Darkroom or Lightroom?

[smoke665]

yep, I've done the YouTube search and yes there are some good tutorials.
But it's always nice to hear from the photographers here and there

Because each image has its own unique editing requirements, generic comments and suggestions don't really give you much. That's why I suggested opening it up and trying it. If you get stuck come back here and post a new thread with specific questions here: Graphics Programs and Photo Gallery

 

[Ysarex]

This was a crop off the edge of an image, I purposely picked it because it bordered on the extreme, especially the car. LR "guesses" what's behind the car by analyzing the whole scene, and composing an image to replace what you remove. I didn't do it here, but multiple passes (rather than a single stroke) with the Remove Tool will refine the area, much the same way you have to refine a patch or clone stamp in PS to blend properly. I purposely included the original to make it easier to spot places it messed up on, I'm surprised you missed the most glaring (removed the window behind the pole, replaced with shutters). Also, in the original there was no water or rock wall showing around the car, LR created it from a tiny sliver visible under the house. Still had I not included the original or told you what I removed, you'd be hard pressed to see the errors. I've found it to be extremely fast and very good at removing smaller less complex items.


As per above, our editing requirements are very different. On a finished portrait in PS I'll have from 5 to 15 layers on the face group alone, throw in adjustment layers, tone mapping, textures, sharpening, composite layers and assorted other edits, you quickly end up with a large stack, that might take 2-3 hrs or more to complete. I've been doing this many years so "I don't reinvent the wheel" on each edit, my workflow is such that I use actions to populate the stack and perform certain functions, and once I have the first image in a series complete, I copy and paste layers to subsequent images to save time, but many layers like D&B, frequency separations, blemishes, etc., require individual attention.

Yes editing nondestructive is good..... to a point, but carrying it to the extreme, almost a fanatical obsession is not required.

Nothing fanatical about buying a raw processor that can complete all required edits of an image non-destructively and being satisfied with the result.

As I said earlier, I can't remember a single instance of editing thousands of images in PS over the years where there was any problem editing in it. Adobe Camera Raw (available in both LR & PS) is non-destructive same as C1. If it's embedded as a smart object in PS it can be changed at any time.

Yes, LR and ACR are 100% non-destructive. The problem is PS which is not and the problem is LR and ACR when their tools aren't up to the task and force you to PS where your editing becomes destructive.

It's not a big issue for you; it is for me and I can avoid the problem easily so why not then.

Interesting quote from Martin Evening's 10 page comparison of Adobe and C1 published in 2016 - “Capture One’s philosophy is to produce a more optimized look that doesn’t necessarily require further editing. This may have led to the perception that Capture One is sharper and punchier, but in reality neither program is inherently better than the other when it comes to actually working on your images and adjusting the settings to suit individual tastes.” For me I'm happy with Adobe because it fits my needs, obviously you feel different, doesn't make either of us right or wrong in our approach.....just different.

 

[Ysarex]

Right you guys are obviously not beginners like myself.
I've now downloaded the free version of Affinity photo 2 in the hope of being a capable editor
anyone here have any comments for me please?
Bob

If you're saving and processing raw files (best option) Affinity has some serious weaknesses and many AP users supplement AP with a different raw converter. RawTherapee is free and a good choice in that regard.

 

[smoke665]

It's not a big issue for you; it is for me and I can avoid the problem easily so why not then.

I've actually learned a thing or two from your technical expertise, but my understanding of "why" it's such a big deal for you is lacking. I've talked to other pro and hobbyists alike none of which seem as focused on nondestructive editing as you. Maybe we need to open a new thread on the subject and dig into it deeper.

 

[Ysarex]

I've actually learned a thing or two from your technical expertise, but my understanding of "why" it's such a big deal for you is lacking. I've talked to other pro and hobbyists alike none of which seem as focused on nondestructive editing as you. Maybe we need to open a new thread on the subject and dig into it deeper.

I often return to my editing work and decide to change/improve what I originally did. Here's an example. I took the photo back in April and edited it then:

Recently I was looking for some images and saw what I had done with this one and decided to improve it. When that happens I start spittin' nails if I have to start over with the edit because it was done destructively. In this case I only needed to add a layer and modify an existing layer. Because the original edit was done 100% non-destructively everything updated my two changes and I didn't have to redo any of the prior editing. That's how I want to be able to work.

 

[Thiophilos]

If you're saving and processing raw files (best option) Affinity has some serious weaknesses and many AP users supplement AP with a different raw converter. RawTherapee is free and a good choice in that regard.

As far as I know, you can't save a raw file.

 

[Ysarex]

As far as I know, you can't save a raw file.

You can if you set your camera to save raw files. That's what I meant.

 

[smoke665]

. In this case I only needed to add a layer and modify an existing layer. B

What were the layers? In a PSD file where you've saved your layers you can reopen and make changes to adjustment layers to your hearts content. If you're adjusting a clone stamp layer that's been direct edited (not good practice) and you haven't converted it to a smart object you could be locked in, or if you flatten the file when done editing (again bad practice) you're locked. I've routinely edited PSD files over the years adding to subtracting from, without issue when I want to try something new. In any case we've probably gone off thread enough on the subject. Two Missouri Mules at the same trough and there's only one bite of oats left.

 

[Ysarex]

What were the layers?

C1 also uses a layer model. The two changes I made to that file were to open an already existing layer that contained a mask for the sky and I decided to darken the sky a little more. The big change was to create a new luminosity layer for the shadow area of the image and set a different WB for only the shadows (something LR can't do by the way).

In a PSD file where you've saved your layers you can reopen and make changes to adjustment layers to your hearts content. If you're adjusting a clone stamp layer that's been direct edited (not good practice) and you haven't converted it to a smart object you could be locked in, or if you flatten the file when done editing (again bad practice) you're locked. I've routinely edited PSD files over the years adding to subtracting from, without issue when I want to try something new. In any case we've probably gone off thread enough on the subject. Two Missouri Mules at the same trough and there's only one bite of oats left.

 

[JoolsW]

Surely you just do incremental saves (diff filenames) as you go?

 

[CapNBall]

Right you guys are obviously not beginners like myself.
I've now downloaded the free version of Affinity photo 2 in the hope of being a capable editor
anyone here have any comments for me please?
Bob

Just play with it. Play, play, play. Don't start with work that matters, just do fun stuff and experiment. Find a tutorial that shows something, do that, then try something else. Pretty soon you'll get an idea how to mix and match techniques to get a result. If you see a particular image done with Photoshop, figure out what the technique is called and you'll probably be able to find a tutorial on doing the same thing with Affinity (like frequency separation).
The biggest thing is to not be afraid to just experiment on stuff that doesn't matter. Have fun with it!

 

[Ysarex]

Surely you just do incremental saves (diff filenames) as you go?

No. Non-destructive editing requires that all adjustments to the image remain available for re-edit non-linearly and any re-edit will update the entire edit.

 

[JoolsW]

Yes, play! I used PSD since it was invented. Moving to Affinity Photo has been excellent, and released my from the Adobe noose. As far as I can see it's just as good as PSD in so many ways. Trust me, Affinity will do EVERYTHING you need it to do.
BUT I have to admit there are plenty of things that, because I'm so familiar with PSD, certain methods frustrate me, because naturally the methods are sometimes different. But if you're not steeped in Photoshop, learning Affinity will be easier. There are lots of instruction vids on the internet. Remember, all of these very 'deep' applications take a lot of work to learn... because there's so much to learn.

 

[JoolsW]

"No. Non-destructive editing requires that all adjustments to the image remain available for re-edit non-linearly and any re-edit will update the entire edit".

Different strokes for different folks as they say....
Can I just say, that getting buried into "non destructive editing" and things of that sort, will not be helping this feller. He is a beginner, and needs encouragement, not highly technical barriers to worry about. KISS principal first eh?

 

[Ysarex]

"No. Non-destructive editing requires that all adjustments to the image remain available for re-edit non-linearly and any re-edit will update the entire edit".

Different strokes for different folks as they say....
Can I just say, that getting buried into "non destructive editing" and things of that sort, will not be helping this feller. He is a beginner, and needs encouragement, not highly technical barriers to worry about. KISS principal first eh?

No, better, more efficient and more effective ways to work versus less efficient and less effective ways to work is more than just different strokes.