Manual exposure question

[BrentC]

Lately I have been learning to take BIF's. When doing stills of birds I use Aperture priority and keep the histogram in the viewfinder and adjust EV as needed. With BIF's I was using Shutter priority but either was too slow (everything happens to fast) or forget to use EV to adjust. Also as the bird moves from different backgrounds it requires EV to be adjusted. As you can see in my latest BIF practice, taking a look at the crow shots, it was way under exposed. I had to bring exposure up in LR but of course lose a lot of detail.

Crows and Gulls

So now I want to use Manual exposure. From what I understand once you set exposure up properly before hand it will not matter if background changes, exposure will be the same. Let me know if I got this right:

- set your aperture, shutter speed
- Take picture of something neutral, blue sky, grass in sunlight, brick wall, etc
- Look at histogram and adjust ISO as needed.

Is this correct? And if I need to change shutter speed or aperture I would need to re-set?

 

[Ysarex]

Let's see your unedited uncropped camera original of the crow from underneath.

I suspect the problem you're struggling with is dynamic range. The crow from underneath is much darker than the sky above which is a light source. The crow is basically backlit. What you probably need to do is increase the exposure for the crow pretty substantially to lighten the detail and at the same time hold or decrease the exposure for the sky so as not to blow it out. Switching to full manual won't help with that.

If the image is cropped (I suspect) then the camera is basically setting exposure from the sky -- a + EC in that case would typically be appropriate, but not enough to blow out the sky.

Because of your requirement for a fast shutter speed many photographers tackling the same subject will put the camera in manual (set shutter and f/stop) and then set the ISO to auto allowing the camera to handling processing the output -- (making sure the f/stop shutter combination couldn't possibly require an ISO value lower than the camera can accommodate).

Joe

 

[BrentC]

Let's see your unedited uncropped camera original of the crow from underneath.

I suspect the problem you're struggling with is dynamic range. The crow from underneath is much darker than the sky above which is a light source. The crow is basically backlit. What you probably need to do is increase the exposure for the crow pretty substantially to lighten the detail and at the same time hold or decrease the exposure for the sky so as not to blow it out. Switching to full manual won't help with that.

If the image is cropped (I suspect) then the camera is basically setting exposure from the sky -- a + EC in that case would typically be appropriate, but not enough to blow out the sky.

Because of your requirement for a fast shutter speed many photographers tackling the same subject will put the camera in manual (set shutter and f/stop) and then set the ISO to auto allowing the camera to handling processing the output -- (making sure the f/stop shutter combination couldn't possibly require an ISO value lower than the camera can accommodate).

Joe

I'll have to link to the RAW file later tonight. I understand what your saying about taking the photo under the crow. But I also have pics out from under the crow like the #2 in that same thread and many others that were totally under exposed. And putting the camera in Auto ISO in Manual mode would give me the same results as Auto ISO in Aperture? I want the exposure to be set so it doesn't matter what background the bird flies into I don't have to adjust exposure. Would this not mean setting ISO based on histogram before?
The whole poinbt is I want to get away from using EV to adjust exposure. There is no time for that in BIF's.

 

[Derrel]

What I've found is that you need to add a set amount of + Exposure Compensation for the size of the subject, relative to the background's brightness. The more sky there is, and the smaller the subject, the more tendency for the metering to read "too much of the sky". if the subject is very large within the frame, then the sky becomes less of an influencer on the meter reading used to set the so-called correct exposure.

How about adding +1.7 EV or even +2.0 EV, and seeing if that doesn't help.

 

[Ysarex]

Let's see your unedited uncropped camera original of the crow from underneath.

I suspect the problem you're struggling with is dynamic range. The crow from underneath is much darker than the sky above which is a light source. The crow is basically backlit. What you probably need to do is increase the exposure for the crow pretty substantially to lighten the detail and at the same time hold or decrease the exposure for the sky so as not to blow it out. Switching to full manual won't help with that.

If the image is cropped (I suspect) then the camera is basically setting exposure from the sky -- a + EC in that case would typically be appropriate, but not enough to blow out the sky.

Because of your requirement for a fast shutter speed many photographers tackling the same subject will put the camera in manual (set shutter and f/stop) and then set the ISO to auto allowing the camera to handling processing the output -- (making sure the f/stop shutter combination couldn't possibly require an ISO value lower than the camera can accommodate).

Joe

I'll have to link to the RAW file later tonight. I understand what your saying about taking the photo under the crow. But I also have pics out from under the crow like the #2 in that same thread and many others that were totally under exposed. And putting the camera in Auto ISO in Manual mode would give me the same results as Auto ISO in Aperture? I want the exposure to be set so it doesn't matter what background the bird flies into I don't have to adjust exposure. Would this not mean setting ISO based on histogram before?
The whole poinbt is I want to get away from using EV to adjust exposure. There is no time for that in BIF's.

Same amount of time required to change a manual exposure as to change an EC (could depend somewhat on camera design -- I'm used to EC at my finger tips). You're right that for an unchanging light condition the exposure won't change regardless of changes in the background. Trouble with that is if you turn to the side or back. Say you lock in exposure manually for full sun shining on the scene before you and then while your working your companion grabs your sleeve and whispers look over there!! pointing to your left and slightly behind you -- you now have the wrong exposure locked in.

Joe

 

[BrentC]

Let's see your unedited uncropped camera original of the crow from underneath.

I suspect the problem you're struggling with is dynamic range. The crow from underneath is much darker than the sky above which is a light source. The crow is basically backlit. What you probably need to do is increase the exposure for the crow pretty substantially to lighten the detail and at the same time hold or decrease the exposure for the sky so as not to blow it out. Switching to full manual won't help with that.

If the image is cropped (I suspect) then the camera is basically setting exposure from the sky -- a + EC in that case would typically be appropriate, but not enough to blow out the sky.

Because of your requirement for a fast shutter speed many photographers tackling the same subject will put the camera in manual (set shutter and f/stop) and then set the ISO to auto allowing the camera to handling processing the output -- (making sure the f/stop shutter combination couldn't possibly require an ISO value lower than the camera can accommodate).

Joe

I'll have to link to the RAW file later tonight. I understand what your saying about taking the photo under the crow. But I also have pics out from under the crow like the #2 in that same thread and many others that were totally under exposed. And putting the camera in Auto ISO in Manual mode would give me the same results as Auto ISO in Aperture? I want the exposure to be set so it doesn't matter what background the bird flies into I don't have to adjust exposure. Would this not mean setting ISO based on histogram before?
The whole poinbt is I want to get away from using EV to adjust exposure. There is no time for that in BIF's.

Same amount of time required to change a manual exposure as to change an EC (could depend somewhat on camera design -- I'm used to EC at my finger tips). You're right that for an unchanging light condition the exposure won't change regardless of changes in the background. Trouble with that is if you turn to the side or back. Say you lock in exposure manually for full sun shining on the scene before you and then while your working your companion grabs your sleeve and whispers look over there!! pointing to your left and slightly behind you -- you now have the wrong exposure locked in.

Joe

Hmm...I might have to experiment a bit. I also can have ISO at my fingertips like EV/EC, giving me on the fly adjust-ability but also setup for a certain condition. Basically I want to use a setting that will give me the least adjustment required just because of the speed you need to get the BIF and also changing from a still shot to BIF shot fast.

What I have setup is a custom setting for wildlife/bird stills and one for BIF's that I can easily change between the two on the fly. When I go on walks I seem to be constantly switching between the two. Tell me if I got this right:

With Manual
- Setup exposure ahead of time. I try to set myself up so light is in front of subject most of the time so thats how I would set the initial exposure
- This will keep proper exposure no matter the background. Especially good for partly cloudy skies.
- Step up/down ISO if subject off to side or back
- Step up/down ISO if subject all dark or all white
- Although I tend to keep at widest aperture Manual allows me to keep shutter speed but to adjust Aperture if trying to get more than one bird side in flight.

With Aperture/Shutter
- ISO on Auto and compensate with EV/EC
- As background changes EV/EC needs adjustment
- EV/EC adjust if subject side or back
- EV/EC adjust if subject all dark or all white
- With A priority I have to make always make sure shutter speed is up or turn off auto ISO and adjust
- With S priority I have no control over aperture when/if I need it.

So a little more control with Manual and also the least amount of adjustment especially if shooting in the same direction as initial setup.

 

[Derrel]

I think it would be easier to simply use AUTO ISO in Manual mode, and that wya you can select the desired f/stop, and you can also pik the needed f/stop to get a sharp, crisp picture that stops movement of the subject, depending on the lens focal length and the speed of movement of the subject.

You can use Manual mode and AUTO ISO and also get the Exposure Comoensation to work in that mode as well; it makes little sense to me to use either Aperture or Shutter priority for wildlife or bird photography in an AUTO ISO mode. I mean...why?

Pick the desired depth of field: f/2.8 to f/4 for shallow DOF with a long prime; or f/5.6 for a fast shiutter speed and a bit of focusing cushion; or pick f/8 for the 150-600, so the optics are at their best f/stop. Pick a shutter speed that can handle everything--wind, subject speed, lens focal length/magnification. Let's say you're gonna be shooting seagulls flying along the shoreline, looking for small crabs to nab...pick the speed of 1/1250 second with the 300mm zoom setting...set f/6.3 or f/7.1....set the E. Comp to + 1.7 to shoot into string backlighting...you've got this all set up ahead of time, in Manual mode, with AUTO ISO...

...as you wrote yourself, "
- With A priority I have to make always make sure shutter speed is up or turn off auto ISO and adjust
- With S priority I have no control over aperture when/if I need it."

Annnnnnnd that's why you ought to just stick with AUTO ISO and a manually pre-set baseline exposure.

 

[petrochemist]

I tend to find the underside of a bird flying over me is much worse lit than the side view of one flying by. Manual mode can cope with that only if you correct it appropriately. My preference would probably be spot metering in either Av or Sv.
In some cases Auto ISO may be needed as well to keep shutter speeds within the cameras range. Plenty depends on the size of the bird & the relative background brightness etc. One of the reasons BIF is often tricky to get right.

 

[weepete]

Lately I have been learning to take BIF's. When doing stills of birds I use Aperture priority and keep the histogram in the viewfinder and adjust EV as needed. With BIF's I was using Shutter priority but either was too slow (everything happens to fast) or forget to use EV to adjust. Also as the bird moves from different backgrounds it requires EV to be adjusted. As you can see in my latest BIF practice, taking a look at the crow shots, it was way under exposed. I had to bring exposure up in LR but of course lose a lot of detail.

Crows and Gulls

So now I want to use Manual exposure. From what I understand once you set exposure up properly before hand it will not matter if background changes, exposure will be the same. Let me know if I got this right:

- set your aperture, shutter speed
- Take picture of something neutral, blue sky, grass in sunlight, brick wall, etc
- Look at histogram and adjust ISO as needed.

Is this correct? And if I need to change shutter speed or aperture I would need to re-set?

Well....sort of. If you set a manual exposure then it will be right for the lighting conditions you took it under. But you will still need to expose for your subject. So if you carefully spot meter for a neutral exposure then that should be good for neutral coloured birds, you might still have to adjust for black or white birds as they mmight still be out of your dynamic range. Also there is a delay with metering, from memory it's around 1/4 of a sec but don't quote me on that one. So using auto ISO and metering to control exposure still rewuired you to hold the bird in the metering area for a time which can be very difficult with small fast moving birds.

I've run into situations where noting the ISOs for good exposure for black, white and neutral birds then manually setting exposures and just quick switching between ISOs has been best. Sometimes you just need to practise enough to get qiuck fingers.

 

[BrentC]

I think it would be easier to simply use AUTO ISO in Manual mode, and that wya you can select the desired f/stop, and you can also pik the needed f/stop to get a sharp, crisp picture that stops movement of the subject, depending on the lens focal length and the speed of movement of the subject.

You can use Manual mode and AUTO ISO and also get the Exposure Comoensation to work in that mode as well; it makes little sense to me to use either Aperture or Shutter priority for wildlife or bird photography in an AUTO ISO mode. I mean...why?

Pick the desired depth of field: f/2.8 to f/4 for shallow DOF with a long prime; or f/5.6 for a fast shiutter speed and a bit of focusing cushion; or pick f/8 for the 150-600, so the optics are at their best f/stop. Pick a shutter speed that can handle everything--wind, subject speed, lens focal length/magnification. Let's say you're gonna be shooting seagulls flying along the shoreline, looking for small crabs to nab...pick the speed of 1/1250 second with the 300mm zoom setting...set f/6.3 or f/7.1....set the E. Comp to + 1.7 to shoot into string backlighting...you've got this all set up ahead of time, in Manual mode, with AUTO ISO...

...as you wrote yourself, "
- With A priority I have to make always make sure shutter speed is up or turn off auto ISO and adjust
- With S priority I have no control over aperture when/if I need it."

Annnnnnnd that's why you ought to just stick with AUTO ISO and a manually pre-set baseline exposure.

EV/EC does not work in Manual mode. I would need to change ISO and not leave it on auto.

 

[BrentC]

I'll just start testing between the different modes to find what suites me best. It looks like from here and reading elsewhere its more a matter of preference, M, A or S. Either way I would need to learn how to adjust ISO or EV quickly and knowing the subject. After a while it should become more automatic. Right now I'm just happy that I have been able to get some decent shots. Practice, practice, practice.

 

[greybeard]

This is what I do for action tele: I use (A)perture priority, Auto ISO with the minimum shutter speed set to 1/1000. I'm using a 70-300 which is only SO-SO at 300 so I set my Aperture to at least f/8. This way my shutter speed is always at least 1/1000 unless the ISO maxes out, and it is pretty tough for the camera to over or under expose. This is my (U)ser 1 setup in my D750 and D7000.

 

[BrentC]

This is what I do for action tele: I use (A)perture priority, Auto ISO with the minimum shutter speed set to 1/1000. I'm using a 70-300 which is only SO-SO at 300 so I set my Aperture to at least f/8. This way my shutter speed is always at least 1/1000 unless the ISO maxes out, and it is pretty tough for the camera to over or under expose. This is my (U)ser 1 setup in my D750 and D7000.

I think that is exactly what I didn't know I was looking for! Thanks! I did not know that was an option or thought to look. I think it would suite me perfectly.

 

[petrochemist]

EV/EC does not work in Manual mode.

I suspect that's something that varies with camera model/manufacturer.
I'm pretty sure it does work on some of my cameras. Though perhaps it's only in Pentax's TAv mode.

 

[astroNikon]

This is what I do for action tele: I use (A)perture priority, Auto ISO with the minimum shutter speed set to 1/1000. I'm using a 70-300 which is only SO-SO at 300 so I set my Aperture to at least f/8. This way my shutter speed is always at least 1/1000 unless the ISO maxes out, and it is pretty tough for the camera to over or under expose. This is my (U)ser 1 setup in my D750 and D7000.

I think that is exactly what I didn't know I was looking for! Thanks! I did not know that was an option or thought to look. I think it would suite me perfectly.

Essentially that like what I would do
but in Manual Exposure
Set aperture to f/8
set Shutter to 1/1000
and set ISO to AUTO ISO
- a great Sport setup. I use f/8 for my Tamron 150-600 lens because f/8 is a sharp aperture for it.

by using Minimal Shutter in Aperture Priority one essentially is using manual in a way. Except allows the camera to adjust shutter higher if needed. But by fixing shutter to a speed that you know is needed for the environment then you are only allowing the floating ISO to control exposure, which eliminates one more fudge factor by the camera.

For me I don't want a higher Shutter as that would then invoke a higher ISO. So by fixing Shutter to as low as possible for the situation I should get the lower ISO and thus lower ISO noise for the best image.

but essentially the same way to get to the same conclusion.