Indoor sport - new lens or body

Flandrach · Apr 22, 2016

Hi!

I own a Canon 550D camera, the kit lens EF-S 18-55mm and the Canon EF28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM.

My daughter is member of a dance school and they take part in dance competitions. Everyone in the dance school knows i am an amateur photographer and they count on me to take photos during the contests. What they don’t know is that it is very hard to take good pictures at the venues where these contests are held: indoor sport halls, community halls etc. mostly with those ugly yellow lightbulbs… So light is very very poor, and the dancers are moving very fast so i need fast shutter speed.

Anyway, I really need a good new lens, as for the moment my equipment is ‘poor’ (for indoor). This weekend i used my cousins 'Nifty Fifty' (50mm f/1.8) getting me far better results than my own two lenses. But here is my question, and it might sound stupid: how big a difference would it be if i take these indoor photos with a Canon 70-200 f2.8, or the 24-70 2.8 on my 550D body? Way better than the nifty?

Here a few of my pics: www.flickr.com/photos/flandrach/albums/72157667294361541

At these contests there is a photographer shooting with a Nikon D810 (but don’t know what lenses) and with his €2.500 body his photos are amazing (see www.jmphotography.be) compared to my €500 body. So i am really wondering if i have to consider to buy a new body + lens (my wife will kill me) or will my photos get a serious boost if i buy an expensive lens?

If it would make a big difference, than there is another big question but that one i will have to figure out on my own i suppose: range. I really would like to spend my money on a 70-200 but after shooting at many venues and shooting +5000 pics, i noticed that with the 50 mm i was often too close to the dancers. Winning the lotery and buy 2 lenses would be the best solution, but that’s not goiing to happen.

Thank for listening, and please share your thoughts!

table1349 · Apr 22, 2016

It comes down to what do you need the most a new cart or new horse to pull it. Action photography it taxing on the photographer and the gear. Indoor even more so. Fast glass is important to give you the shutter speed you need to capture action and stay in a decent ISO range. Personally I would choose glass first.

You say you were too close to the dancers. Why. Were you getting too close or was the area you could use was just to close? Generally when shooting indoor sports, mostly basketball, volleyball I will have a prime, generally my 35mm f1.4 one body and a 70-200 f2.8 on the other. I will usually have stuck in a pocket the 24-70 in case I need it.

Fast glass allows you to reach the shutter speeds to freeze motion even if you have to push the ISO up some. Slower glass definitely means you will have to push the ISO even higher. I would rather have a sharp photo with some noise than blurry motion. You can clean noise, you can't fix motion blur.

Derrel · Apr 22, 2016

You're running into the issue of what APS-C size sensor does to older focal lengths like the 50mm: the narrower angle of view on APS-C is doing two things: first, it is making the 50mm lens very narrow in view, and second, even at f/1.8, you can see that the spectators behind the girls are in quite recognizable focus: this is the main issue of the APS-C format camera in portraiture, and in sports where one might (emphasis on might) want to have a large degree of subject/background isolation.

Your timing appears pretty good! This shot was made at f/1.8 at ISO 800, at a fast speed of 1/1000 second:Amber solo disco dance

Amber solo disco dance
When I look at this shot full-sized, I can see noise and a lack of detail in the darker parts of the shot

The EOS 550D (aka Rebel T2i) has a poor sensor in it. I looked at DxO Mark's comparison, and even the old,outdated, $279 Nikon D3300 has substantially better image-making capabilities.Compare the Canon EOS 550D vs the Nikon D3300

The camera body is very basic; it's just NOT that good at higher ISO values, and I can see that the color gets rather weak, and the noise is high, and my gut tells me you under-exposed these somewhat at ISO 800 and at 1/1000 second; on a Canon APS-C sensor, that kind of under-expopsure leaves you with detail-less eye sockets, noise, and weak color.

The Nikon D3300 is available for $274 in the USA, gray market, from Tri-State Camera, our country's largest gray market camera and lens dealer. In Belgium, I am not sure what the cost would be.

The EF-S lenses are of no use on any of the Canon FF bodies....the 28-135 is an old, low-cost, film lens. I don't see much value in any Canon APS-C bvody except the 7D (marginal) or the 7D-Mark II...all the others APS-C Canons have sensors that are just not that good.

My suggestion: new body, one by Nikon. Or, a used Canon 5D classic: it is really still pretty decent at ISO 1600 or 2,400 or even ISO 3,200, and it makes a 50mm lens very useful, and it makes a 70-200mm useful indoors.

You are in a tough spot...if a 50mm is THAT "tight", then an FF body would make a 50mm very useful for pairs, or small teams of 3 to 6 dancers. I would not consider a 550D + 18-55 + 28-135 zoom as being much to keep you "married to Canon APS-C", unless you move to a Canon 7D or 7D-II for better ISO and lower noise and a better AF system than the 550D has.

There ARE times when a new body can make a HUGE improvement in one's low-light and high-ISO shooting; the 550D is using a very poor sensor, compared against Nikon's $275 D3300 beginner-level d-slr...it's basically the same under-performing 18-MP sensor Canon used in six cameras beginning in 2009. You really have a camera body that has very weak Higher-ISO performance, with an entry-level focusing system. I would personally rather have my current, outdated 5D Classic, and a Canon 50/1.4 for this kind of indoor sport, along with the Canon 85/1.8.

You're in a position where the CHEAPEST solution would be to buy the used Canon 50/1.4 lens, or maybe the new 50/1.8 STM Canon lens: I had the 1.8 EF-II, and its focusing was slower/less-dependable than my Canon 50/1.4 was. If money is tight, I would go for the 50/1.4 lens or the 50/1.8 STM model, and see where that puts you. A fast 50mm lens is a VERY good tool to have, either on APS-C or FF camera body.

It's difficult, basing this off of SIX, individual photos, made at one, single indoor venue. The thing is this: if you bought a discontinued, undesirable Nikon like a D600 full-frame, and slapped on a used $99, 50/1.8 AF-D Nikkor lens, you'd have a camera with ISO 12,800 image quality that's as good as your Rebel's image quality is at ISO 800...you are working way below the state of modern sensor tech with the 550D...I just do not see it as a platform worth staying with. you would also move from a 9-point AF system to a 39-point AF system.

Flandrach · Apr 27, 2016

Just got back from a congress abroad, sorry for my late reply...
Will give my thoughts asap, but i would like to thank you Derrel for your feedback, it must be 16 years since i’ve found my way to internet, and never had such a reply on my posts like you did, my hat off to you sir, respect for the time you took to give a long, clear answer to my questions!

Anyway, enough of my emo time, will start unpacking and will write my thoughts later on.

Best regards,
Mike

vintagesnaps · Apr 27, 2016

I've done sports, mostly ice hockey where at least you have the ice reflecting some light - indoor school gyms are the worst! So I'd suggest a sharper, better lens. You could try buying used - as long as they don't have fungus or are a scratched up mess. If you consider used I'd suggest buying from reputable sellers so you can trust the descriptions of the condition and get fair pricing.

Your photos actually look pretty decent as far as quality. And that pro seems to be doing posed shots which is quite different from capturing action. You seem to be using a fast enough shutter speed to not get blur, and seem to be seeing some good moments to capture - you got some great facial expressions.

I'd suggest that you practice your framing. Make sure the camera is straight. Go early and figure out where would be a good vantage point. Think about how the background will look from where you plan to sit/stand, walk around and see if there's somewhere you can be that gives you a better background. Some of your photos where the legs are extended might have been better if you'd flipped the camera to a horizontal position. Notice what/who's next to the athlete and try to keep them out of the frame unless you want them in the shot too (try not to have parts of cropped off people in the frame or another athlete directly behind your daughter). I've sometimes had to go up a row in the bleachers, or move a step or a few steps to get what I want in the picture. I've sometimes either scrunched down in a seat, or leaned over, adjusted my perspective to put people where I want them in the picture (if that makes sense).

I took a sports photography workshop some years ago with a photographer who's done the Olympics. He would go early or to a practice to just watch so then he'd know when there would be particular parts of the routine where he could get a good picture. If this is your daughter you probably know the routine so that should help.

Some of shooting sports is the timing. I don't usually 'chase' the action, I get set and let it come to me (into my viewfinder). Figure out where the athlete is going next so you're ready. Think about when she'll be at a certain point in her routine that she's ready to go into a leap or an interesting position, etc.

Get a decent lens and keep practicing and you'll probably start seeing the results you'd like.

Didereaux · Apr 27, 2016

vintagesnaps said:
I've done sports, mostly ice hockey where at least you have the ice reflecting some light - indoor school gyms are the worst! So I'd suggest a sharper, better lens. You could try buying used - as long as they don't have fungus or are a scratched up mess. If you consider used I'd suggest buying from reputable sellers so you can trust the descriptions of the condition and get fair pricing.

Your photos actually look pretty decent as far as quality. And that pro seems to be doing posed shots which is quite different from capturing action. You seem to be using a fast enough shutter speed to not get blur, and seem to be seeing some good moments to capture - you got some great facial expressions.

I'd suggest that you practice your framing. Make sure the camera is straight. Go early and figure out where would be a good vantage point. Think about how the background will look from where you plan to sit/stand, walk around and see if there's somewhere you can be that gives you a better background. Some of your photos where the legs are extended might have been better if you'd flipped the camera to a horizontal position. Notice what/who's next to the athlete and try to keep them out of the frame unless you want them in the shot too (try not to have parts of cropped off people in the frame or another athlete directly behind your daughter). I've sometimes had to go up a row in the bleachers, or move a step or a few steps to get what I want in the picture. I've sometimes either scrunched down in a seat, or leaned over, adjusted my perspective to put people where I want them in the picture (if that makes sense).

I took a sports photography workshop some years ago with a photographer who's done the Olympics. He would go early or to a practice to just watch so then he'd know when there would be particular parts of the routine where he could get a good picture. If this is your daughter you probably know the routine so that should help.

Some of shooting sports is the timing. I don't usually 'chase' the action, I get set and let it come to me (into my viewfinder). Figure out where the athlete is going next so you're ready. Think about when she'll be at a certain point in her routine that she's ready to go into a leap or an interesting position, etc.

Get a decent lens and keep practicing and you'll probably start seeing the results you'd like.

I agree with the above. From your pics I can see that your technique and camera are pretty good...it is in post processing that you could improve your photos. Not a lot needed, but some exposure, sharpening tweaks. All told a lot better than the average Soccer Mom/Dad shot!

astroNikon · Apr 27, 2016

I've done a lot of indoor and outdoor sports / activities (for a non-pro).
The low/variable light will drive you crazy.

In addition to all of the above
I'd recommend buying a used FullFrame camera and used lenses. This will save you some money getting into the level of equipment that is better suited for indoor use without using flash.

I've been using a nikon d600 with a Nikon 24-85/2.8-4.0 and 80-200/2.8 lens with good success both indoor and out. A nice Full Frame sensor and fast/large aperture lenses that doesn't break the bank. There's also Tamron lenses, Sigma, etc. as other options.

I'm sure a nice Canon would be the 5dm2 and appropriate lenses.

Also, learning how to Post Process your images will greatly help them. Shooting in RAW you have a lot of options but many here use Adobe Lightroom to process the best from their images.

This past indoor soccer season I was the only person there taking photos. All the other soccer moms/dads gave up with their smaller cameras. One even had the latest APS-C mirrorless Sony camera for one maybe two games. Then just came without it afterwards.

Flandrach · Apr 27, 2016

Again, thank you for the many replies and power tips

Vintagesnaps, it's funny you mention that i have to work on my framing skills... good point, i noticed myself that in comparison with many 'semi-pro's' (and pro's), that i haven't always the best composition, although i have it in my head

As a profession i work as a desktop publisher since 2001... so i am supposed to 'see it'. But once i am at a dance contest, i have to deal with many issues: very crowded near the dancefloor; super fast dancing moves; position switches; moms and dads pushing their way to see a glimp of the spectacle; and so on... Other dancers appearing in in a photo (like an arm or another body part) is hard to avoid, they all dance so fast and close to each other... plus the fact that i used a prime lens the last two contests. During a dance it is nearly impossible for me to move around, so before it begins i try to find the best spot where the distance is good to shoot my pics. Often i have to crawl, or move around on my knees, lay down... maybe you all had the same experience when the day after a shoot, your body feels like you did a fitness workout

To give you an idea of the venues, you can have a look on the video’s i made (yes, another hobby that i love doing haha):

Anyway... It is not only my daughter i shoot, but i take pics of ALL the dancers of our dance school that take part in the contests. Most of the times i have between 500 and 1300 shots, so that is a very good learning school for me. Also, i get to know most of the dances and moves, so i quickly learned when to press the shutter at the right time! (thx for the compliments)

So next to learn how to frame better, i think i am ready to take the next step and invest my money in a new body, a new lens, or both. First of all, i have to wait a few months so i have a good budget. But then i will have to decide what to buy. If possible i really would like to buy both (duh, obvious, who wouldn't). In Belgium we have a similar forum, and there is a good topic where you can sell or buy camera equipment. There is one post that took my attention: a Nikon D7100 + AF Nikkor 85mm 1.8 for €600. Question is, will it be a big step forward from my Canon 550D… Snapsort tells me yes, but i am still in doubt, maybe because of the ‘low’ price? Maybe i have too much in mind that i have to buy a more expensive camera? Or i have too much in mind that i better buy a full frame? But now i have to be honest… I can’t even say way i would need a full frame :-S What i do know is that i need a camera that has MUCH better ISO performance. Getting better shutter speeds in darker environments. Nikon or Canon, i must say that i don’t care… not a fanboy of Nikon, or Canon. I am sure they all have their pros and cons. But there are so many models to choose from, in all price categories.

Darrel, I only showed 6 pics, but they represent exactly most of my other thousands of shots. Some equal, but many worse, none better (except the ones where the dancers stand still in beginning position or at the end of a dance). Also, the pics that i showed were taken with the 50mm f/1.8.

I quickly selected a few pics that were taken with a EF28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS: IMG_0076.jpg and 19 more files
If we are all honest I think we can say that these aren't good pictures...

If possible, can some of you show me some good indoor shots, so i can compare and see with camera and lens was used? Just to give me an idea.

Again, i really thank you all for your time!

astroNikon · Apr 27, 2016

here's a few photos - indoor soccer. was very dim. The images are brighter than what was visually by a lot.
==> Turkey Shootout Nov 27 2015

My old Nikon d7000 crop camera would have major issues either to slow shutter or too dim. I used the same lenses with that camera as I do now.
and as mentioned, the other moms/dads gave up with their cameras.

If you take that photosonphotos.net chart and add a full frame camera like the D600 or D750 you'll see the immediate gap Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting

Flandrach · May 19, 2016

Choices… so many choices! Still have a few months to decide, so I had a look and found these interesting cameras that probably will fit in my budget:

Canon 7D mark II (€1369)
Canon 6D (€1435)
Nikon D750 (€1939)
Nikon D610 (€1399) (these prices are from a quality shop in Belgium, so maybe not the sharpest prices, and sorry about the euros...)

So 1 crop en 3 full frame cameras. How on earth do I have to choose one of them… Have read many many reviews etc but it is so hard to know what to do best. I can say that i am a very all-round photographer: portraits, architecture, landscapes, weddings and festivities, … you name it and i shoot it. But maybe the most important thing where my new camera has to perform very well is the indoor dance contests, so high ISO/low noise is recommended.

So this is the first step i want to take, together with you all. Can you guide me in the right direction please? Your thoughts about the 4 cameras above, or do you recommend another one in the same price class, keeping in mind that i own a 550D at this moment. A new lens (or lenses) will be another step, but first things first.

Thanks all!

KC1 · May 19, 2016

Go to their AV dept. and grab some lights and get the lighting right, then see what else you need if anything to get the shots.
But the first thing is to get the lighting right.

table1349 · May 19, 2016

KC1 said:
Go to their AV dept. and grab some lights and get the lighting right, then see what else you need if anything to get the shots.
But the first thing is to get the lighting right.

Lighting at events like this is usually like lighting at sport events. You get what they got.

Didereaux · May 19, 2016

For the kind of shooting you do I would recommend the Canon 7Dmkii because of ISO sensitivity, 10FPS rate, and excellent AF. This camera is producing some outstanding wildlife and sports shots in tough conditions. Search around here in this forum. One bird shooter who produces some fantastic photos is CoastalConn. I have both it and a 6D. I upgraded a while back from the 7D to the mkii...it was worth every penny.

beagle100 · May 19, 2016

you can spend $$ on a full frame model like the 6D but the cheap $50 works pretty good, even on an old Canon cameras !

six year old Canon DSLR model
50mm 1.8
ISO 1600
f3.5
1/1000

Flandrach · May 26, 2016

Found an nice combo (I suppose): Nikon D750 + Tamron 24-70mm F/2.8 SP Di VC USD for € 2749 ($3075,1).
Am I correct that the Tamron 24-70 is a very good rival of the Nikkor 24-70 version?

Only issue is that I often will need a bigger range, but hey, i have to start somewhere!