Justifiable refund?

[KaughtPhotography]

Hi,

I haven't made many posts here, but I am in quite a predicament. Anyone with experience in this type of situation is welcome to help a girl out!

I am a fairly new photographer. I've been at this for about 4 years and semi-professional for about 2. I've recently gained lots of traction in the wedding area of my business. I did a wedding in May. The groom was the older brother of a longtime friend. The bride, I had heard from the family was a little "rough around the edges" and quick to temper. I ignored all warnings and went ahead with it, giving them ridiculous deals on price because I am close with the groom's family. They paid me $2300 for my services which included the following (My retail values listed beside them) -

2 Hour Engagement Session ($200 value)
Custom 20 page Guestbook ($200 value)
200 5x5 Save the Date Cards ($400 value)
1 hour bridal session ($100 Value)
16x20 Mount Print ($85 Value)
Rehearsal Dinner Coverage (3 Hours) ($300 value)
Full wedding day coverage.
3x5 proofs of all Wedding Day images (500+ fully edited images) ($400~ value)
Online galleries for all sessions
50 page wedding Album ($500 value)

I paid a second shooter ($150) out of my own pocket when she refused my advice to add it to her package.

I am currently enrolled in college classes, and if any of you have ever taken summer courses, then you know they can be super demanding. I told her beforehand that the wedding gallery would take some time to be up, maybe a month, and that the Album would take a few months because I was in class and also because after my first month of class, I was moving 120 miles away and also starting a job in an unrelated field. She said she understood. As of August, she has all products aside from the album which I have ordered from Miller's and should be in within the next 3 or 4 days. She angrily contacted me about 2 weeks ago stating that she was very unhappy with the time frame. I told her I understood fully that she was frustrated and that for her patience, I would give her a USB drive of both the rehearsal and wedding day proofs. I told her I would be coming to town on Monday to deliver her drive. Because of work conflicts, I was unable to deliver until late this afternoon. She was very volatile during delivery and demanded a refund. I am fully aware that the length of time she has waited is a tad ridiculous. I take full responsibility and tried to patch things with the USB. Does she have grounds to sue for a refund? We did not sign a contract (I know, I know). The way I see it, I have done all I can do to make things better, if not for customer service than to protect my relationship with her Husband's family. If she receives all products paid for and there was no contract to set date of delivery, can she realistically get any money back? Because I gave them so much product, I didn't profit very much. I understood that from the beginning because they were friends, I didn't mind. Also, I need to mention they were VERY happy with the images. Any advice you can give me about this type of situation is greatly appreciated!

Thanks so much,

Krista

 

[pixmedic]

it sounds like you took a job when you knew there would be problems fulfilling your commitment to them in a timely manner. problem #1.
problem #2 was not having a legal contract in place.
without a contract in place laying out the time frame you DID tell them, it is impossible to prove, and all that is left is whether or not a judge believes that an unreasonable amount of time has passed before you delivered their pictures. Does she have grounds to sue? that's a question better put to a lawyer. honestly though, it isn't difficult to get a lawyer to present pretty much anything to a judge. I would imagine that the first thing the lawyer and judge will want to see is your contract, and your business license and/or Tax ID. If you are not a properly licensed business as required by your state, having to refund your clients may be the least of your concerns.
in all reality, a judge is not likely to consider your college courses as a justifiable reason for not getting the job done in a timely manner.
if you take a job, it should be done on time.

 

[manicmike]

it sounds like you took a job when you knew there would be problems fulfilling your commitment to them in a timely manner. problem #1.
problem #2 was not having a legal contract in place.
without a contract in place laying out the time frame you DID tell them, it is impossible to prove, and all that is left is whether or not a judge believes that an unreasonable amount of time has passed before you delivered their pictures. Does she have grounds to sue? that's a question better put to a lawyer. honestly though, it isn't difficult to get a lawyer to present pretty much anything to a judge. I would imagine that the first thing the lawyer and judge will want to see is your contract, and your business license and/or Tax ID. If you are not a properly licensed business as required by your state, having to refund your clients may be the least of your concerns.
in all reality, a judge is not likely to consider your college courses as a justifiable reason for not getting the job done in a timely manner.
if you take a job, it should be done on time.

Agree with everything Pix said.

 

[Juga]

From a quick Google search it doesn't look like Mississippi requires a business license for photography but as Pix has said a contract should ALWAYS be signed by both parties that is full in detail explaining timelines, services rendered, etc.

 

[imagemaker46]

If you are going to be taking jobs make sure that you have the ability to do so in a professional or in your case, a semi-professional manner.

Bottom line comes down to one thing, be a photographer or be something else.

 

[pixmedic]

From a quick Google search it doesn't look like Mississippi requires a business license for photography but as Pix has said a contract should ALWAYS be signed by both parties that is full in detail explaining timelines, services rendered, etc.

in a lot of states, its actually more of a county thing.
either way, a tax ID (or social security number) is required in order to pay your sales tax to the state, and your income tax at the end of the year. this is assuming of course, that you are paying your sales and income tax.

 

[robbins.photo]

Hi,

I haven't made many posts here, but I am in quite a predicament. Anyone with experience in this type of situation is welcome to help a girl out!

I am a fairly new photographer. I've been at this for about 4 years and semi-professional for about 2. I've recently gained lots of traction in the wedding area of my business. I did a wedding in May. The groom was the older brother of a longtime friend. The bride, I had heard from the family was a little "rough around the edges" and quick to temper. I ignored all warnings and went ahead with it, giving them ridiculous deals on price because I am close with the groom's family. They paid me $2300 for my services which included the following (My retail values listed beside them) -

2 Hour Engagement Session ($200 value)
Custom 20 page Guestbook ($200 value)
200 5x5 Save the Date Cards ($400 value)
1 hour bridal session ($100 Value)
16x20 Mount Print ($85 Value)
Rehearsal Dinner Coverage (3 Hours) ($300 value)
Full wedding day coverage.
3x5 proofs of all Wedding Day images (500+ fully edited images) ($400~ value)
Online galleries for all sessions
50 page wedding Album ($500 value)

I paid a second shooter ($150) out of my own pocket when she refused my advice to add it to her package.

I am currently enrolled in college classes, and if any of you have ever taken summer courses, then you know they can be super demanding. I told her beforehand that the wedding gallery would take some time to be up, maybe a month, and that the Album would take a few months because I was in class and also because after my first month of class, I was moving 120 miles away and also starting a job in an unrelated field. She said she understood. As of August, she has all products aside from the album which I have ordered from Miller's and should be in within the next 3 or 4 days. She angrily contacted me about 2 weeks ago stating that she was very unhappy with the time frame. I told her I understood fully that she was frustrated and that for her patience, I would give her a USB drive of both the rehearsal and wedding day proofs. I told her I would be coming to town on Monday to deliver her drive. Because of work conflicts, I was unable to deliver until late this afternoon. She was very volatile during delivery and demanded a refund. I am fully aware that the length of time she has waited is a tad ridiculous. I take full responsibility and tried to patch things with the USB. Does she have grounds to sue for a refund? We did not sign a contract (I know, I know). The way I see it, I have done all I can do to make things better, if not for customer service than to protect my relationship with her Husband's family. If she receives all products paid for and there was no contract to set date of delivery, can she realistically get any money back? Because I gave them so much product, I didn't profit very much. I understood that from the beginning because they were friends, I didn't mind. Also, I need to mention they were VERY happy with the images. Any advice you can give me about this type of situation is greatly appreciated!

Thanks so much,

Krista

Ok, have to agree with Pix on this one, what you have is considered an oral contract and while it is more difficult to prove in court the details of an oral contract I think the judge will most likely be fairly easily convinced that you did not tell the client that the pictures would be delayed to this extent and most likely find you in breach of contract as a result. So yes, it is feasible she could sue you and win. As to whether or not she will of course that is an entirely seperate issue, a lot of people threaten to sue but few actually go through with it.

My recommendation would be to contact her, explain to her that there were considerable expenses involved on your end as well and as such a full refund really isn't fair since she did actually recieve what she had ordered, however you understand that she was inconvienced by the delay and you'd like to work something out with her so that she'll be happy. From there you have a lot of options, you could perhaps offer to order a very large print or two (something in the $150 to $200 range) and include it for free, you could offer a partial refund, or you could offer additional photographic services, perhaps an extra session with some additional portraits.

Regardless of how this turns out you really need to get a standardized contract and given your situation and time constraints you might really want something in writing where the client agrees to perhaps a pro-rated refund (partial refund) for any delay in recieving there results. It should be something that you make clear to the client up front if you think this might happen again, so that they know what they are getting into and that there is a possiblity that there might very well be such a delay.

This may sound a little harsh, but don't ever take money from a client again unless you have a signed agreement first - and I don't care if that client is your own mom. If money is going to be changing hands then everything needs to be on paper, for your protection and theirs. If you want to donate your time and efforts for family, etc - then make it just that, a donation. If they plan to pay you at all, even as much as a dollar, you get everything signed and in writing, no exceptions.

 

[Juga]

From a quick Google search it doesn't look like Mississippi requires a business license for photography but as Pix has said a contract should ALWAYS be signed by both parties that is full in detail explaining timelines, services rendered, etc.

in a lot of states, its actually more of a county thing.
either way, a tax ID (or social security number) is required in order to pay your sales tax to the state, and your income tax at the end of the year. this is assuming of course, that you are paying your sales and income tax.

Of course...which is why I said with a quick search. I am only speaking from experience, of course, with the 'COMMONWEALTH' of VA.

OP...what's done is done. Do thorough research and make sure you cross your T's and dot your I's in the future. Pix is completely right by saying your bigger issue might be licensing and tax ID. I am moving to Mississippi soon so you are more than welcome to PM me and we can tag team this thing.

 

[Overread]

A few other points to consider in addition to those raised;

1) Contracts means lawyers - ideally you want a lawyer or firm you can turn to when you need professional legal advice. This can be anything from checking that your contracts are legal and sensible and not leaving you open to attack; through to advice in situations such as this where you need proper legal advice.
It's also helpful if you get a client who doesn't pay or who raises a fuss - quite a few people will be sluggish with payments or will try raising a fuss (normally for a discount) and a quick lawyer letter can often get them to pay up or silence their hostile attitude.

2) Contracts - its been mentioned but remember a contract is there to protect both parties and to also ensure that all details are clearly defined including the time line, the estimated delivery dates; what is to be delivered as well as things like the copyright and printing rights of your photos.
Whilst verbal contracts are binding they are basically a case "He/she said" in court and give you and your client no protection. A clear written contract solves a lot of problems and makes the whole process a lot easier if something goes wrong. It's also a good reference point to ensure that a client isn't adding lots of "extra little things" or changing the nature of the work to the point where you're performing a service that wasn't originally on the cards.



In the end anyone can threaten to sue you for anything and some feel that its a good idea to do that just to scare people into giving discounts that they otherwise wouldn't. People also mouth off and "I'll sue you" is a common battle cry. It's a little late in this case to draw up a contract; but take it as an important lesson and get contracts drawn up and used for future clients.

 

[Derrel]

You said you told her "beforehand" that delivery would be slow. You said you were close with the groom's family...well, maybe it's time to short circuit this bridezilla and deal with her husband, and tell him to get his wife to stop harassing you and trying to rip you off. You heard beforehand that she was "rough around the edges", and so you will probably need to take matters into your own hands, and stop letting some woman push you around and try to clip you out of thousands of dollars because her panties are bunched up. If indeed you established that the completion of the job would take "months", then there's no justification for a refund.

Look..you cut prices as a "favor", and now you're letting her bust your balls,and letting her threaten you?

Next time...put it in writing. Protect yourself.

 

[KmH]

Mississippi Small Claims Court: An Overview | Nolo.com

What's the dollar limit for small claims court cases in Mississippi?
The most you can ask for in a small claims case is $3,500.

They don't need to hire an attorney, because they can file a lawsuit in Mississippi small claims court, but in Mississippi they can hire an attorney to help them in small claims court if they choose to.
An attorney will likely cost them more than the $2300 you charged.

At a month to post the gallery, and a few months to produce the Album, I have serious doubts a judge will be sympathetic to your side in small claims court.

 

[robbins.photo]

Mississippi Small Claims Court: An Overview | Nolo.com

What's the dollar limit for small claims court cases in Mississippi?
The most you can ask for in a small claims case is $3,500.

They don't need to hire an attorney, because they can file a lawsuit in Mississippi small claims court, but in Mississippi they can hire an attorney to help them in small claims court if they choose to.
An attorney will likely cost them more than the $2300 you charged.

At a month to post the gallery, and a few months to produce the Album, I have serious doubts a judge will be sympathetic to your side in small claims court.

I'd have to agree with KMH, yet again. If this does go to court I have serious reservations that you'd win the case. Derrel did make a good point though, it might be easier to deal with the husband in this situation. I would seriously consider offering them something in addition to what you've already offered - not a full refund of course but unfortunately you've gotten yourself into a situation here that may not be all that easy to get out of because of the delay. I understand that you did all this for less than you would have, etc, etc - but that's all water under the bridge at this point.

If it were me I'd cut my losses, give the client a little extra and settle the matter. Best case scenario maybe you can do another shoot for them so all you'll be out is a little bit of your time - but even if this does take some money out of your pocket in the long run I think you'll be better off. You might end up taking a loss on this shoot, but consider it a business expense. Your paying for the experience, and you'll never forget to get a signed contract again prior to a shoot.

 

[bratkinson]

As a computer consultant, I learned the hard way about doing business with friends with only a verbal agreement. I blew 10 months of more than full time, including 8-9 months of travel expenses to the Washington DC area, that I ate, and got paid a grand total of $2500.00. And at that point in time, my billing rate was $45/hr + expenses. It was a VERY hard lesson to learn the HARD way. I've also learned the HARD way don't have a friend as an employee or boss. In all the above cases, the friendships were destroyed forever.

The advice about contracts is a lesson you may ultimately get an expensive lesson in learning. I'd perhaps offer $500 off, or portion less than 50% of the total.

My big concern is that you essentially promised more than you could deliver in a reasonable time. You shot the wedding in MAY and here it's 5.5 =MONTHS= later and you STILL haven't produced what you said you would? She has every right to be an overbearing, demanding bridezilla in my mind! I'm sure she has friends and they have friends, and they ALL know of your inability to deliver. If that's how you run your business, you won't be long before you starve. College classes or not, moved to a different town or not, you couldn't find what?...30-40 hours in 5.5 MONTHS to do the post processing and printing? That comes down to less than 2 hours per WEEK you couldn't find time for?

Pardon my Medicare-aged mind, but perhaps the most important thing in business is your WORD and your CREDIBILITY. I think you've succeeded in destroying both, completely.

 

[amolitor]

Tell her to pound sand.

An oral contract is still a contract. You are, as I read it, complying with the terms of the agreement. If so, then you are 100% in the right, and should not unbend on bit. If she wants to get a lawyer, well, so be it, now you have a problem. That's not going to get her the pictures any faster, though, a fact you might point out to her if she wants to lawyer up.

No refund. At least not for business reasons. If you have personal/family reasons, well, sure. That's your call, though.

 

[Braineack]

How about you finish going through the pictures and give them to the client already?