Justifiable refund?

[robbins.photo]

Tell her to pound sand.

An oral contract is still a contract. You are, as I read it, complying with the terms of the agreement. If so, then you are 100% in the right, and should not unbend on bit. If she wants to get a lawyer, well, so be it, now you have a problem. That's not going to get her the pictures any faster, though, a fact you might point out to her if she wants to lawyer up.

No refund. At least not for business reasons. If you have personal/family reasons, well, sure. That's your call, though.

Unfortunately your going to have a serious problem drawing a line in the sand here - if they do decide to take this to small claims court they won't need an attorney, and it is highly doubtful that any judge is going to believe that they agreed to pay you $2300 and then wait almost 6 months to get the photos. You have nothing in writing, so as a result it's your word against theirs, and frankly that sort of delay simply won't be considered reasonable.

While it is possible to file and have a small claims case moved to a district court, then both of you will wind up paying attorneys. Odds are good in that instance you will most likely still lose, your attorney simply doesn't have much if anything to work with here - I believe someone earlier mentioned that in that instance the couple would most likely end up spending more in attorney's fees than what they would get in damages. Actually most likely in this instance such is not the case. The most likely outcome of that scenario is that they will sue you for damages and the attorney fees, and you'll be stuck paying for your lawyer, their lawyer and giving a full refund.

Like it or not you failed to live up to the obligations of the contract, and as such at this stage it really is in your best interest to settle the matter out of court.

 

[KaughtPhotography]

Thank you for your responses. I feel as if some of you failed to read the entirety of the post. The client received every piece of product other than the album in a very timely manner. One they were very happy with in the year we have worked together (Started with their engagements in October 2012). I informed her that the book may take some time because I design my books and albums from scratch and do not use templates. I did not set out to have this business at this time in my life as I intended to finish my degree before getting into it full time. My biggest reason being that I want to be able to put all of my time into it rather than working 2 other jobs and going to school as well. However, I have clients who love what I do and I felt I should strike while the iron is hot. For the guy who said I wasn't a legitimate business because I don't have a website, I am currently redesigning my site to better my business. My website has been in service for over 2 years. I have a Tax ID, pay sales and income tax. My pricing wasn't copied from anywhere. I sat down and configured my pricing by the number of hours I shoot, estimate the hours of post processing, figure in gas, products and other expenses. Because this is the first client that has ever been disappointed by the timeline in which I delivered products, I came here for advice and basically had my character and business attacked. This is an isolated incident and one I am doing everything I can to fix. Giving her a USB drive and copyright of images from her rehearsal and wedding day was an attempt to help smooth things over for her patience. I am currently in talks with an attorney friend to draw up contracts for future clients. The lack of contract was a mistake that I made purely out of ignorance. I am learning the ins and outs of a business just as many of you did years ago and am doing so on my own. As many of my clients will tell you, I go above and beyond for my clients constantly. This incident was the first and only incident I have had where a client wasn't satisfied, hence my reason for coming here for advice. I have since talked to the bride and once she calmed down and realized that all products and services were delivered other than the book, she stopped the talk about the refund. I feel sure her husband let her know that he would not pursue this. As a side note, since she moved into the small town I often do business in, she has stirred more trouble than you can shake a stick at, causing arguments with several people. In hindsight, I should have had a contract and also have designed and delivered the book earlier. Thank you for the unbiased, level headed information I did receive.

God bless

 

[robbins.photo]

Thank you for your responses. I feel as if some of you failed to read the entirety of the post. The client received every piece of product other than the album in a very timely manner. One they were very happy with in the year we have worked together (Started with their engagements in October 2012). I informed her that the book may take some time because I design my books and albums from scratch and do not use templates. I did not set out to have this business at this time in my life as I intended to finish my degree before getting into it full time. My biggest reason being that I want to be able to put all of my time into it rather than working 2 other jobs and going to school as well. However, I have clients who love what I do and I felt I should strike while the iron is hot. For the guy who said I wasn't a legitimate business because I don't have a website, I am currently redesigning my site to better my business. My website has been in service for over 2 years. I have a Tax ID, pay sales and income tax. My pricing wasn't copied from anywhere. I sat down and configured my pricing by the number of hours I shoot, estimate the hours of post processing, figure in gas, products and other expenses. Because this is the first client that has ever been disappointed by the timeline in which I delivered products, I came here for advice and basically had my character and business attacked. This is an isolated incident and one I am doing everything I can to fix. Giving her a USB drive and copyright of images from her rehearsal and wedding day was an attempt to help smooth things over for her patience. I am currently in talks with an attorney friend to draw up contracts for future clients. The lack of contract was a mistake that I made purely out of ignorance. I am learning the ins and outs of a business just as many of you did years ago and am doing so on my own. As many of my clients will tell you, I go above and beyond for my clients constantly. This incident was the first and only incident I have had where a client wasn't satisfied, hence my reason for coming here for advice. I have since talked to the bride and once she calmed down and realized that all products and services were delivered other than the book, she stopped the talk about the refund. I feel sure her husband let her know that he would not pursue this. As a side note, since she moved into the small town I often do business in, she has stirred more trouble than you can shake a stick at, causing arguments with several people. In hindsight, I should have had a contract and also have designed and delivered the book earlier. Thank you for the unbiased, level headed information I did receive.

God bless

Well hopefully at least some of this was of benefit to you. The contract thing is a really good idea - don't leave home without it. As for the rest, I'll wish you luck in your future endeavors. In the finaly analysis of course it really doesn't matter what anyone here thinks, just worry about the folks signing your paycheck - theirs is really the only opinion that matters. As usually, just my 2 cents worth.

 

[cbarnard7]

If it were me I'd do three things:

1. Tell the bride that you're not going to give her a refund. Invite her somewhere (maybe to get coffee or something) and be stern with her. Say, "When we first talked, I told you it would be a little while and you said that was fine. I would have never been able to shoot the wedding at this price that I gave you if I knew it would be a problem." Tell her you understand her frustration, but to not forget that you've already made amends (by the USB/slashing prices). Tell her that you hope you understand and that you will have the book within a few days

2. I'd make sure that in the future, you don't let this even become an issue- a true professional doesn't let outside issues interfere with their work, regardless of the profession. As an old boss of mine would say, "Leave your sh*t at the door when you come in."

3. Move on

 

[amolitor]

You sound pretty on top of your business. You did great. Well done!

TPF has in the past had a culture of assuming that new members talking about business haven't got a clue, and are stupid besides. We're largely past that, thank goodness, but vestiges remain. It's hard to shake the attitude, even if you're basically a good person and consciously trying to shake it. Sorry you got a little bit of that leftover backlash.

 

[kathyt]

Thank you for your responses. I feel as if some of you failed to read the entirety of the post. The client received every piece of product other than the album in a very timely manner. One they were very happy with in the year we have worked together (Started with their engagements in October 2012). I informed her that the book may take some time because I design my books and albums from scratch and do not use templates. I did not set out to have this business at this time in my life as I intended to finish my degree before getting into it full time. My biggest reason being that I want to be able to put all of my time into it rather than working 2 other jobs and going to school as well. However, I have clients who love what I do and I felt I should strike while the iron is hot. For the guy who said I wasn't a legitimate business because I don't have a website, I am currently redesigning my site to better my business. My website has been in service for over 2 years. I have a Tax ID, pay sales and income tax. My pricing wasn't copied from anywhere. I sat down and configured my pricing by the number of hours I shoot, estimate the hours of post processing, figure in gas, products and other expenses. Because this is the first client that has ever been disappointed by the timeline in which I delivered products, I came here for advice and basically had my character and business attacked. This is an isolated incident and one I am doing everything I can to fix. Giving her a USB drive and copyright of images from her rehearsal and wedding day was an attempt to help smooth things over for her patience. I am currently in talks with an attorney friend to draw up contracts for future clients. The lack of contract was a mistake that I made purely out of ignorance. I am learning the ins and outs of a business just as many of you did years ago and am doing so on my own. As many of my clients will tell you, I go above and beyond for my clients constantly. This incident was the first and only incident I have had where a client wasn't satisfied, hence my reason for coming here for advice. I have since talked to the bride and once she calmed down and realized that all products and services were delivered other than the book, she stopped the talk about the refund. I feel sure her husband let her know that he would not pursue this. As a side note, since she moved into the small town I often do business in, she has stirred more trouble than you can shake a stick at, causing arguments with several people. In hindsight, I should have had a contract and also have designed and delivered the book earlier. Thank you for the unbiased, level headed information I did receive.

God bless

Millers albums take a couple days. Give her the album and be done. All this other stuff about school, work, and moving makes no difference to the client. They paid you and they expect their products. You need specifics in your time frames. You will have your album in 4 weeks. You will have your proofs in 2 weeks. (just examples) Stick to these time frames. I would be irritated too if I was the client. I want my purchased items ASAP as a consumer, or I want to know when I will receive them.

 

[amolitor]

Before too many more people make themselves look like idiots, let me re-quote the text from the original post:

I told her beforehand that the wedding gallery would take some time to be up, maybe a month, and that the Album would take a few months

The client's expectations were correctly set. Yabbering on about how 'it's not professional' or 'it's normally done this way' or 'the client obviously wants' is irrelevant. The deal was set, the deal has been honored. The deal has even been sweetened a bit, as the client got a bit irritated despite the deal being honored as specified. And now the client has been soothed down and all seems to be well.

 

[KaughtPhotography]

Before too many more people make themselves look like idiots, let me re-quote the text from the original post:

I told her beforehand that the wedding gallery would take some time to be up, maybe a month, and that the Album would take a few months

The client's expectations were correctly set. Yabbering on about how 'it's not professional' or 'it's normally done this way' or 'the client obviously wants' is irrelevant. The deal was set, the deal has been honored. The deal has even been sweetened a bit, as the client got a bit irritated despite the deal being honored as specified. And now the client has been soothed down and all seems to be well.

Thank you for noting that. The problem may be that I went around the world explaining my situation, but the point of my question was basically if she had basis for a refund in a legal situation because we didn't have a written contract. All has been settled. Thanks so much for your responses. I don't feel so unwelcome now that some of you have been so kind.

 

[kathyt]

Before too many more people make themselves look like idiots, let me re-quote the text from the original post:

I told her beforehand that the wedding gallery would take some time to be up, maybe a month, and that the Album would take a few months

The client's expectations were correctly set. Yabbering on about how 'it's not professional' or 'it's normally done this way' or 'the client obviously wants' is irrelevant. The deal was set, the deal has been honored. The deal has even been sweetened a bit, as the client got a bit irritated despite the deal being honored as specified. And now the client has been soothed down and all seems to be well.

Excuse me amolitor. I don't need your "re-quotes." I read the thread myself, and responded accordingly. Carry on with your own yabbering.

 

[cbarnard7]

I think she handled the situation just fine (given that she explained the situation to the client earlier) but, you can't continue to deliver photos so late in the future. I agree Kathy- in the future, I wouldn't shoot a wedding if you don't think you're going to be able to deliver the photos within a reasonable time, especially if you're just "ballparking" when they'll be done. I'd be irritated if every time I asked where my photos were, the photographer said, "they're coming soon." And on top of that, when you decided to bring the bride the USB, you said, "but because of work conflicts..." it just adds fuel to their already burning fire. Take it as a learning lesson.

 

[terri]

Hi Krista, and welcome to TPF! I have moved your thread slightly, to our Aspiring Pros forum, since you are not yet in business full time and this seems a more appropriate place. I am glad to hear this all turned out well for you - sounds like the client is one of those folks spoiling for a fight everywhere she goes! You have learned a lot from this experience with no major harm done, at least.

Some of the comments here have indeed been less than helpful. If you are satisfied with the answers you have received, and the matter is closed, I will be happy to close this thread for you, if you'd like.

I hope the initial "welcome" wasn't bad enough to turn you off the site - we have lots of great people here, pros and amateurs alike, and you can learn a lot from them. Stick around!

 

[otherprof]

Just wondering: In what part of the US are they offering summer classes in November? This looks like a time-management problem to me.

 

[paigew]

I think you handled it well. People like to throw out the words "refund and sue" when they are having little baby fits. Stick to your guns, she got an awesome deal and as mentioned, she was warned about the timeframe. Good luck on your business endeavors

 

[terri]

Just wondering: In what part of the US are they offering summer classes in November? This looks like a time-management problem to me.

Another misguided judgment call on the OP, based on incomprehension of the facts. The OP stated she did the wedding last May...the summer classes were going to keep her covered up, time-wise, which is why she warned the client that it would take several weeks/months to get all of the product to her.

Read and understand what you're reading before passing judgements.

 

[The_Traveler]

A purely functional problem.

I suggest splitting any block of text that is more then 3 or 4 lines into a separate paragraph.
For me, and others I bet, large blocks are incredibly difficult to read on screen and retain the sense.