Paid for edited, received unedited, what now? :)

[carlorizzante]

Hello!
I’m fairly new here, not much of a photographer myself but I’ve been working as art director on a variety of projects, from 2003, between Italy and Scandinavia.

I would like to gather feedback on an issue my team had with a photographer we hired for a photoshoot.

To keep it at its simplest form, the photographer asked for a 50% increase on their fee citing editing costs, which we paid upfront. But then, they refused to do any editing, and instead, delivered us unedited PSD files.

This is despite his admission that the deal was for edited photos: “Keep mind that with the 100 photos deal for the 12.000,- [DKK] was with only the slightest of editing and the work with the background. That was the deal that we made…”

And we would not ask anything more. But, also, we would like to get what we paid for.

(Potential spammy link removed)

So, now, we would also like to understand what generally is a photographer perspective in this? What would you suggest we do, or should have done?

And to reassure you, we worked with a multitude of photographers in the past, and never had any issue. This is a new situation for us.

Thanks for any advice you’d like to share!

Respectfully,
Carlo / Sixth Sense

 

[smoke665]

Have you opened the PSD files to determine if any editing is contained.

Don't pretend to know the law there, but here, if you have a written contract which specifies the scope of work to be performed, then you can take them to court to resolve the issue. If there is no written contract, or the scope of work is vague,then you're pretty much out the money.

 

[cgw]

Seems to be a performance issue that the contract(assuming there is a signed, written one)didn't specify. That leaves room for all kinds of expectation mismatches. Though you claim experience in the business, I'm a little surprised this is suddenly a problem.
But I'm not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV...

 

[carlorizzante]

Thank you for answering. And you are right, I wanted an unbiased opinion, so I left out much of the details. We of course have the negotiation with the photographer in writing. Including the request for an additional fee for the editing costs (which again, we paid upfront).

I won't mind do the editing myself. But, how often do you deliver unedited photos? Or renegotiate the editing afterward?

That has never happened to me before. But, again, it is not my opinion that I am looking for

Here goes my best guess. My suspicion is that the photographer realized that editing the photos would have costed them more than what they asked, even with the 50% increase. And therefore refused to provide editing. The lightning and skin tones are generally great. But there is plenty of background that has to be worked out.

You can find our test run on Instagram as @ss_studio54 to get an idea of the quality of the photos (generally good), and the amount of background to be work out.

Again, I appreciate very much your honest feedback, thank you for that.

 

[bulldurham]

Not sure how business is done in Denmark, but I would never pay up front for editing. I would have to see the work, first. Also, because there are likely no specifics as to what or how much constitutes the edit, contract or not, the burden of proof is on you. My guess is your attorney fees would far exceed the recovery. Chalk it up to a lesson in how to write a performance contract.

 

[carlorizzante]

Not sure how business is done in Denmark, but I would never pay up front for editing. I would have to see the work, first. Also, because there are likely no specifics as to what or how much constitutes the edit, contract or not, the burden of proof is on you. My guess is your attorney fees would far exceed the recovery. Chalk it up to a lesson in how to write a performance contract.

Thanks for your feedback, and yes, you would be right.

We have everything in writing, though, so for example, back in March, the photographer wrote us this: “Keep mind that with the 100 photos deal for the 12.000,- (DKK) was with only the slightest of editing and the work with the background. That was the deal that we made…”

So, we do have a claim.

We offered them to do the editing once more on July 22, with a deadline for August 22.

Within 20 minutes, they wrote us back a neat refusal. I also have to say, that we have rarely seen such a level of entitlement from a person. But... let's stay on the business side.

We decided to charge them for the editing cost as estimated by a professional editing company in the city. That's a pretty substantial bill, approved by our legal representatives.

 

[bulldurham]

Thanks for your feedback, and yes, you would be right.

We have everything in writing, though, so for example, back in March, the photographer wrote us this: “Keep mind that with the 100 photos deal for the 12.000,- (DKK) was with only the slightest of editing and the work with the background. That was the deal that we made…”

So, we do have a claim.

We offered them to do the editing once more on July 22, with a deadline for August 22.

Within 20 minutes, they wrote us back a neat refusal. I also have to say, that we have rarely seen such a level of entitlement from a person. But... let's stay on the business side.

We decided to charge them for the editing cost as estimated by a professional editing company in the city. That's a pretty substantial bill, approved by our legal representatives.

I would drop the suit, lick my wounds and learn from this. Your legal representatives will make more than you will. 68.57 Krone per edit is far less than I would charge for professional editing, even at a "simple" level which never turns out to be "only the slightest of editing." Next time pay more for a better photographer and if the editing is indeed the slightest need, do it yourself and save some Krone.

 

[smoke665]

We have everything in writing, though, so for example, back in March, the photographer wrote us this: “Keep mind that with the 100 photos deal for the 12.000,- (DKK) was with only the slightest of editing and the work with the background. That was the deal that we made…”

Sorry but that's about as vague of a statement as you can get. Who determines what "slightest" means? The bar is so low, that you'll have a hard time proving he didn't provide what was stated. As to attorneys I have never met one yet, that said they can't win a case.

We decided to charge them for the editing cost as estimated by a professional editing company in the city. That's a pretty substantial bill, approved by our legal representatives.

12,000 DKK translates to $1740.53. I would expect the minimum retainer for the case here to be $3k US, more if it drags on. Not sure if Denmark has a small claims court that you could go to without an attorney, but in either case, winning in court is half the battle. You have to collect on a judgement, that means more legal expense to enforce, and if he doesn't have any assets to collect on, your out more than you'll get back.

As per the above, I'd eat the cost, and next time, be more specific in your scope of work. Better yet, hire your attorney to write the contract.

 

[Woolsocks]

Yes.

You could have broken down your task into fractions. Have the editor do one third of the job then 2 thirds and so on. I would agree to that.

 

[carlorizzante]

Sorry but that's about as vague of a statement as you can get. Who determines what "slightest" means? The bar is so low, that you'll have a hard time proving he didn't provide what was stated. As to attorneys I have never met one yet, that said they can't win a case.


12,000 DKK translates to $1740.53. I would expect the minimum retainer for the case here to be $3k US, more if it drags on. Not sure if Denmark has a small claims court that you could go to without an attorney, but in either case, winning in court is half the battle. You have to collect on a judgement, that means more legal expense to enforce, and if he doesn't have any assets to collect on, your out more than you'll get back.

As per the above, I'd eat the cost, and next time, be more specific in your scope of work. Better yet, hire your attorney to write the contract.

Sure, I would argue though that the amount is irrelevant. It was agreed upon, we paid upfront, and that is. Also you gotta add 25% of VAT on top.

We are member of the Danish Journalist Union, which includes legal support of various kind, including copyright, contract negotiation, and missed payment. The photographer is a member, too, so we'll see how that goes

I omitted the entire saga with the photographer. They breached other parts of our agreement, for example using unauthorized photos on their social media. But that's out of scope here. I mentioned it to say that we already entered a litigation with them. The missing editing is just one part.

And again, thank you for sharing your opinion, it helps us to put all things in a better perspective.

 

[smoke665]

omitted the entire saga with the photographer. They breached other parts of our agreement,

Seems like there's been a lot of "piecemealing" information throughout this post. It appears you weren't asking for advice on proceeding, because you had already made a decision on direction. Maybe you need to fully explore your "other" options before coming here with only part of the story.

 

[SquarePeg]

I do not do a lot of paid photography work so take this for what it is worth... I have done several photo shoots for HS seniors and a couple of product shoots for a local business as well as numerous portrait sessions for friends and family. I would not ever deliver unedited photos. In fact when asked to provide the raw files I always refuse. I do not negotiate a separate price for edited vs unedited. Any price I negotiate includes any necessary editing as I would always want to deliver my best work.

The only exception to this would be if I delivered edited photos that were up to my standards but the client requested additional edits such as cosmetic changes to appearance in a portrait (sculpting) or adding/removing family members in a group shot, head swapping etc.

Once I had someone show up in a very wrinkled sweater for a company group photo and individual headshots. I pointed out this issue before we started shooting. They said they didn't care but it looked awful in all the photos. I edited 2 of the group photos to remove/smooth the wrinkles and then told them I would do one of the head shots of her choosing for free but any others would be an additional charge.

You need to be flexible as a photographer but also, as a client, you need to have realistic expectations.

 

[Woolsocks]

I do not do a lot of paid photography work so take this for what it is worth... I have done several photo shoots for HS seniors and a couple of product shoots for a local business as well as numerous portrait sessions for friends and family. I would not ever deliver unedited photos. In fact when asked to provide the raw files I always refuse. I do not negotiate a separate price for edited vs unedited. Any price I negotiate includes any necessary editing as I would always want to deliver my best work.

The only exception to this would be if I delivered edited photos that were up to my standards but the client requested additional edits such as cosmetic changes to appearance in a portrait (sculpting) or adding/removing family members in a group shot, head swapping etc.

Once I had someone show up in a very wrinkled sweater for a company group photo and individual headshots. I pointed out this issue before we started shooting. They said they didn't care but it looked awful in all the photos. I edited 2 of the group photos to remove/smooth the wrinkles and then told them I would do one of the head shots of her choosing for free but any others would be an additional charge.

You need to be flexible as a photographer but also, as a client, you need to have realistic expectations.

Some are just plain rude. They agree to quote from me. Then after it's done. They want to add more. And more. All at a reduced rate. Same project. Then they start talking about people they know. Like: " I know people in key positions" blah blah.

 

[Woolsocks]

Hello!
I’m fairly new here, not much of a photographer myself but I’ve been working as art director on a variety of projects, from 2003, between Italy and Scandinavia.

I would like to gather feedback on an issue my team had with a photographer we hired for a photoshoot.

To keep it at its simplest form, the photographer asked for a 50% increase on their fee citing editing costs, which we paid upfront. But then, they refused to do any editing, and instead, delivered us unedited PSD files.

This is despite his admission that the deal was for edited photos: “Keep mind that with the 100 photos deal for the 12.000,- [DKK] was with only the slightest of editing and the work with the background. That was the deal that we made…”

And we would not ask anything more. But, also, we would like to get what we paid for.

(Potential spammy link removed)

So, now, we would also like to understand what generally is a photographer perspective in this? What would you suggest we do, or should have done?

And to reassure you, we worked with a multitude of photographers in the past, and never had any issue. This is a new situation for us.

Thanks for any advice you’d like to share!

Respectfully,
Carlo / Sixth Sense

Simple. You shouldn't work with a photographer but a dedicated editor.