Newbie needs buying advice for outdoor and lower light photography

LBCarl · Jun 1, 2014

Greetings,

I'm going to be taking an intro to photography class offered by a local rec center in September, and it requires a DSLR. I've been using a point and shoot for years, and only recently decided I wanted to learn more and do more with photography. I live by the beach, and plan on doing a lot of outdoor photography but I also want to at least start learning to do some night photography. I realize there is a lot to learn, but I want to get a camera that I can grow into to some extent, so I'm not necessarily looking for an entry level DSLR. Budget to start can be $600-$800 and I'm not going to quibble if I have to go to $850. I've been reading a ton of photography blogs and to be honest, I think it's all just getting a bit blurry, no pun intended. I'm looking of course at Nikon's 3300 and 5300, but I also have read in several places that some Pentax models like K-30 does quite well with low light photography, and weather sealing is appealing to me given that I'll be by the water, at the beach, on boats while shooting fairly frequently if all goes to plan. If anyone has any input or recommendations based on my planned uses, I'd greatly appreciate hearing from you. Thanks!

Overread · Jun 1, 2014

A few thoughts:

1) Define night-time photography. Do you mean things like starscapes, landscapes and such or more akin to night-life of people at say bars, clubs, parties etc....
If its the former then you don't nessessarily need fantastic night performance (which in a DSLR is basically high ISO capabilities) since you'll likely be able to use longer exposures instead of raising the ISO. If it the latter then you'll need both high ISO capabilities, but also wide aperture lenses (small f number).

2) Seaspray and sand are not good things for DSLRs; although unless you're right in the wind/spray you should be fine with most DSLRs; if its a bit stronger then a cheap OPTech rainsleeve or any one of a number of weather covers for DSLRs can protect lens and camera from the worst. Pentax does have some of the best weathersealed bodies on the market at present (almost all others are more akin to weather resistant than fully sealed even if they are advertised as weathersealed).

goodguy · Jun 1, 2014

From reading your intro I think you are already on a road to learn about the wonderful world of photography.
In your price range I would recommend Nikon D5200 with its kit lens and to that add Nikon 50mm 1.8G which is a wonderfully sharp lens, very affordable and most important to you it is perfect for night photography and as a bonus great for portraits on a crop sensor camera like the D5200

Why Nikon D5200 and not the D3300 or D5300 ?
Well first the sensor on the D5200 is better then the one on the D3300
As for the D5300 vs the D5200, well the D5300 has very little over the D5200, they are almost same camera with few bells and whistles and for me the main issue between them is the lack of AA filter on the D5300 and honestly its not such a big deal for a novice or a hobbyist, in the extra money left if you will get the D5200 over the D5300 you can get the added 50mm lens I recommended which I think will be much more helpful then any small difference between the D5300 has over the D5200

LBCarl · Jun 1, 2014

Hi Overread. Thank you for your reply! Initially, I was thinking starscapes and landscapes but I was also thinking down the line night time photography when I'm traveling, such as while in Las Vegas, NYC and elsewhere. That latter is more something I want to build up to and gain some skill at in the coming years as I'm planning to travel to Europe in 2016. The weathersealing on the Pentax definitely interests me, as does the 100% coverage in the view finder but those are the only two features on the Pentax that are leading me to consider it, and I don't know if those are enough to make me go that route as opposed to Nikon. This is actually a tough decision.

Overread said:
A few thoughts:

1) Define night-time photography. Do you mean things like starscapes, landscapes and such or more akin to night-life of people at say bars, clubs, parties etc....
If its the former then you don't nessessarily need fantastic night performance (which in a DSLR is basically high ISO capabilities) since you'll likely be able to use longer exposures instead of raising the ISO. If it the latter then you'll need both high ISO capabilities, but also wide aperture lenses (small f number).

2) Seaspray and sand are not good things for DSLRs; although unless you're right in the wind/spray you should be fine with most DSLRs; if its a bit stronger then a cheap OPTech rainsleeve or any one of a number of weather covers for DSLRs can protect lens and camera from the worst. Pentax does have some of the best weathersealed bodies on the market at present (almost all others are more akin to weather resistant than fully sealed even if they are advertised as weathersealed).

LBCarl · Jun 1, 2014

Thank you goodguy! I think I'm on the right road, but I felt that the more I read, the further away I was getting from making a decision which is how and why I ended up here. I didn't realize initially how difficult this decision was but I'm realizing that whichever brand I go with is the one that I'd be better off sticking with provided I'm satisfied with the choice. I did notice some seemingly good deals on the 5200 which I'm going to take another look at. I think I had read that the 5300 has a new processor...Is there any noticeable difference to that, or any benefit to me as a new hobbyist to having it?

goodguy said:
From reading your intro I think you are already on a road to learn about the wonderful world of photography.
In your price range I would recommend Nikon D5200 with its kit lens and to that add Nikon 50mm 1.8G which is a wonderfully sharp lens, very affordable and most important to you it is perfect for night photography and as a bonus great for portraits on a crop sensor camera like the D5200

Why Nikon D5200 and not the D3300 or D5300 ?
Well first the sensor on the D5200 is better then the one on the D3300
As for the D5300 vs the D5200, well the D5300 has very little over the D5200, they are almost same camera with few bells and whistles and for me the main issue between them is the lack of AA filter on the D5300 and honestly its not such a big deal for a novice or a hobbyist, in the extra money left if you will get the D5200 over the D5300 you can get the added 50mm lens I recommended which I think will be much more helpful then any small difference between the D5300 has over the D5200

Derrel · Jun 1, 2014

Pentax is a brand name that still commands loyalty and respect in Japan. Pentax has always made cameras for photographers. Canon makes cameras for engineers and end-users. Nikon makes cameras for photographers. Sony makes cameras for electronics consumers. Samsung makes consumer electronics based on what the early entrants have done, and tries to come LATE to market, and to then offer a better solution than earlier entrants. Pentax and Nikon still have a fundamentally old-fashioned camera design ethos; Canon and SOny have adopted fully "electronic" interfaces. Fuji with the X line, is going back to retro control, as in the XT-1, which is very old-fashioned.

I've used Pentax cameras in the 1980's and early 1990's. Pentax focuses, changes f/stops, mounts, un-mounts, and shifts settings in the "old" direction, which Nikon started using back in the 1950's. Canon operates backwards from that. So, Nikon and Pentax are actually VERY similar in many respects; in the latest cameras, Nikon and Pentax are using the SAME sensor in some models. Pentax has always made cameras that have a HUGE amount of "real photographer feedback" incorporated into their design. It's a matter of company/brand/name pride. In the late 1960's, Pentax was probably AS popular, or more-popular with professionals than the Nikon F system was: Canon's F-system had not even been developed. Pentax has a long,long history of making really GOOD-handling cameras, aimed at people who realllly like to shoot. A guy can go back and forth between Nikon and Pentax, and things feel similar. THe other brands feel and act "differently". Not saying better or worse, but definitely "differently".

I looked at Adorama and the K-30 + 18-55 kit zoom for $619 to $629 was out of stock...it's goinmg on two years old or older, so you ought to pay LESS than $600 for it with a kit zoom, I think. The review of it is very favorable Pentax K-30 Review: Digital Photography Review

remark13 · Jun 1, 2014

LBCarl,
Welcome. I recently went through the same dilemma as you are in now. I was also torn between nikon and pentax, but in the end the Pentax seemed to offer some of the core things I wanted 100% viewfinder, weather sealing and well thought out controls (those 2 dials are awesome for quick adjustments) that were not offered until about mid level for other brands.
I also had never used a dslr previously but have found learning the k-50 pleasantly easy, I don't have to dig through layers of menus to make adjustments. Very user friendly.
I am somewhat jealous of the support the other companies get from third party companies for glass etc. Any brand is fine, although if you haven't go to a store and pick up the cameras in mind. Canon was knocked right out when I did this Best of luck, I am so glad I don't need to go through that decsion anytime soon. Now it's just which lens should I get.

LBCarl · Jun 2, 2014

Hi Derrel. Thank you for your reply. From what I was reading at least on the entry level DSLR's, it seems like the Pentax gives more manual controls..by that I mean less having to go through menu's for settings and I like that. What about the lenses for Pentax? I have no old ones so the backward compatibility I've read about doesn't really apply to me. Do their lenses stack up well against Nikon?

LBCarl · Jun 2, 2014

Hi remark, Thanks! Digging through menus definitely tends to bother me, at least on my point and shoot. Have you done any night time shooting with your K-50? I've definitely got Canon crossed off my list it wasn't comfortable in my hands. The Nikon 3300 felt good and comfortable and I hadn't tried the Pentax, though I will. When you say support the others get from 3rd party companies for glass, does that mean Pentax leaves you pretty much limited to only buying Pentax lenses?

JoeW · Jun 2, 2014

Okay, a couple of comments in a stream of consciousness....

1. If you're going to be shooting indoors and low-light than you want two things: a camera with a range in ISO settings (the higher the ISO without a lot of noise, the more ability to shoot in low light without a speed light) and fast glass (lens that has an f1.8 or f1.4 aperture). You can't afford a 200mm zoom at this point that is fast...an f2.8 200mm zoom is professional level and easily costs $900-$2,000 depending upon the lens. So whatever camera you get, you're going to want it to be good in low light (minimal noise at high ISO settings). The Nikon D5200 certainly qualifies in that regard. A great lens for low light photography and great bokeh/depth-of-field work is a 50mm (nifty fifty) f1.8 or f1.4 lens. New, the f1.4 will probably cost you 2/3rds of your budget (so you'd probably want to look at the f1.8 or a used version). But it's a lens that you will keep as long as you shoot. My 50mm f1.4 is the lens I most use with my camera and is what is on my camera right now (my default lens if you will). I'd consider just buying the body and adding on the 50mm b/c for low light shots and interesting still life, the 50mm with a narrow aperture is a great tool. There is a Nikon 35mm f1.8 that is very cheap new, very light and small and with a crop-frame is the equivalent of a 50mm lens and works like a charm--it's a terrific buy.

2. If you're shooting at the beach, you're going to want a zoom. You don't want to be swapping lens in a sandy/windy environment. That said, a zoom lens isn't a good option for you right now b/c like I said in the earlier post, you really can't afford a fast zoom right now

3. Many camera classes will ask you to use manual focus (so you really learn your camera). So when you go to a Best Buy or other store to at least get your hands on the camera bodies you're looking at, try using manual focus (i.e.: switch the program dial to "M") and see how easy it is to manipulate.

4. The Nikon D3XXX and D5XXX series tend to be smaller and lighter bodies than their competitors. That's b/c they don't have an autofocus motor in the body--for AF they rely on a lens having an AF motor. That's not a problem if you buy lens with autofocus motors in them. But just beware that if you get a Nikon D5200 that this is something you're buying in to. Now, the smaller body and weight is a plus if you're talking about being on boats (b/c you'll want to have your hands free a lot of the time so a camera that is a little more comfortable on a sling or harness or strap will matter a lot for you).

5. When you buy the body lens, seriously think about getting a circular polarizer filter to fit the lens you get. If you're shooting on or near the water, you'll get a ton of glare and lots of bright sunlight. The CP filter helps with that plus gives some oomph to your sky.

6. Here are some other things to start thinking of:
--good tripod (minimum of $180). You'll need this for extended exposure (like shoot star trails or the moon at night, blurred water around rocks, etc.). Also invaluable for shooting in the "blue hour" (just before sunrise or just after sunset).
--graduated neutral density filter. Critical for shooting sunrises and sunsets.
--good cleaning tools. If you're around a beach, water, or wind, you're going to need to be using a microfibre cloth and blower often.
--a zoom that gives you something like 18mm-200mm or even further out (for shooting sea birds or other boats while you're on the water). That's the kind of lens you can put on your camera and keep it there during daylight hours. If you don't get one with an f2.8 aperture (which will easily run you over $1,000) but instead something like f4.5, that will suffice for daylight and probably cost somewhere between $300-$600.

goodguy · Jun 2, 2014

LBCarl said:
Thank you goodguy! I think I'm on the right road, but I felt that the more I read, the further away I was getting from making a decision which is how and why I ended up here. I didn't realize initially how difficult this decision was but I'm realizing that whichever brand I go with is the one that I'd be better off sticking with provided I'm satisfied with the choice. I did notice some seemingly good deals on the 5200 which I'm going to take another look at. I think I had read that the 5300 has a new processor...Is there any noticeable difference to that, or any benefit to me as a new hobbyist to having it?

The new processor obviously is a nice bonus but not a deal breaker when considering the D5200.
It just raises the already very high bar of the D5200 a bit higher but really no real big improvement, I just dont think the D5300 is worth buying when the price difference is so big, I rather go a bit higher and get the D7100 over the D5300.
A good lens will be much more helpful then the difference between the D5200 and D5300

Derrel · Jun 2, 2014

LBCarl said:
Hi Derrel. Thank you for your reply. From what I was reading at least on the entry level DSLR's, it seems like the Pentax gives more manual controls..by that I mean less having to go through menu's for settings and I like that. What about the lenses for Pentax? I have no old ones so the backward compatibility I've read about doesn't really apply to me. Do their lenses stack up well against Nikon?

Pentax has ALWAYS made good lenses. They have a good lineup of lenses made specifically for APS-C format; Pentax in fact offers the best lineup of lenses optimized for APS-C cameras. Better than Canon, better than Nikon. Pentax's older "legacy" manual focus and autofocus lenses work on their newer d-slrs.

RICOH Digital Camera Lens Lineup

Look at their 17-70mm f/4. The 10-17mm FISHEYE zoom is a rare,rare lens design that the other companies do not offer; their 18-55 kit zoom is built solidly, not like crap, the way Canon and Nikon build 18-55's; Pentax's LIMITED series is nice; check out their DA*, pronounced "D-A Star" line. 16-50mm f/2.8; 50-135mm f/2.8; 200mm prime f/2.8; and the 60-250mm f/4, and a few others.

What I am getting at is that, for a crop-body camera, Pentax's lenses are designed to be GOOD. The DA Stars would be "L-series" Canon glass, but the more important issue is the focal lengths, like the 50-135mm and the 60-250mm f/4, as well as the 200 and 300 prime, and the 16-50mm f/2.8.

Pentax also has some NEW DA Limited lenses, including a compact 20-40mm, as well as the 15mm,21mm,40mm,70mm ultra-compacts. The older Limited series offers the 31,43 and 77mm lenses.

All in all, Pentax is aiming at a very discerning lens buyer. THeir system is not "meeeeee-tooooo!".

LBCarl · Jun 2, 2014

Hi Joe. Thank you for all the input. That's a ton to consider, but I appreciate it as I'm trying to gather as much info that I can understand before deciding. I am narrowed down to the 5200 or K-50 for sure at this point with the 50mm you and goodguy recommend. It seems ideal for what I plan to do. From what I've read here and elsewhere, the price difference on the 5300 is not worth it and my money would be better spent elsewhere. The zoom is something I definitely want sooner rather than later. We have a decent amount of bird life near or over the shore I'd like to photograph...Gulls and other birds I can't ID that fly over and dive into the ocean to hunt and Plovers, which we're not allowed near because they're endangered and heavily protected. I can wait on the zoom, but I might have to splurge in early fall on that.

The class I'm taking requests familiarity with your camera's functions and features before starting and did mention in the brochure use of manual focus, as well as manual settings. It said it wasn't going to cover scene modes for example and the aim is to really learn. It sounded great to me because I like to know why and how things work, not just how to do them. Is there any issue with reliability of having AF in the lens vs in the body? Any advantages to one over the other?

It's funny that you mentioned the tripod, because I saw something on eBay from 6th Ave electronics selling as a complete kit with the 5200 and it had a tripod listed as an $28 value included and it just made me chuckle because at that so called value, I can't imagine it would be very useful. Thanks again!

LBCarl · Jun 2, 2014

Goodguy, thank you again. I definitely see what you're saying after re-reading some more reviews, looking at pricing and doing a feature comparison between the two. If I go for a Nikon, it will be the 5200. The price difference is really big and I can do just what you suggested with the 50mm lens. I went to local camera shop today on my lunch break and the sales guy was pushing really hard on the 5200 and 5300 over the Pentax but the only reason he could give me was 24mp vs 16.3. I understand that correctly, and I think I do, as long as I'm not making large prints (which I'm not planning), this isn't a major issue. Slowly, I'm getting there.

JoeW · Jun 2, 2014

LBCarl said:
Hi Joe. Thank you for all the input. That's a ton to consider, but I appreciate it as I'm trying to gather as much info that I can understand before deciding. I am narrowed down to the 5200 or K-50 for sure at this point with the 50mm you and goodguy recommend. It seems ideal for what I plan to do. From what I've read here and elsewhere, the price difference on the 5300 is not worth it and my money would be better spent elsewhere. The zoom is something I definitely want sooner rather than later. We have a decent amount of bird life near or over the shore I'd like to photograph...Gulls and other birds I can't ID that fly over and dive into the ocean to hunt and Plovers, which we're not allowed near because they're endangered and heavily protected. I can wait on the zoom, but I might have to splurge in early fall on that.

The class I'm taking requests familiarity with your camera's functions and features before starting and did mention in the brochure use of manual focus, as well as manual settings. It said it wasn't going to cover scene modes for example and the aim is to really learn. It sounded great to me because I like to know why and how things work, not just how to do them. Is there any issue with reliability of having AF in the lens vs in the body? Any advantages to one over the other?

It's funny that you mentioned the tripod, because I saw something on eBay from 6th Ave electronics selling as a complete kit with the 5200 and it had a tripod listed as an $28 value included and it just made me chuckle because at that so called value, I can't imagine it would be very useful. Thanks again!

Thanks for the compliments. You're doing your homework and that's smart.

A few comments.

1. Resist the urge to always consider the latest and most recent technology as the BEST camera. The best camera is the one you have with you and the one that fits your needs. D5200 seems to fit the bill. As an aside, it's screen (which tilts) is great for macro and product photography (two things you didn't mention but might play with if you get that body).

2. I'm biased b/c I shoot with my 50mm a lot but I think that's a smart decision for you. The reason being....it isn't a lens you're going to buy and then a year from now, replace with something better. If you get a 50mm f1.8, that lens could last you as long as you shoot DSLRs that aren't Canons (different mounting issues). Even if you end up getting a different zoom down the road (which is what I think you'll do b/c of your shooting on the water, nature and landscapes), that 50mm will stay in your kit bag. Meanwhile, I have a bunch of kit lens that came with various bodies that just gather dust. For your specific needs (shooting with indoor light and no flash, or shooting in poor light or the dark), a kit lens is probably unusable.

3. A poor tripod is worse than no tripod at all. If you don't have a tripod and need to take a long exposure, you get the camera on a brick...or brace yourself against a door...or bungee it to a tree or post. But with a tripod (even a POS) you think "I've got a steady platform." Nope. Budget for a Manfrotto or something of similar quality. They'll start at $160 and get a lot higher. And think about what you want it for (shooting in studio, fitting in carry-on luggage, shooting on uneven ground or sand, hiking 5 miles and then shooting, supporting a bazooka--umm, I mean a 400mm zoom) b/c the need determines the type of tripod you get.

In the meantime, definitely budget for a circular polarizer and cleaning equipment. You'll probably also want to get a spare battery and extra SD cards plus some storage (so if a HD or computer fails you don't lose everything).

As far as the zoom...1. Look into lens rental. It's especially useful to rent two lens of the same focal length (an f2.8 200mm zoom and an f4.5 200mm zoom) then go shoot some "compare and contrast" shots, especially of moving objects or in low light. That way you can make an informed decision. 2. Join photography groups near you. Or talk to people in your class and continue relationships after it ends. You may find someone willing to let you take 50-100 snaps with one of their lens. And that ability to "try it out" will inform your purchase decisions.