Fujifilm RAWs Vs film simulation modes and theirs JPGs

ntz

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Hello,

I am struggling a bit to understand how am I supposed to use the FUJ's film simulation modes. As a lifetime Nikon shooter I never used a JPGs, just never. I shoot to RAWs + JPGs but I use a JPGs only for sorting and quick reviewing of what I have but in reality, beyond looking on JPGs I never worked with them. I am interested the most into the B&W film-like modes but it seems to me that I am getting better results when I just process the Fuji RAF image as usual and convert that into B&W during the postprocess ... here is the example (see please an attached files).

So my questions are:

1) do you ever edit the SOOC JPGs with Fuji's film simulation modes, they tend to be usually flatter that their potential is but after editing, it's different image, isn't it ? and isn't it silly to edit JPGs like that ?
2) if so, what kind of edits are acceptable to preserve the simulation which is not just the matter of few sliders
3) also perhaps it's the issue with my software, but I find a FUJI's RAWs with shifted colours a lot of time, especially blue-ish or purple-ish, I don't have any special setting in the camera, all zeros (saturation, sharpening, whatever else), perhaps it's related to that I always shoot with some film-like mode enabled (in reality switching mostly 95% of time between ACROS-R and Classic Chrome), not sure how exactly it works, but the RAF previews appear to adopt the style, so for example in my operating system I just have a B&W preview for RAFs if ACROS-R was used, but once I click on them and open them for processing (I use RawTherapee mostly, Darktable doesn't work a good for them at all and I have same "issue" in LR as well and I simply prefer RT over the LR anyway), they open in colour and the initial curves are deducted I believe from bundled JPEG profile so initial look in RAW editor is often fancy (or just horrible / bad). So my last question is, do I have to use a standard profile with FUJI camera when I intend to work with RAWs ?

thanks and regards, ~dan
 

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Ysarex

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Hello,

I am struggling a bit to understand how am I supposed to use the FUJ's film simulation modes. As a lifetime Nikon shooter I never used a JPGs, just never. I shoot to RAWs + JPGs but I use a JPGs only for sorting and quick reviewing of what I have but in reality, beyond looking on JPGs I never worked with them. I am interested the most into the B&W film-like modes but it seems to me that I am getting better results when I just process the Fuji RAF image as usual and convert that into B&W during the postprocess ... here is the example (see please an attached files).

So my questions are:

1) do you ever edit the SOOC JPGs with Fuji's film simulation modes, they tend to be usually flatter that their potential is but after editing, it's different image, isn't it ? and isn't it silly to edit JPGs like that ?
2) if so, what kind of edits are acceptable to preserve the simulation which is not just the matter of few sliders
3) also perhaps it's the issue with my software, but I find a FUJI's RAWs with shifted colours a lot of time, especially blue-ish or purple-ish,
Raw files have no set white balance or colour shift. The raw processing software typically attempts to determine what settings were applied in the camera to create the SOOC JPEG and apply a close facsimile in generating the default open appearance of the image. For example the WB is typically presented "As shot" and that's the raw processing software's attempt to use a value that was used by the camera. In addition to the WB value all raw processing software applies an input profile for the default open image again most commonly to match the camera settings used to create the JPEG.
I don't have any special setting in the camera, all zeros (saturation, sharpening, whatever else), perhaps it's related to that I always shoot with some film-like mode enabled (in reality switching mostly 95% of time between ACROS-R and Classic Chrome), not sure how exactly it works, but the RAF previews appear to adopt the style, so for example in my operating system I just have a B&W preview for RAFs if ACROS-R was used,
Raw files are saved with a copy of the camera JPEG embedded in the raw file. This is for preview purposes and the embedded JPEG is used by the camera as well as a computer's OS to provide an image preview. In that case the raw preview should look exactly like the camera SOOC JPEG.
but once I click on them and open them for processing (I use RawTherapee mostly, Darktable doesn't work a good for them at all and I have same "issue" in LR as well and I simply prefer RT over the LR anyway), they open in colour and the initial curves are deducted I believe from bundled JPEG profile so initial look in RAW editor is often fancy (or just horrible / bad).
Once you open a raw file in raw processing software what you'll first see comes from the raw processor reading values stored in the raw file's metadata as well as canned profile adjustments applied by the software. The values used by the camera to create the JPEG are typically recorded in the raw file's metadata and may or may not be read and applied by the raw processing software. A good example with your Fuji camera is the DR settings. Most raw processing software reads the DR100/200/400 tag in the metadata and makes an adjustment for that value but some raw processing software ignores that value.

Two concerns: 1. How quickly if at all do you want the raw processing software to generate a result similar to the camera JPEG, and 2. If the camera is applying any adjustment can you change it or is it outside your control.
So my last question is, do I have to use a standard profile with FUJI camera when I intend to work with RAWs ?
No. When you process a raw file you'll end up using the profile applied by the software (In RT look under Color Management and Film Simulation).
thanks and regards, ~dan
 

jcdeboever

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Ysarex is a genius, I am pretty dumb on most things. However, here is what I know...

1. You can edit the SOOC jpegs but it is better to get it really nice in camera first. The raw has a considerable increase in information that can be edited if your a carefree type shooter . The jpeg is a really nice file and if your careful, no issue. To get the genuine Fuji sims, you need to develop the in-camera raw using the camera itself. Then the output JPG will have the proper Fuji film simulation. Capture One is probably the closest to reading the RAW simulated file but it screws up Acros simulation something bad.

2. You can convert the raws in camera to any or multiple simulations if you desire. I am a very methodical shooter and convert most (99%) of my raws in camera and do little to no editing. Fuji's supplied software (Silky Pix) doesn't get it right either, Capture 1 is better but not my cup of tea. In my opinion, this is a Fuji advantage (converting in camera).

I only shoot raw these days but I do not chimp. I am a very careful "in camera shooter", and convert in camera. I shoot everything in monochrome because I shoot mainly manual focus with high red peaking highlights and covert to color simulation if needed. I rarely even use my custom simulations anymore. It's probably not the best way but it's my way, I hate editing as much as I hate scanning, maybe more. Ysarex probably wants to slap me now...LOL

3. The raw file itself will have film simulation EXIF value ("FilmMode" tag). Some software handles Fuji raw files better than others. Raw Therapy is pretty good and it's a starting point, Capture One is slightly better I suppose. The JPEG embedded inside RAW will contain the film simulation you used to shoot with and different software produces different results. Nothing is as good as the in camera raw conversion or that has been my experience, especially with Acros simulation. Velvia is pretty much the same way as Acros. All you need to do to understand completely is to produce an intentional raw simulated image (use velvia because it is the worst one in my opinion) and covert it in camera as shot, you will then have the simulated raw plus the jpeg. Then load that simulated in software and compare, it will surprise you. Do it with Acros as well and you will totally get it.

The Fuji in camera conversion rocks but many people don't work that way so they shoot primarily jpegs or post process.
 
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thank you very much for the input ...

I would like to spare myself from buying another editors and rather work with what I have and what I like. I do 95% of stuff in RawTherapee and 5% in LR. If you look on above pictures (you can deduct from filenames which is JPG and which is exported from RAW) it drives me to say, that I am almost always able to do a better image from raw (correct if I am wrong) .. Perhaps there's more prominent a Classic Chrome which really has sometimes an uniq look but all B&W profiles seem finally better to do in postprocessing from RAW.
 

Ysarex

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Ysarex is a genius, I am pretty dumb on most things. However, here is what I know...

1. You can edit the SOOC jpegs but it is better to get it really nice in camera first. The raw has a considerable increase in information that can be edited if your a carefree type shooter . The jpeg is a really nice file and if your careful, no issue. To get the genuine Fuji sims, you need to develop the in-camera raw using the camera itself. Then the output JPG will have the proper Fuji film simulation. Capture One is probably the closest to reading the RAW simulated file but it screws up Acros simulation something bad.

2. You can convert the raws in camera to any or multiple simulations if you desire. I am a very methodical shooter and convert most (99%) of my raws in camera and do little to no editing. Fuji's supplied software (Silky Pix) doesn't get it right either, Capture 1 is better but not my cup of tea. In my opinion, this is a Fuji advantage (converting in camera).

I only shoot raw these days but I do not chimp. I am a very careful "in camera shooter", and convert in camera. I shoot everything in monochrome because I shoot mainly manual focus with high red peaking highlights and covert to color simulation if needed. I rarely even use my custom simulations anymore. It's probably not the best way but it's my way, I hate editing as much as I hate scanning, maybe more. Ysarex probably wants to slap me now...LOL

3. The raw file itself will have film simulation EXIF value ("FilmMode" tag). Some software handles Fuji raw files better than others. Raw Therapy is pretty good and it's a starting point, Capture One is slightly better I suppose. The JPEG embedded inside RAW will contain the film simulation you used to shoot with and different software produces different results. Nothing is as good as the in camera raw conversion or that has been my experience, especially with Acros simulation. Velvia is pretty much the same way as Acros. All you need to do to understand completely is to produce an intentional raw simulated image (use velvia because it is the worst one in my opinion) and covert it in camera as shot, you will then have the simulated raw plus the jpeg. Then load that simulated in software and compare, it will surprise you. Do it with Acros as well and you will totally get it.

The Fuji in camera conversion rocks but many people don't work that way so they shoot primarily jpegs or post process.
If you like the in-camera conversion that Fuji renders you can do that after the fact with a nice big computer display by downloading Fuji's X-Raw Studio. Just cable up the camera and you're good to go. You can generate any new camera JPEG from a raw file with any of the camera parameters as shot or altered.
 

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If you like the in-camera conversion that Fuji renders you can do that after the fact with a nice big computer display by downloading Fuji's X-Raw Studio. Just cable up the camera and you're good to go. You can generate any new camera JPEG from a raw file with any of the camera parameters as shot or altered.
Cool, learn something new everyday.
 

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If you like the in-camera conversion that Fuji renders you can do that after the fact with a nice big computer display by downloading Fuji's X-Raw Studio. Just cable up the camera and you're good to go. You can generate any new camera JPEG from a raw file with any of the camera parameters as shot or altered.
Does Sony do that for their cameras?
 

Ysarex

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Does Sony do that for their cameras?
Sony provides a free download for their cameras called Imaging Edge which will allow you to convert the camera raw files to JPEGs at least very similar to the camera output.

It's common for a camera manufacturer to provide a raw conversion app along with the camera that will create JPEGs using the same parameters and values that are available in the camera. Canon supplies DPP and Nikon supplies NX Studio. All three, Imaging Edge, DPP, and NX Studio leverage the muscle in the computer to do the job. Fuji is unique in that X-Raw studio actually uses the camera to do the processing via a USB cable connection. I think it may be Fuji paranoia actually as they want to keep their proprietary processing away from prying eyes. Normally the extra processing power of a computer is a plus. In DPP for example Canon adds the DLO function that's too processing intensive to put in the camera.

Most folks pass over these manufacturer supplied apps for the extra features available from a commercial raw processor. The manufacturer supplied apps are historically about as limited as the camera software, i.e. no additional features like locally applied adjustments. Nikon's new NX Studio is a departure offering a more robust processing toolset than their previous Capture NX or available in the camera.
 

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Sony provides a free download for their cameras called Imaging Edge which will allow you to convert the camera raw files to JPEGs at least very similar to the camera output.

It's common for a camera manufacturer to provide a raw conversion app along with the camera that will create JPEGs using the same parameters and values that are available in the camera. Canon supplies DPP and Nikon supplies NX Studio. All three, Imaging Edge, DPP, and NX Studio leverage the muscle in the computer to do the job. Fuji is unique in that X-Raw studio actually uses the camera to do the processing via a USB cable connection. I think it may be Fuji paranoia actually as they want to keep their proprietary processing away from prying eyes. Normally the extra processing power of a computer is a plus. In DPP for example Canon adds the DLO function that's too processing intensive to put in the camera.

Most folks pass over these manufacturer supplied apps for the extra features available from a commercial raw processor. The manufacturer supplied apps are historically about as limited as the camera software, i.e. no additional features like locally applied adjustments. Nikon's new NX Studio is a departure offering a more robust processing toolset than their previous Capture NX or available in the camera.
WIll the Sony program allow you to select the type of jpeg you want? Such as BW, color, etc?
 

Ysarex

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WIll the Sony program allow you to select the type of jpeg you want? Such as BW, color, etc?
I believe so, but that's the one I'm only familiar with by reputation -- no hands on I'm afraid. It's free for Sony users -- try it.
 
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ntz

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I believe so, but that's the one I'm only familiar with by reputation -- no hands on I'm afraid. It's free for Sony users -- try it.

Btw, I have this thread

aka this
 

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I never used the jpegs when I was a Nikon shooter. I think the Fuji jpegs are very usable and sometimes result in a better photo than I can coax out of the raw file on my own (assuming that the exposure is correct to start with).

I don't use the film simulations much when shooting but they are in the LR menu of presets so you can easily use them in post to see if you prefer the look.
 

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