Comment and critique

[jake337]

I read this "Comment and Critique 101" thread on another forum and thought some people may find it interesting.

Comment & Critique 101 - Open Photography Forums

 

[Gaerek]

2. Be positive
C&C does not mean that we only have to talk about what we don’t like. Even a bad picture shall have some positive aspects. So start by mentioning what you like. And then move on to the parts which can be improved (notice that I did not say parts which are bad).

And after this, we can all tell everyone that the photos of their dog, they took from eye level straight down, with on-camera flash, are super neat-o! /sarcasm

I'm all for positive reinforcement, but, sometimes, a bad photo is just that...a bad photo. If it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it's not a whale. It's a duck. We're here to help each other learn from their mistakes, not tell them how awesome their mediocre photograph is.

(And now you see one reason I'm not a member of OPF.)

 

[skieur]

The quote by the OP is just a personal opinion. The standard Critique is divided into 2 areas: composition and technique. Composition is the artistic side related to the content. Technique is the technical side. The emphasis is on realistic, objective comments, minimizing personal likes or dislikes.

skieur

 

[Ryan L]

I read this "Comment and Critique 101" thread on another forum and thought it may help here.

Comment & Critique 101 - Open Photography Forums

Really we could do more of this, ehh but what fun would that be?

 

[pgriz]

Doing a good critique is like taking a good photograph. It takes some skill, investment of effort, some talent at expression, and some insight. The more one does it, the better one gets. It also helps to have a structured approach to make sure nothing of importance got missed, which I think is the point of the post that the OP linked to. And in doing a good critique, we also educate ourselves, formulating in words the emotions and ideas that otherwise we would not have been able to express.

 

[jake337]

2. Be positive
C&C does not mean that we only have to talk about what we don’t like. Even a bad picture shall have some positive aspects. So start by mentioning what you like. And then move on to the parts which can be improved (notice that I did not say parts which are bad).

And after this, we can all tell everyone that the photos of their dog, they took from eye level straight down, with on-camera flash, are super neat-o! /sarcasm

I'm all for positive reinforcement, but, sometimes, a bad photo is just that...a bad photo. If it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it's not a whale. It's a duck. We're here to help each other learn from their mistakes, not tell them how awesome their mediocre photograph is.

(And now you see one reason I'm not a member of OPF.)

Congrats!

And no, they don't tell you your picture of your dog, took from eye level straight down, with on camera flash, are super neat. But they may find something positive in the photograph, tell you why it's positive, and how you can expand/explore that in your next attempt.

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

:roll:

 

[jake337]

This was not meant to be some guideline for TPF. I'm particular to the conclusion.

Conclusions
This should give any novice in C&C enough pointers towards getting started. Now please go out and react to others’ pictures. If we all do it, our own pictures will be reacted upon as well.

Critique is as individualistic as photography. For someone, who is new to photography, this may help them develop some structure to their critique.

 

[Gaerek]

Congrats!

And no, they don't tell you your picture of your dog, took from eye level straight down, with on camera flash, are super neat. But they may find something positive in the photograph, tell you why it's positive, and how you can expand/explore that in your next attempt.

I picked that example for a reason. It's because that type of photo usually has nothing redeeming about it. One might say, "Well, it's in focus, that's redeeming!" The problem, is that kind of photo has no thought put into it, it looks like what every novice photographer does when they shoot their pets, and frankly, the fact that it's in focus does not take away from the fact that it's a terrible photo.

I probably wouldn't tell them outright that it was a terrible photo, but I can say for certain that I would tell them what's wrong and how to fix it.

The problem doesn't lie in how critique is given, but how its received. If you ask for c&c, you had better be prepared to have your shot torn apart. If you want to hear positives, show the photo to your co-workers so they can tell you how cute your dog is. However, if you want to get better, man (or woman) up, don't take it personally, and realize people are only trying to help you be a better photographer.

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

So, Jake, you already posted this in an existing thread: Constructive Criticsm on TPF

Why did you have to start another thread on the same thing?

 

[aimee0508]

Congrats!

And no, they don't tell you your picture of your dog, took from eye level straight down, with on camera flash, are super neat. But they may find something positive in the photograph, tell you why it's positive, and how you can expand/explore that in your next attempt.

I picked that example for a reason. It's because that type of photo usually has nothing redeeming about it. One might say, "Well, it's in focus, that's redeeming!" The problem, is that kind of photo has no thought put into it, it looks like what every novice photographer does when they shoot their pets, and frankly, the fact that it's in focus does not take away from the fact that it's a terrible photo.

I probably wouldn't tell them outright that it was a terrible photo, but I can say for certain that I would tell them what's wrong and how to fix it.

The problem doesn't lie in how critique is given, but how its received. If you ask for c&c, you had better be prepared to have your shot torn apart. If you want to hear positives, show the photo to your co-workers so they can tell you how cute your dog is. However, if you want to get better, man (or woman) up, don't take it personally, and realize people are only trying to help you be a better photographer.

****hehehehe, such as above is why I remain a lurker until I feel my work is adequate I am for SURE, just the amature who only gets the positiveness from coworkers!!! I have a lot of work to do. But the simple fact is, TAKE IT and WORK TO IT!!! The criticism is not about 'YOU' as a person!! It is about the photograph and the ABILITY the photographer utilized to shoot it!! People take things way too personal, here, and in every day life. The difference is KNOWING when your shot is just adequate, or just a 'point and shoot, or when you have something to work with'. When you actually make the effort and it is not just a simple snapshot, then post for criticism for usefulness!!! NO, I am not yelling, I just like caps and exclamation points, hehehehe. And I take every CC with a grain of salt, on this board, causing me to move foward and learn, or just to forget. As it should be. OK.....of my high horse now, lol

 

[jake337]

Thought it would be better off here. I should have asked to have it moved. It seemed like a good place under lews post. I thought it might be a good read and beginners might not catch it on the other thread. Apologies

 

[Gaerek]

****hehehehe, such as above is why I remain a lurker until I feel my work is adequate I am for SURE, just the amature who only gets the positiveness from coworkers!!! I have a lot of work to do. But the simple fact is, TAKE IT and WORK TO IT!!! The criticism is not about 'YOU' as a person!! It is about the photograph and the ABILITY the photographer utilized to shoot it!! People take things way too personal, here, and in every day life. The difference is KNOWING when your shot is just adequate, or just a 'point and shoot, or when you have something to work with'. When you actually make the effort and it is not just a simple snapshot, then post for criticism for usefulness!!! NO, I am not yelling, I just like caps and exclamation points, hehehehe. And I take every CC with a grain of salt, on this board, causing me to move foward and learn, or just to forget. As it should be. OK.....of my high horse now, lol

Allow me to give you a little "critique" if I may.

First, let me ask you a question. Do you wish to get better at photography?

If your answer is yes, then you have nothing to lose by posting photos here. We have three kinds of posters who give C&C here. Let me tell you how to recognize them, and how to handle them.

1. The @**hole - This person pops on, says some derivitive of "Your shot sucks" or "It's a snapshot" or "Maybe you should pick up a different hobby" and that's it. You can simply ignore these people. Luckily, there are very few of these people around, and they are easy to identify/ignore.
2. The Helpful Newbie - This is a person who hasn't been shooting long, but wants to try to help. There comments are mostly fluff, and no meat. Comments such as "Wow, that sky is beautiful!" or "I like the colors!" or "It's cool how you got the background so out of focus!!" or similar are what you'll see from them. Usually, they won't make many objective comments, mostly because they don't know themselves, or are intimidated to do so. I have no problem with these types of commentators, as long as you can see their C&C skills improving. Ignore if you want, but asking them for more critique is sometimes helpful for getting them out of their shell.
3. The Veteran - This is the person that will give you helpful, honest critique. They will tell you what you did wrong, and how to fix it. They might ask you questions, such as, "Why did you compose your shot like that?" or "Why was your ISO so high?" or something similar. These aren't necessarily meant to be answered, but instead, be thought provoking questions so you can understand more about how to do what you're doing. These are the people who will help you the most. These are also the people who get criticized most by newer photographers. People have a tendency to post a pic for C&C because they want to know how awesome their photo is. But when someone (who knows what they're talking about) rips is apart, they get defensive.

So, like I said, please post, if you wish to get better. You may hear some negative things, you don't want to hear, but it will make you a better photographer. You actually have a great attitude towards criticism, and if you keep that up, you will learn quickly. But you must not be afraid to post!

 

[Gaerek]

I thought I might post something that I posted over a year ago here, somewhat on the same topic. It was a well received post, and most people liked what I had to say. Unfortunately, the thread got locked 6 or 7 months after I posted it because someone (now banned) had decided to bring off-topic drama into it. So I won't actually link to the thread. But I will quote what I posted. Mods, I'm posting this to help newer people, and that thread wasn't locked because of this post. If you want me to delete it, I will, or you can do it, but the content of this post was not the reason that post was locked.

I had posted this in response to a trend I had been noticing. You'll get the context from the post...

When I first started posting here, if someone posted a photo for C&C, you could usually, within the first 2 or 3 replies get some honest and direct feedback on your photo. A trend I've seen lately, as highlighted by some recent threads (that I will not mention here) is saying "Good job!" or "Nice Shot!" to what can be called mediocre, or even bad photographs. The justification to this is usually one of two things:

1) "I'm not really experienced, and cannot give good feedback, but I like the shot!"
2) "I don't want to hurt the feelings of a new photographer with negative feedback!"

Although these all seem like legitimate excuses for poor C&C, which, by the way stands for Comments & Critique (emphasis intended), they really aren't. Let me address each of these individually.

1) We were all new. We were all inexperienced. We all, at one time, would have trouble giving good feedback on a shot. Of the two, this one is probably the most legitimate. I personally have no problem with this excuse. I believe in order to become a better photographer yourself, you need to be able to look at someone else’s work and give honest feedback. If the extent of your C&C is, “I’m not very experienced so I don’t know if I can help you get better, but I like your shot,” then so be it! There is a caveat to this. If this is the only C&C you are giving, you are doing a disservice to your fellow photographers. Just as photographers photos should get progressively better the more they shoot, your C&C should be progressively better the more you post. Learn as much about the technical and compositional aspects of photography as possible, then apply that when giving C&C.

2) I've actually seen this excuse before, and of the two, this one makes my blood boil. Let's say Jim (a fictional Jim) goes to the Doctors office because he's feeling sick. The Doctor checks Jim out and realizes that Jim has a week left to live. Jim says, "So Doc, what's wrong with me?" (Jim is basically asking for C&C on his health). The Doctor answers, "Jim, you're as fit as a fiddle, and there's nothing wrong with you." (In essence, the Doctor is giving Jim bad C&C) Jim leaves the Doctor's office in a great mood, and very happy, even though he doesn't know it, he will die in a week. When a collegue asks the Doctor why he didn't tell the truth, the Doctor just says, "I didn't want to hurt Jim's feelings by telling him he was going to die."

It's a great thing, to make people happy. Unfortunately, if it's at the expense of helping them become a better photographer, you are hurting them in the long run, and may frustrate them out of this great hobby. Telling someone they took a good photo for the simple sake that it will make them feel good doesn't let them grow. If you want them to be a better photographer, and want them to be happier as a photographer in the future, then you need to give honest, direct feedback. Do you need to be snarky or rude? No, but just because someone gives nothing but negative feedback doesn't mean it's bad feedback and shouldn't be listened to.

I thank all of the people who gave me direct and honest feedback when I was first beginning. Did I get my feelings hurt? Sometimes. Did I take things personally? At first, yep. Did I eventually realize that these people were only trying to help me, and that they weren't attacking me as a person? Yes, of course.

One thing I continually hear is people saying that this is a beginners forum, and there are going to be a lot of bad shots. Because of this, people should be nicer. Unfortunately, this is a classic straw man. No one here has ever denied that. No one (that I know of) has told someone to post better pictures in the Beginners forum. The problem is people getting defensive about their photo being critiqued honestly, and not applying what people have told them they should do. Most of the time when even the most rude and abrasive posters (and you know who you are ;-)) give critique to a new photographer for the first time, it’s actually pretty good, and they aren’t rude. They only get that way after it’s obvious this poster isn’t listening to the feedback he’s given. Here's an example of the problem, as I've observed it.

1) New user posts pictures. He thinks they're great and he'll get lots of praise.
2) Veteran photographer/poster replies and gives honest and direct C&C about the flaws of the shot, and how it can be made better.
3) New user gets defensive and says that those flaws pointed out by the veteran were intentional, and that critique on those isn’t valid.
4) Veteran posts again stating that even if the flaws he pointed out earlier were intentional, the photo, because of those flaws, intentional or not, still isn't good.
5) Goody two shoes poster, who isn't very experienced, and just wants to make everyone happy chimes in with something along the lines of, "Don't let the Internet bullies get to you. You had a great shot for a beginner, and don't let anyone tell you different!"
6) New user replies to goody two shoes with, Thanks for the kind words, I knew they were good shots, I appreciate your C&C.
7) New user continues to post new threads, with new photos, without listening to good feedback, and without improvement.
8) Veterans, who are tired of trying to help new user out, quit replying to his threads, and new user starts to only receive "Good shot!" and "Nice Work! I like your photo!" without ever improving.

Please don’t insult my intelligence and say this hasn’t happened, because it does and has happened. I’ve seen it as recent as this last weekend. Let me end this thread with a few tips for giving and receiving C&C.

Giving C&C
1) Point out flaws in photo, while explaining how to go about fixing flaws
2) If there’s something you like, mention it
3) There's no need to be rude, or snarky, if someone isn't listening, just stop trying to help them

Pretty simple and straightforward.

Receiving C&C
1) Don’t take it personally! People are trying to help you and negative (but constructive!) C&C isn’t a reflection on you as a person, just you as a beginning and learning photographer
2) The people giving C&C were in your shoes before, and its comments like what they’re giving that will make you better. Don’t alienate them simply because you perceive what they are saying as rude, or abrasive.
3) Ask for clarification if you aren’t sure what they are talking about
4) Remember that emotion is difficult to convey on the Internet. Something may come out as rude, but was never intentioned that way. Give the benefit of the doubt!
5) Thank them (or click the ‘Thank’ button) for the time they spent help YOU become a better photographer

Please, I encourage everyone who reads this to just think about it. Maybe you don’t agree, but that’s ok, you’re allowed to not agree. I just want this to be a place of learning and growing as photographers, not a place where we sit around the campfire singing Kumbaya telling each other how great our mediocrity is.

 

[jake337]

@ Gaerek- Nice. This is why I posted it the link. It's just like C&C. One could read it. Then decide what parts could work for you. I agree one main problem is how C&C is recieved.

Also, like you wrote, even if someone just posts "nice shot" or "cool colors", it is up to the OP of the thread to ask that person why they liked these in order to get more feedback and also help the critiquer improve their feedback in the future.