Question about shooting in manual mode

[Babs]

I was at a baby sensory room with my son and a friend today and took my camera as I suspected (correctly) I could get some good shots there. However, with the children moving all over the place and the continually changing lights, I just couldn't get the hang of shooting manual and had to resort to P mode instead.

What is the best way to approach such a setting (i.e. continually moving subjects and continually varying lighting) and shooting in M?

I suspect this is something which comes with experience and eventually you know instinctively what settings the camera should be on for the shot you want. In which case, it's probably way off my current level of knowledge and experience.

But for future visits, how best can I try and approach manual shooting in such an environment?

 

[Overread]

Learn to use the semi auto modes (or semi manual modes ) - Aperture priority and Shutter priority are ideal modes for this kind of situation where you have fast moving subjects shifting through changing lighting conditions.
In these modes you control two settings - the aperture or shutter and the ISO and the camera then balances the other 3rd setting automatically to the meter reading - its the same as doing it in manual mode, but the camera is a lot faster and doesn't miss a beat when the light changes.

That is the method I would approach and its also interesting to note that outside of studio photography (where photographers are most often using flash dominated lighting and thus controlling all variables) aperture priority mode is one of the most popular modes generally used.

Edit:: Your other option is to use flash dominant lighting - that is to have manually set settings which would result in a black shot (ie underexposure) with the ambient light - and then to use control over flash to add in the missing light needed to make the exposure. That would let you shoot with generally static manual settings whilst letting the flash output balance as needed with the change in lighting. This is more tricky in some ways since good flash control is an art in itself and its also open to a lot more variation in how you approach it (one flash on the camera using auto flash settings would be ideal in the case you explain but you could also shift to multiple flashes; angles etc....).

 

[Babs]

Thanks so much for that, Overread.

Aperture and Shutter priority mode certainly sound more manageable for me at the moment than using the flash to control the light. Flash (and lighting) is something I haven't tackled as yet, whereas I have had some success with aperture priority mode already (though I haven't played with shutter priority mode as yet, though).

I'll read up on both before my next visit. Thanks!

 

[clanthar]

I gotta wonder why you tried to use the camera in manual in the first place.

If you are shooting in manual then the next logical question is; what kind of external light meter are you using? If you were using the meter built into the camera then using manual mode makes no sense. I'm assuming here and forgive me if I'm wrong. My assumption is that you were still relying on the camera's meter to determine the exposure.

Overread would be correct then to suggest either aperture or shutter priority as the best way to use the camera. Either of those options are faster and more precise than manual and they still give you plenty of opportunity to moderate the exposure via the camera's exposure compensation control. (If you need to modify the exposure more than 2 stops from the reflected meter reading then manual becomes an option. This would be unusual).

I teach photo (undergraduate) and constantly encounter students trying to use their cameras in manual mode while relying on the camera's internal meter to set the exposure. I ask them if they set the shutter and aperture to zero the camera's meter and they invariably say yes. So then why not let the camera do that job itself? I ask.

The camera's internal meter reads reflected light. Reading reflected light is error prone. An external meter can be used to read incident light. Reading incident light is error proof. Therein lies the justification for using a camera in manual mode. Otherwise use shutter or aperture priority.

Take Care,
Joe

 

[bazooka]

Not to thread-jack, but Joe, for me, manual is easier to use than Aperture or Shutter priority. When I approach a situation, I have an aperture and shutter speed in my head already based on what I want the shot to look like. I plug those in and if the ISO can be adjusted reasonably to fit, then I'm golden. If not, I'll start compromising either shutter speed or aperture, or usually both, depending on the situation. I don't believe my A/T modes will auto-adjust ISO so I would end up having to make changes anyway.

The reason the semi-auto modes frustrate me the most is the shutter speed or aperture are constantly changing depending on what I have my camera pointed at. If I want to meter for the sky, in manual, I just point it at the sky and set it. In semi, I have to point at the sky, see what the setting is, recompose, then add compensation based on how much the meter moves when I recompose. In manual, I set it and forget it (assuming the light condition isn't constantly changing as in the above scenario, in which case, I would suggest semi modes as OR did).

I assume I'm missing something because you're teaching the subject and I've not been doing this long, but it's comfortable and fast for me, whereas the semi modes seem slow and clunky, assuming the light isn't changing. Perhaps you can convert me.

 

[Big Mike]

There is no difference between a shot taken in manual, auto or the priority modes...as long as the three exposure settings are the same.
To put it another way...F8, 1/125 & ISO 100 will give you the same photo in manual, auto or a priority mode.

It's just a matter of how you get to those setting...and that's largely personal preference.

I tend to agree with Joe. Unless you have a specific reason (or preference) to shoot in manual...why do it? It's not inherently better...it's just a different way of arriving at the photo that you want

 

[burgo]

There are times when manual is useful. But aperture priority is a good for most situations. It really comes down to understanding how your camera works and what the settings mean. When you have that under your belt you should find yourself not being scared of which mode you use.

 

[Babs]

Thanks guys

I've been using manual as a way to learn my way around the camera and to learn the interactions between aperture, exposure and ISO. But I fully appreciate there are times to use it and times when another mode is better.

I'm going again in a couple of weeks and then again a bit after that, so I'll maybe try aperture priority one week and shutter priority the next. Use it as a learning experience!

Thanks for indulging a curious newbie

 

[Overread]

Generally speaking I use shutter priority when I want to force a certain shutter speed - most times for creative purposes. For example with propeller planes I'll try to force the shutter to under 1/60sec whilst panning to get the blur in the propellers - however if I were shooting a jet aircraft I would slip into aperture priority, where I just want the shutter to go as fast as possible on my set aperture (of course I still have to keep an eye on the shutter speed to make sure that it is fast enough otherwise I have to either settle for a wider aperture and/or higher ISO).

So in your example aperture priority is the more ideal rather than trying to get a single fixed shutter speed.

 

[clanthar]

Hi Bazooka,

Back when I got started doing this changing ISO meant switching backs or camera bodies -- typically not as simple as it is today.

Given that it's a push button job now to switch ISO, let's not forget that each notch that ISO goes up the image degrades no matter what the other conditions. Whereas in many shooting situations (still life or landscape or cityscape for example) once a fast enough shutter speed is reached to prevent camera shake, additional changes in shutter speed have no real effect on the photo. Changing f/stop varies DOF.

Therefore: I always want the best possible photo quality and so I will begin with the lowest possible ISO. I will not alter that ISO unless the lighting condition requires me to do so. With the ISO now set I will choose whichever is more critical for the conditions at hand -- f/stop (DOF) or shutter speed (motion) and let the camera meter do it's job and set the other. I will of course monitor the camera's choice and intervene if necessary.

Let's assume a cityscape. I set the ISO for best quality. I survey the scene and since nothing is moving I default to DOF as a first priority. I select aperture priority mode and as long as the shutter speed is high enough (any choice of a dozen different speeds making no difference in the final photo), I'm good to go.

Let's assume a sports action photo. I set the ISO for best quality. I survey the scene and since action is critical I default to motion control as a first priority. I select shutter priority mode and as long as the f/stop is in a range of f/4 plus I'm good to go.

By altering ISO to control exposure in manual mode you compromise best quality when that may not be necessary.

Take Care,
Joe

Manual mode? Yep, when I really want the best possible photo I reach in the camera bag and take out my hand light meter. I take an incident meter reading for the shot and ignore the camera's built it meter which by the very nature of how it's designed to work, doesn't work very well.

 

[GooniesNeverSayDie11]

Shutter priority and Aperture priority are better ways to learn your way around the camera. Haphazard shooting in manual just frustrates you and makes you miss a bunch of shots. In Av and Tv mode, you don't have to worry about exposure because the camera will still do what it needs to do in order to get a properly exposed shot, but you can focus more on seeing and understanding how changes in the shutter speed or Aperture effect the shot style. Noone ever mentions this, but there is some logic in how the settings are arranged on the camera dial. Notice that it starts at full auto and goes through semi-auto and into full manual? Think of this as the path you should take in your learning process. Diving head first into manual just wastes some good fun learning you could be doing in the field by you chimping and ripping your hair out in full manual.

 

[Babs]

Just to update and say thanks everyone for the advice. Was back at the sensory room today and shot in shutter priority mode and have come away with some great photos! Thanks for all the help


ETA - The other thing which made a huge difference was the lens. I was getting some great shots using my 50mm prime while my friend was getting rubbish shooting on his Canon 450d with the kit lens. We swapped lenses and I couldn't believe the difference! The 50mm 1.8 was consistently shooting clearer, faster, brighter shots than his lens. I quickly sulked and swapped back

 

[traylorc]

Shutter priority and Aperture priority are better ways to learn your way around the camera. Haphazard shooting in manual just frustrates you and makes you miss a bunch of shots. In Av and Tv mode, you don't have to worry about exposure because the camera will still do what it needs to do in order to get a properly exposed shot, but you can focus more on seeing and understanding how changes in the shutter speed or Aperture effect the shot style. Noone ever mentions this, but there is some logic in how the settings are arranged on the camera dial. Notice that it starts at full auto and goes through semi-auto and into full manual? Think of this as the path you should take in your learning process. Diving head first into manual just wastes some good fun learning you could be doing in the field by you chimping and ripping your hair out in full manual.

You have described my first few weeks with my D90 perfectly...I jumped into manual and it was a frustrating process. I have adapted, and I am primarily using Aperture and Shutter and this allows me to see the changes in aperture and shutter speed impact my pictures. During my recent trip to Disney Land, was able to better diagnose some of the problems I was having with certain pics.

I have to admit, I was feeling a little guilty using my new approach. There was a part of me that was thinking that if I wasn't using manual mode, I wasn't really using my camera. Or if I am not using manual mode I won't gain the experience that some of the other forum members obviously have.

 

[bazooka]

Nah, that's a load of crap. If you are happy with your images and are having fun, then you are using your camera well. There is no reason to feel like you need to shoot in any specific mode just because it's more challenging. These cameras are smart and fast. If the images are coming out good for you, then you're doing fine.

I have specific reasons I choose to shoot in manual all the time. Sure, my first few weeks were pretty bad and I got a lot of bad exposures and plenty of motion blur. I still occassionally have these issues, no doubt. But once you get used to it, it becomes second nature, and I gain all the benefits.

I use a tripod probably 80% of the time and do mostly landscape stuff, so shutter speed oftentimes doesn't matter. The primary benefit I have found using manual is that, assuming the light source doesn't change, my exposure doesn't change unless I tell it to. If you use a semi-auto mode, you're going to get a much different exposure if you point the camera toward black pavement, clouds, blue sky, someones face, etc.... In manual, you set your exposure and it will never change unless you change it. So my exposures are always consistent. I just chimp the histogram and if it looks good, I leave it set for that scene. For the kind of shooting I do, this works well for me. However, if I were in quickly changing light conditions like the OP, then I wouldn't hesitate to switch to semi. It's impractical to be metering and changing exposure after every shot.

 

[sobolik]

I was at a baby sensory room with my son and a friend today and took my camera as I suspected (correctly) I could get some good shots there. However, with the children moving all over the place and the continually changing lights, I just couldn't get the hang of shooting manual and had to resort to P mode instead.

What is the best way to approach such a setting (i.e. continually moving subjects and continually varying lighting) and shooting in M?

I suspect this is something which comes with experience and eventually you know instinctively what settings the camera should be on for the shot you want. In which case, it's probably way off my current level of knowledge and experience.

But for future visits, how best can I try and approach manual shooting in such an environment?

Forget obsessing over the settings details and think in terms of philosophy. Here is a suggested philosophy:


Shoot in auto mode unless you care.

If you care about the depth of field then shoot in aperture priority mode (or match the scene mode like on point and shoots)

If you care about blur them shoot in shutter speed priority mode. (or match the scene mode like on point and shoots)

If none of the 3 modes above will do the trick for what you want to accomplish then shoot in manual mode.

====

As your experience and knowledge advances the number of times you care increases. And the ability to select the proper course to follow is more accurate. ie. selecting the correct settings.