lesser venues I use OFC. Most venues I shoot would never allow on camera flash. At least not from where I am shooting at the base line. Can be distracting for the players.

I also never put my OFC on light stands on the floor. At the home arena I shoot there is a landing 10 feet above the floor with a nice guard rail. Two strobes on Superclamps with PW's, one on either side of the backboard. Two other strobes on superclams attached to Manfrotto friction arms off of the pipe railing at the same height on either side of the court, again with PW's. I have never had an issue with my gear here.

Alll 4 have battery packs attached to them for recycle speed and usually I am using only 1/16 to 1/32 power. I am just adding a bit more light to the action, not relying on the light heavly.

I would love to have the luxury of a landing in m home gym. The wall is only 3 feet from the end of the court, shooting on the baseline has me pinned againts a wall a foot from the court. Some ref's don't even allow my to be there. Most don't mind at all.

I'm shooting cheap gear compared to you lol. I run 2 speedlights on stands, 10 feet from the corner of the court, aimed over the top of the key. They are usually on 1/8th to 1/4 power.

Someday I'll have the luxury of better venues and equipment hopefully!!

Yes top quality gear can make things easier, it is not a necessity. Two things I would suggest.

#1. Faster glass. Probably a prime or two. The difference in 1.8 to 2.8 is very noticeable and usable for indoor sports and will provide the bokeh that makes action really pop of the page.

#2. Add a couple of cheap strobes on the sides of the court. More light fill will cut down on the shadows that can be produced from two base line lights. They can even be triggered with optical slaves and will allow you to lower the power settings for all the strobes thus giving you faster recycle times.

Faster glass.. almost all of my shots are from the base line with a 50m 1.8. I use my 70-200 2.8 on rare occasions when I need tighter shots.

I absolutely agree about the strobes on the side of the court though. I'll get some more in a few weeks. The only problem with optical slaves is that parents trigger my flash with their point and shoots. Alot. So I'd probabaly drop $50 on 3 more receivers. It's not like I'm using PW's haha. Thanks man!

 

[table1349]

I was wondering if you were using the 50. The f4.5 in your shot made me wonder. I never get above f2.8 as I want that shallow DOF that just captures the action.

I don't have a problem with my optical triggers. They are up about 12 feet and near the back wall on each side. The little on camera don't seem to register from across the court.

 

[Destin]

I was wondering if you were using the 50. The f4.5 in your shot made me wonder. I never get above f2.8 as I want that shallow DOF that just captures the action.

I don't have a problem with my optical triggers. They are up about 12 feet and near the back wall on each side. The little on camera don't seem to register from across the court.

Yeah, the reason for f4.5 was that I had my flashes set too high, and didn't take the time to go turn them down so I had to stop down. Looking back, lowering the iso would have been a better option, but that seems to affect the ambient in the background more than aperture for some reason (i know it probably affects it equally)