File Question about Elements Digital Software

Ysarex

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But even if you are right, which you seem to be before I test myself - this is still true:

"Compression from the JPEG to the tiff has the original loss saved already. Nothing can be done about that."

Continuing to edit and have "further issues" is just extended results of the original compression. There's no NEW compression being done, so for Marc's question, as long as he gets out of JPEG right away (or skips JPEG completely if he has RAW files), then no, there is no continued degradation just from using the software.
Yes there is. Just because it's the original compression grid biting you from the original camera save doesn't mean you're not experiencing degradation in the image from using the software editing tools. In fact this is the more severe and damaging degradation.
At least not in the sense people are referring to when they ask about lossy compression.
People don't understand. They think they can convert a JPEG to a TIFF and not experience further degradation due to the JPEG compression. They are mistaken.
 

jadin

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Yes there is. Just because it's the original compression grid biting you from the original camera save doesn't mean you're not experiencing degradation in the image from using the software editing tools. In fact this is the more severe and damaging degradation.

People don't understand. They think they can convert a JPEG to a TIFF and not experience further degradation due to the JPEG compression. They are mistaken.

That's fine. But if the only file they have access to is a JPEG, then there's nothing left for them to do but get out of JPEG as soon as possible. It's that or not edit the file ever again. So again, just for people like Marc, I think the original answers are best. There is no additional degradation due to further compression.

And I'm pretty sure that's all that anyone like Marc cares about. Although he can certainly correct me if I'm putting words in his mouth.
 

Ysarex

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That's fine. But if the only file they have access to is a JPEG, then there's nothing left for them to do but get out of JPEG as soon as possible. It's that or not edit the file ever again. So again, just for people like Marc, I think the original answers are best. There is no additional degradation due to further compression.
The question wasn't about further compression. This was the question: "then when you are using the various tools in say Elements, does your picture continue to lose detail as you use the program?" And the answer is yes.
And I'm pretty sure that's all that anyone like Marc cares about. Although he can certainly correct me if I'm putting words in his mouth.
 

jadin

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I'm still not convinced.

Are the artifacts more noticeable? Sure.

But is there more degradation? Like at all? Not that I'm seeing.

The same artifacts are in both. No difference.

These are the changes I made if you are curious.

But no matter what, I'm done with this. What a waste of time.
 

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Ysarex

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I'm still not convinced.

Are the artifacts more noticeable? Sure.
That is degradation. JPEG works by hiding the compression grid. Edit changes to tone and color after the original lossy compression make the grid visible in the form of mottling noise and banding in the image.
But is there more degradation?
If you didn't see it before and you do see it now as you say, "more noticeable" then of course.
Like at all? Not that I'm seeing.

The same artifacts are in both. No difference.
Big difference: JPEG has effectively rendered the artifacts nearly invisible. Editing makes them more visible -- that's degradation.
These are the changes I made if you are curious.
The edit changes you made have degraded the image by adding mottling artifacts to the sky. It is clearly visible. Continued editing of tone/color will cause continued degradation.
But no matter what, I'm done with this. What a waste of time.
At least you learned something ;-)
 
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Marc Hildebrant

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This discussion has been very useful to me, and I have learned quite a bit from the deep technical dive.

Marc
 

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