Question on the Zone System

[Kisatchie]

I had it pointed out to me that there is a BIG error in the Zone System.

A gentleman on another forum said that if zone V is 18% reflectance, then zone VI is 36% reflectance. Zone VII is 72% reflectance, which leads to an impossible zone VIII reflectance of 144%. Isn't zone VIII supposed to have slight texture visible?

Anyone know how the zone system can be legitimate if this is true?

 

[compur]

The gentleman on the other forum is confused. There are simply 11 zones from pure white to pure black.

 

[480sparky]

Reflectance ≠ 'stops'.

 

[Kisatchie]

Reflectance ≠ 'stops'.

Pardon my ignorance, but why is that?

 

[Kisatchie]

The gentleman on the other forum is confused. There are simply 11 zones from pure white to pure black.

But according to the gentleman, zone VIII should be pure white... I'm confused.

 

[480sparky]

Reflectance ≠ 'stops'.

Pardon my ignorance, but why is that?

Different logarithmic scales.

 

[Kisatchie]

Oh brother... it's been over 50 years since I had logarithmic scales in Algebra class LOL. I think I'm out of my league here...

Hmm... a superior
Great Ape you ain't...

 

[maris]

The terminology in the Zone System is critical in helping to wade through the complexities.

The word ZONE refers only to camera exposure.
EXPOSURE ZONES I, II, III, IV, ..... , VIII, IX, X, and beyond, go up in 1 stop increments, exactly.

A given film with a given development, after receiving those Zone exposures will exhibit
NEGATIVE DENSITIES I, II, III, IV, .... , VIII, IX, X, and so on.
The actual densities and the relationship between them depends on the type of film and how it is exposed and developed.

When those negative densities are printed on photographic paper the result is a series of
PRINT VALUES I, II, III, IV, .... , VIII, IX, X, and so on. This series of print values can run from black, through a series of greys, to white, or be all black, all greys, or all white. This depends on the negative densities, the type of photographic paper and how it is exposed and developed.

In common practice a middling exposure, ZONE V, is often (but doesn't have to be) the reciprocal of the film ISO value multiplied by 10 and is expressed in the units of lux.seconds. For example a middling exposure on a 400 ISO film is 0.025 lux.seconds.

Given a middling exposure, a conventional film, and standard development a ZONE V exposure usually delivers a NEGATIVE DENSITY V corresponding to an optical density of 0.6 or thereabouts.

Typically, but not always, NEGATIVE DENSITY V is printed out on photographic paper to yield
PRINT VALUE V a middle grey tone which is, according to surveys of print viewers, about 18% reflectance.

All the other EXPOSURE ZONES, not just ZONE V, have their corresponding NEGATIVE DENSITIES, and PRINT VALUES.

Many, but not all, Zone System users seek a full scale print where:
PRINT VALUE II is just lighter than black
PRINT VALUE V is a middle grey and
PRINT VALUE VIII is just darker than white.

All this is achieved by controlled film exposure, controlled development, and controlled printing.
Learning how to do all this reliably and repeatably so that the final print is the print you visualised in the beginning is what the Zone System offers.

 

[Kisatchie]

The terminology in the Zone System is critical in helping to wade through the complexities.

The word ZONE refers only to camera exposure.
EXPOSURE ZONES I, II, III, IV, ..... , VIII, IX, X, and beyond, go up in 1 stop increments, exactly.

A given film with a given development, after receiving those Zone exposures will exhibit
NEGATIVE DENSITIES I, II, III, IV, .... , VIII, IX, X, and so on.
The actual densities and the relationship between them depends on the type of film and how it is exposed and developed....

Thank you for the response. That's exactly what I learned decades ago.

I wish I had a darkroom, but those days are long gone. I get my negatives from Dwayne's Photo Lab in the US now. They're consistently well processed. Some day I'm going to pick out a number of my favorite negatives and get 8x10 prints made and framed. That should fill up all my wall space LOL.

Nowadays, when I shoot 35mm B&W film, I use a modified zone system. I meter part of the scene that I want to be zone V with a 1 degree Pentax Spotmeter V. Then I expose at the recommended setting and let all the other zonal values fall where they may. It isn't perfect, but I get consistently excellent negatives.

 

[compur]

But according to the gentleman, zone VIII should be pure white... I'm confused.

The gentleman is mistaken. Zone X (10) is pure white.

See:
Zone System - Wikipedia

 

[webestang64]

 

[nokk]

found this chart which shows zones and reflectance. looks like it tops out at 100%.

https://www.tonallystopaccurate.com/TechnicalPage.html

 

[Kisatchie]

found this chart which shows zones and reflectance. looks like it tops out at 100%.

https://www.tonallystopaccurate.com/TechnicalPage.html

Thanks for the chart. I see it shows 90% reflectance (tonal %) for zone VIII, which makes sense if Zone VIII shows slight texture. That must be where the book "The Zone System for 35mm Photographers" shows zone VIII to reflect 90% (page 34 - under CONTRAST AND LIGHT INTENSITY heading.)

 

[maris]

found this chart which shows zones and reflectance. looks like it tops out at 100%.

https://www.tonallystopaccurate.com/TechnicalPage.html

Thanks for the chart. I see it shows 90% reflectance (tonal %) for zone VIII, which makes sense if Zone VIII shows slight texture. That must be where the book "The Zone System for 35mm Photographers" shows zone VIII to reflect 90% (page 34 - under CONTRAST AND LIGHT INTENSITY heading.)

Beware of the chart. It implies that there is a pre-existing connection between a given camera exposure and a final print value. There isn't. A ZONE V exposure, for example, could be used to deliver a print value that is absolute black, absolute white, or anything in between. What makes the connection between an exposure zone and a print value is how the exposed film is developed and how the developed film is printed. The Zone System is the method by which all these variables are controlled to produce a desired result.

 

[daveo228i]

The zone system was developed by Ansel Adams. He was a great photographer, but a master wizard in the darkroom. His prints are a reflection of his mastery at printing. Grab one his books on the zone system.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro