Opportunity to shoot a...

[KmH]

Oh, Ok then. I won't go.

Ok, but from a business perspective something doesn't add up here for me. I get the feeling there are missing details about how the Hale Farm and Village makes out in this deal and the relationship with the historical society.

IMO, at the least, you, and each member of your club, should have a contract going in, stating the specific terms. Deals like this are not good for the industry.

This is a deal between the historical society and the photo club.
They are waiting for a final agreement.
I am not privy to all the info at this time, since I am new, but it is my understanding that the club has worked hard to get to be able to photograph this event, from a stand point that the visitors don't get.

But thanks for answering my questions, you guys are awesome.

I was pretty sure you didn't have the whole story. Just be sure your eye's are wide open going in.

You're the guy on the scene and will decide if the opportunity is right for you or not.

The main thing is being aware of some of the issues.

For what it's worth. If a non-profit is involved and you provide images to them at no cost, the retail value of those images is deductible.

Also: Non-profits are allowed to make a profit.

 

[gsgary]

Oh, Ok then. I won't go.

Ok, but from a business perspective something doesn't add up here for me. I get the feeling there are missing details about how the Hale Farm and Village makes out in this deal and the relationship with the historical society.

IMO, at the least, you, and each member of your club, should have a contract going in, stating the specific terms. Deals like this are not good for the industry.

This is a deal between the historical society and the photo club.
They are waiting for a final agreement.
I am not privy to all the info at this time, since I am new, but it is my understanding that the club has worked hard to get to be able to photograph this event, from a stand point that the visitors don't get.

But thanks for answering my questions, you guys are awesome.

You do if you have a 300mmF2.8L and a 2X

 

[inTempus]

dude if u want to go, then go. who cares about the industry....some of us are in it for other reasons than $$$$.

What do you do for a living? How would you feel if people did your job for free? That would mean you would either:

a) be out of a job.

b) at the very least, be paid less for your work.

I don't buy that argument.

I work in the interactive advertising business (web dev). Since the beginning of the business I'm in, people have given away web services for free or at least for damn near free. But my company survives charging hundreds of thousands, and often times over a million dollars, per site we work on.

If I'm an auto mechanic, do I get pissed at every guy on the planet that works on his own car or his friends car in his own garage?

If you're a professional photographer who markets your services properly, you should not fear the hobbyist giving away his pictures. If you're targeting the company that has such a tight budget and is so unprofessional as to solicit the services of a hobbyist, you're working under the wrong business model.

Every single service business out there has competition from people giving away their services either for free or damn near free. The challenge as a businessman is to find your niche and to target your customers very carefully. If you fail, you can't blame the hobbyist that was giving away his time/service for free.

Do you think Coke or Nike will turn to a hobbyist with a Canon Rebel for their next promotion?

 

[brucelee82]

Admittedly I've not read the entire thread, just skimmed over the top but I have to ask; am I missing something here? All of the Civil War reenactments I've ever known about were wide open where ANYONE could come up and photograph, I even text msgd. a good friend of mine who does these things yearly all over the place and he said the same thing: wide open. So why are you having to granted permission to shoot this when it's open the public and in wide view of the public? Is there an admission? If not, it's free reign to get all the pictures you want. Even if there is an admission, they are YOUR photos that you retain all rights to unless a signed contract says otherwise. Ditch the photoclub and go do your thing!

 

[NickRummy]

I'm curious to see what photos you come up with if you go. I'm not far from Hale Farm at all so it would be cool to see!

 

[Gaerek]

dude if u want to go, then go. who cares about the industry....some of us are in it for other reasons than $$$$.

What do you do for a living? How would you feel if people did your job for free? That would mean you would either:

a) be out of a job.

b) at the very least, be paid less for your work.

I don't buy that argument.

I work in the interactive advertising business (web dev). Since the beginning of the business I'm in, people have given away web services for free or at least for damn near free. But my company survives charging hundreds of thousands, and often times over a million dollars, per site we work on.

If I'm an auto mechanic, do I get pissed at every guy on the planet that works on his own car or his friends car in his own garage?

If you're a professional photographer who markets your services properly, you should not fear the hobbyist giving away his pictures. If you're targeting the company that has such a tight budget and is so unprofessional as to solicit the services of a hobbyist, you're working under the wrong business model.

Every single service business out there has competition from people giving away their services either for free or damn near free. The challenge as a businessman is to find your niche and to target your customers very carefully. If you fail, you can't blame the hobbyist that was giving away his time/service for free.

Do you think Coke or Nike will turn to a hobbyist with a Canon Rebel for their next promotion?

The funny thing is, I mostly agree with you. What I said was a bit of hyperbole, simply because I was upset with the attitude described in an earlier post. And later on, I retracted a lot of what I said (in a later post, of course) saying that even I would probably take this job for free.

I'll admit, I wasn't thinking straight when I wrote the part you quoted. It was early, and I hadn't had my coffee yet. But the important part was after that. The poster I had originally quoted made it sound like it was greedy to take money for photographs. That would be like telling me it's greedy of me to go to work 40 hours a week and take a paycheck for it.

There will always be a photographer willing to work for free, and nothing will change that. Given the right conditions, I would do it also, simply for the experience, exposure, and portfolio additions. Bitter, if the terms seem fair to you (ie. You get good credit, you keep ALL rights to ALL your work, etc) do it. The experience you get could be worth more than what you could have earned.

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

I am not even going to begin quoting and replying to all this.

I will ask when I email the contact for the Non-Profit Historical Society what the usage agreement is about, and if cameras are not permitted for the paying visitors. Also, at this point I couldn't even consider asking for money for my services, considering I have crappy (slow/soft) zoom lenses, am a beginner, and don't do people shots. I saw this as an opportunity to do something I would never have thought of doing before. I thought of this as a challenge.

At this point, I don't know why it was hard for the club to get this "opportunity", why there is this "copyright holder" agreement, which is yet to be final. I do know that somebody has taken a lot of time to get this to happen, and there must have been some kind of issues if this is being finalized a few days before the event.

From the little info that I have gleened, we are getting some sort of priviledge that the "visitors" don't get. We are being given wristband "photographer" ID's. Maybe this is operated differently than all of your (generalized to all posters) experiences. I don't know. I will find out though.

The little info given, this agreement seems pretty loose, and fair to me.
I can use my images however I want, but I must credit the location and WRHS. If I publish, for profit, an image, I have to get written permission. The word was permission, not licensing. Not having an agreement in hand I can't say for sure, but it sounds to me that maybe they want to control how and where anything from the WRHS is viewed, and in what light. But I am only guessing, and so are most of you.

Again, being a beginner I am not concerned with given them any/all of my images (pre-pp). Odds are, I won't be taking that one shot that will make me a famous millionaire photographer, will I? Odds are I won't even get a shot that would be used for any sort of marketing purposes, but if I do, you all will be the first to know. What do I get out of it? Bragging rights. I am a long way from even thinking about changing carreers. I will NEVER be wedding photographer. I will never be a portrait "artist", so those of you who feel my not getting paid to do this is "hurting the industry", give me a break.

You want to talk about an industry that has been destroyed? Let's talk about my career field. Maybe you'll learn why I am bitter.

 

[c.cloudwalker]

Are you a jeweler? I know it is your screen name but a lot of those names don't necessarily mean much.

Tell us about your career field. I'm always interested in hearing people's stories. Rarely heard a story that didn't teach me something and I'm always up for learning.

Start an Off Topic thread.

 

[Gaerek]

The main thing that bothers me is this right here.

I can use my images however I want, but I must credit the location and WRHS. If I publish, for profit, an image, I have to get written permission. The word was permission, not licensing. Not having an agreement in hand I can't say for sure, but it sounds to me that maybe they want to control how and where anything from the WRHS is viewed, and in what light. But I am only guessing, and so are most of you.

I know you said that you are only guessing, but as has been said, as soon as you click that shutter, that is YOUR photo. They should credit you, not the other way around. What you decide to do with it is up to you. For them to say you need permission from them to use it, I would think, is unacceptable. But then again, if that's how the contract is written up, then that just might have to be the way it is.

Again, being a beginner I am not concerned with given them any/all of my images (pre-pp). Odds are, I won't be taking that one shot that will make me a famous millionaire photographer, will I? Odds are I won't even get a shot that would be used for any sort of marketing purposes, but if I do, you all will be the first to know.

You never know. Probably not, but they are your photos. I posted a photo on a local photo contest once without reading the agreement. After I posted, I read it. Basically, I just gave them rights to use my photo for anything they desire. Yes, the photo still belongs to me, but (it was sponsored by a store) if they wanted to blow it up to poster size and display my shot in their window for publicity, they could do so without my consent or credit given to me. I never sent them a photo again, and warned others away. This actually happened to a friend of mine after I warned her about it. She insisted they would never do that. She regretted ever submitting her photo.

The big thing here is, people just want to make sure that you're protected. I know if I were in your shoes, and did that event, and 3 months later I saw one of my photos, uncredited, and without my consent posted on the front page of their website, I'd be pretty upset. It shows that the photo actually had value to them, but you got nothing (not even credit) in return. This isn't about money, it's about making sure credit is given where it's deserved. If you don't care about credit, or who uses your photos, well, then whatever terms are drawn up won't matter in the end anyway. You are a talented photographer. I really like a lot of your stuff. You even have a photo nominated for photo of the month if I'm not mistaken. It'd be a shame for such talent to go uncredited.

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

You do understand, by credit, I mean, after MY NAME, I give the location/organization.

The big thing here is, people just want to make sure that you're protected.

And for some reason, I think a photography club, that has been around for over 60 years, and has many professional and respected photographers in it, would be looking out for it's members. David Busch, the guy that writes many photography for dummies books...is in the club.


I appreciate your kind words too, but I am not at the point that "I" am worried about the issue you put forth. Maybe this is the problem...I work as a wholesale jewelery designer/repair/mfg. I never get credit directly. I doubt any of the retailers that I do work for ever say my name to their customers. That's just how it is.

I no dummie either, just because I am not concerned about this. I had to fight a conflict of interest charge and my boss trying to claim that he had the rights to a line of jewlery I designed and manufactured at home. I fought, fought hard, and won. I wouldn't enter a contest that claims rights to my images either. Letting a non-profit historical society..meh, isn't it like a donation? Especially if I know that going in? I have a meeting tomorrow, so I will find out more about this for you folks. It's competition night. Wish me luck.

 

[c.cloudwalker]

I work as a wholesale jewelery designer/repair/mfg. I never get credit directly. I doubt any of the retailers that I do work for ever say my name to their customers. That's just how it is.

Probably won't make you feel any better but it's worth a try. I once had a friend who taught me that in french there are two words for jeweler. One is for for people who make the cheaper kind of jewelry and the other is for people, like her, who make the million dollar type.

When I met her there were millions of dollars worth of gems going across her little work bench every week; 90% of what she worked on ended up in the middle east in the hands of rich arabs with the (according to me) gaudiest taste. I'm sure you'll understand that I never actually saw any of those pieces but I saw the photos (photo is how we met).

She never got credit for that work. The way she put it to me is that those people could not care less who had done the work, they just wanted their ostentatious stones. Only the top designers ever got credit.

It reminded me of photography.

 

[Gaerek]

You do understand, by credit, I mean, after MY NAME, I give the location/organization.

I understood what you meant. However, if you aren't being paid for your work, I can't see how this organization has any right telling you what you must do with your own photos.

And for some reason, I think a photography club, that has been around for over 60 years, and has many professional and respected photographers in it, would be looking out for it's members. David Busch, the guy that writes many photography for dummies books...is in the club.

I see what you mean. I think you ought to trust them more than me. I know very little about the legal issues surrounding photography, but what I do know is that your photos are your photos until you make the decision for them to become someone elses. Until you make that decision, you can do what you please with them. However, I suppose if you go into the shoot with a contract that says differently, you have probably just made your decision before pressing the shutter even once.

I appreciate your kind words too, but I am not at the point that "I" am worried about the issue you put forth. Maybe this is the problem...I work as a wholesale jewelery designer/repair/mfg. I never get credit directly. I doubt any of the retailers that I do work for ever say my name to their customers. That's just how it is.

I no dummie either, just because I am not concerned about this. I had to fight a conflict of interest charge and my boss trying to claim that he had the rights to a line of jewlery I designed and manufactured at home. I fought, fought hard, and won. I wouldn't enter a contest that claims rights to my images either. Letting a non-profit historical society..meh, isn't it like a donation? Especially if I know that going in?

If you aren't concerned about it, then I'm not concerned about it for you. Like I said, they are your photos to do with as you please, and as long as you get out of this with what you want to get out of it, then nothing else matters.

I know about the whole taking credit (or in your case, rights to a line of jewelry) thing. I worked on a project for 3 months at work, almost by myself. I didn't expect to get any credit or anything for it, afterall, it was just work I was doing. I found out later that my manager took credit for the project and got a $5000 bonus for the project I did. I didn't expect to get anything out of it, but I couldn't let it go. I spoke with his boss, and showed him my project notes as proof. He had to repay the money to the company, and was told not to return to work the next day.

I have a meeting tomorrow, so I will find out more about this for you folks. It's competition night. Wish me luck.

Good luck!

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

*grrrr*
Quite angry with myself.
I have a lot going on right now, and had to take an exciting phone call as I was leaving for the Competition tonight.

I forgot my prints.

DOH!

So I left the meeting.

I'll find out more info on this whole riggamarole tomorrow.

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

 

[c.cloudwalker]

Love the first one. This portrait is beautiful.

Second one doesn't do much for me but I can't wait to see more.