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RAW vs JPEG - Freedom Or Limiting

You can have the biggest sensor, while JPEGS that are only 8 bit vs the 12 -14 bits in a RAW, but the paintbrush doesn't make the painting, and the best paints in the world, will never make me a better artist. I'll admit that better tools make a craftsman more able to work with their talent level, but shooting RAW isn't the end, it's just a means.
There you said it, better tools make the artist more able. Raw isn't the end. Of course it's not, it's a better tool. The arts are a physical expression. It's the expression that matters. The tools can either support the expression -- good tools -- or tarnish it -- poor tools. If you look at the tools artists use you'll find they care to use the best tools. Why? Because they care about the work, the expression. And they don't want their expression tarnished by poor tools. So painters use the best brushes and the best paints. A guitarist doesn't buy a guitar from Walmart for a few hundred dollars they spend thousands to have a custom guitar made just for them. Why? Because they care about the work and poor tools tarnish their work. It's the work in the end that matters, but because it matters the artist doesn't want the work presented poorly so they practice their craft and use only the best tools. You'll find that behavior is universal among serious artists.
You can have the headroom, pixels or anything else, with the best and most modern technology, but the results aren't dependent on that. The eye is, the editing, the composition, the exposure. Where the argument of RAW over JPG fails is, JPGs are not so inadequate that they can't produce a comparable image.
That is incorrect. Camera JPEGs can be fair under a limited range of conditions, but the result from a hand processed raw file will be better -- better technical support for the artist's expression. Every artist wants that. They have something to express and they want to present it as best they can.
Shooting a RAW image, doesn't automatically make the image better, or the resulting image better.
Of course not; there's nothing automatic about it. Skill on the part of the artist is a requirement. The artist's skill coupled with the best tools does result in a better image than the automated processing the camera does to generate a JPEG.
How fine, how large, how much latitude, does someone need? and ps when you save that RAW as a JPG, it's 8 bits.
That's thoroughly meaningless. 8 bits is print sufficient. It's not about the fact that a final image is 8 bits it's about what you do to get to that final 8 bit image. The camera image processor is a crude tool that arrives at that final 8 bit destination having made poor and automated choices that tarnish the result whereas the skilled artist arrives at the same 8 bit destination having made better and custom tailored choices that best support the expression.
I can see three potential positions or arguments here. I may be missing something else.
Missing something else? Maybe missing the boat.
One is shoot RAW because you have more data and more control.
Another is, more pixels, bigger sensor is always better. More data. (Which is somewhat like the first)
Yet another is, the lens is the eye of the photo, you can't capture everything without the best lens.

I'm an advocate of the last group. I'm convinced that the lens is more important than the pixels or the bits. You can't correct an inherently, visually flawed image, with more pixels or more latitude. But I admit that's me. I'm sure there are people who have settled on pixels and sensors and other that want control, by shooting RAW.
Or maybe folks who use the best tools across the board save and process raw files and also use the best lenses.
Pick your personal poison obsession? :encouragement:

I don't find that shooting JPGs are a severe limitation.
Shooting camera JPEGs is not a severe limitation, but it is a limitation. Best is best and everything else is less.
 
I wrote earlier that I shoot RAW but, it took me a lot of practice with Lightroom, Printshop etc. to get the most out of my RAW files and, I still have a lot to learn. When you shoots in RAW they have much more control over the final image than when they shoot in jpeg. That is not to say that you can't edit jpegs because you can do a lot with good editing software. RAW just gives you a lot more options and gives you access to producing the absolute best final image.
 
For some people I can see how intentionally limiting oneself COULD boost their creativity or force someone to slow down and take the time to take a more purposeful approach to how they create a photograph, especially if they don't intend on editing. I myself have many times used just a single prime lens for many of my photo sessions, but that's based on personal preference, not an intentional exercise in slowing myself down or boosting creativity through intentional limitation. I think what the author might not be understanding is that their approach won't work for many photographers. For many photographers having those extra lens options and a file format like RAW that allows for a lot more editing capabilities will be the boost in creativity they seek. Even the act of editing is a creative endeavor. The author seems to be overwhelmed by options, but for the vast majority of us, that's just not the case.
I just shot my whole shoot with my 90 V and I do not think it affected my creativity but gave me
More separation but I had to stand back a bit after shooting a bunch with my 55 it is interesting.
 
Where the argument of RAW over JPG fails is, JPGs are not so inadequate that they can't produce a comparable image.
This warrants further exploration and explanation. Of course the camera JPEGs can be good enough to be acceptable for lots of people. They can be good enough to sell in many situations, and that's a good thing, but they are not comparable to final images hand processed from raw files. Why? The reasons are numerous and involve different aspects of the image processing task. One reason that all our cameras share is the engineering necessity to compromise. The engineering teams that design the camera JPEG processors are gifted and do amazing work but nonetheless they work with a gun to their heads and they can't do the impossible. They must at all times consider that the user will decide to press and hold down the shutter release. The camera then is expected to take a rapid fire sequence of photos. To do so the camera should be set to save JPEGs only. And to allow that rapid sequence to run at full speed for as long as possible the JPEG processing has to keep up. To do that the engineers compromise -- they have no choice. There's a lot that has to get done.

A reason this topic is complicated is because all the different engineering teams for all the different brand cameras don't all make the same compromises in the same way and so we get variability one brand and model camera to the next. With that understood let's take a look. One task that has to be accomplished is the demosaicing of the sensor CFA. That's a big job and there are numerous software algorithms available to accomplish it (different strengths/weaknesses and different processing speeds). No camera offers the user a choice of demosaicing algorithms -- you get what's in the camera period no discussion. I have that choice in some of the raw processing apps I use and it can make a difference. Here's a photo from a Fuji X-T2:

not-comparable1.webp

Demosaicing the CFA is a weakness for Fuji and so this doesn't necessarily apply to the same degree for all brand cameras, but they will have their own weaknesses. They all have to struggle with the same issue. In the photo above you see two 100% enlargements of the air conditioner grill and the outer wall. On your left is the Fuji JPEG and on the right is the raw file processed in DXO PL9. Fuji's demosaicing algorithm doesn't extract the same level of fine detail the you get from the PL9 demosaicing. You can't do anything with the Fuji camera settings to get it any better. I've already cranked up the Fuji sharpening -- it's as good as it gets and it's not comparable. Lenses? Yep lenses matter. I have a very nice 75mm Apo Summicron I use on my Fuji cameras. It's a very good lens and I like to see the wonderful fine detail it renders, but I'll never fully see that from a Fuji JPEG.

I can go on with this for pages and pages. Let's do another example. Another task the JPEG processor has to complete is applying lens corrections. Canon has a weakness there. Their in-camera lens corrections suck. Here's a photo from a Canon G7xmkII compact. When I bought the camera I read reviews and a common complaint was that the lens went soft in the corners. It doesn't actually; it's the sucky lens corrections and the reviewers were looking at camera JPEGs.

not-comparable2.webp


Again in the two 100% insets the left one is the camera JPEG and the right one is the raw processed in DXO PL9. I've seen this with a number of Canon's zoom lenses on their DSLRs as well. It's almost like it becomes a whole different lens and camera when you process a raw file and do it right. Again the engineering teams actually do an amazing job given the requirement. What you see in the above example is the difference better tools make.

Which camera brand makes the best JPEGs? In my experience that's Nikon. I haven't seen them all but I've seen far more than most of us here. My years spent in the classroom gave me a unique opportunity to examine and handle a very large sample of what's been available. So let's do one more and look at how bad Nikon JPEGs can be. This is a weakness all the brands share together; noise processing. For this one I just took a photo with a Nikon Z7 and raised the ISO to 6400 -- not sky high for a FF camera these days.

not-comparable3.webp


The three 100% insets are from your left the noise unfiltered then the in-camera noise filtering set to Normal (on High it finds the last little bit of detail left and just mushes it away) and on your right noise filtered in DXO PL9. In the past decade and a half we've made real significant advances in noise processing. Unfortunately it's all very processor intensive and there's no way it can be placed in our cameras without it shutting down the camera's ability to shoot a rapid sequence.

Again I could go on for pages. The above three examples just scratch the surface and those are all things we have no control over whatsoever. None of those things can be altered in camera; at best you can turn the noise filtering off. We haven't even started on the things that we do have some control over. When we get to the picture control items it's good that the cameras give us some options and it's good that those options have been increasing and have gotten better, but compared with what's available in a raw processor they're not comparable -- they're still crude or they're not there. Next time you take a landscape and save a camera JPEG apply sharpening to the foreground and withhold it from the sky. My teacher taught me that it's a very rare photo that doesn't benefit from a corner burn down as a final step. Go to your camera and turn on the apply a vignette option. Some cameras do have it now (Sony) but not many and in those that do it's not very adjustable. In your next landscape saved as a camera JPEG apply a mask and increase the contrast of the clouds in the sky. And so that get's us to the next topic -- editing the JPEGs. Yes, you can do it but not nearly or comparably as well as you can edit a raw file.
 
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Here is a perfect example of when jpeg is the best option. I have an old Nikon D750 that I love. Only down side to this dSLR (imho) is its' buffer. Shooting RAW it can only pull off 9-10 shots before the buffer fills and shooting slows down to a crawl. I set my "user setting #1" to "jpeg Normal" and the color profile to "Flat". This gives me at least 30 shots before it buffers out. Is the quality as good as full RAW? No but, a normal quality jpeg shot is 100% better than no shot at all. If I was shooting my D500 with its' endless buffer then RAW would be my best option. Like most things "it depends"
 
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Of course the camera JPEGs can be good enough to be acceptable for lots of people. They can be good enough to sell in many situations, and that's a good thing, but they are not comparable to final
I dont think anyone disputes that. I predominantly save RAW, unless I need a quick image to post. Here's the thing though - yes I get a better image, but to what end?? Mostly what I shoot is hobby now, they have no significant historical significance, no real commercial significance, and when I'm gone most will likely be thrown out by the kids. Does it really matter at some point if you take every image to the next level? For me I'm finding more enjoyment behind the lens than in front of a monitor.
 
I dont think anyone disputes that.
I put up the post because somebody disputed that.
I predominantly save RAW, unless I need a quick image to post. Here's the thing though - yes I get a better image, but to what end?? Mostly what I shoot is hobby now, they have no significant historical significance, no real commercial significance, and when I'm gone most will likely be thrown out by the kids. Does it really matter at some point if you take every image to the next level? For me I'm finding more enjoyment behind the lens than in front of a monitor.
 
I put up the post because somebody disputed that.
Okay, then we both agree that you can produce a better image from a RAW file, but the question still remains is "why does it matter to you" (read the last part of my post). I'm questioning my own feelings on the subject more and more, just curious on your thoughts.
 
Okay, then we both agree that you can produce a better image from a RAW file, but the question still remains is "why does it matter to you" (read the last part of my post). I'm questioning my own feelings on the subject more and more, just curious on your thoughts.
I really enjoy making photographs and I take pride in doing a good job. I've just started a new project; I'm making picture books for my grandchildren. I understand being a hobbyist and limiting my level of participation. Music had always been important to me and I dabble with playing an instrument. I enjoy it but I also don't pursue it in the way a professional would. My instruments cost a few hundred dollars and I bought them for less than that used. A professional would spend thousands and I can hear the difference. I don't play well enough to justify the better instrument but I still enjoy the activity.
 
People don't seem to be thinking of how their future selves will see their current work.

You shoot a JPG in 2026, with raw alongside of it. You think the JPG is wonderful. Then in 2027, you look back at it with more maturity, better taste, and better editing skills. You take the raw file and create another JPG or TIFF you like much, much better. A raw file leaves you room for growth. It's not always about how an image looks the day you shoot it. The JPG you like today may seem tacky next year.

It's like being able to retake your fifth-grade math tests with your grown-up brain.

I have a shot I thought was great two months ago. I have been learning since then, and now I see how I can make a major improvement. Glad I switched to raw before I shot it.

As for the drudgery of editing, I enjoy it a lot more than shooting.
 
My future self will be looking at all the AI edited images and wonder why I even tried.

I mean have you seen what they can/are doing with 50-year-old, blurry black and white snapshots? Upscale, sharpen, denoise and turn them into 4K video.

Add that ability into our cameras and it will make this debate look silly.
 
You definitely have to walk a line in order to avoid making yourself obsolete in your own home.
 
My future self will be looking at all the AI edited images and wonder why I even tried.

I mean have you seen what they can/are doing with 50-year-old, blurry black and white snapshots? Upscale, sharpen, denoise and turn them into 4K video.

Add that ability into our cameras and it will make this debate look silly.

AI has it's place and is making inroads fast. Adobe is updating constantly with new AI functions to make the editing process easier/faster. The problem I'm finding is it's not always faster. I paid for some advanced portrait presets recently, that rely heavily on AI and the masking function within LR. The problem is as you add more masks, the AI requires more processing time slowing down the process and forget about using synchronization across multiple images.

My father was a prolific film shooter, mainly slides. When he passed, I inherited stacks of boxes of unorganized, mostly uninteresting (to me) slides. Other than managing to pull a few family shots out, most of them went to a storage shed where they'll disintegrate till they're finally pitched. Last time I checked I have 30,000+ images being managed by LR. When I'm gone I'm pretty sure my kids will follow suit. Only difference is my files are organized so they can quickly pull out what they want.

When I was a young man, a wise old mentor told me that boys are born with an inherit need for toys, as you get older it's natural to fulfill that need with higher priced/bigger toys. The thing you need to remember is you can only enjoy them one at a time, so pick wisely, lest you become overwhelmed and unable to enjoy any of them.
 
My father was a prolific film shooter, mainly slides. When he passed, I inherited stacks of boxes of unorganized, mostly uninteresting (to me) slides. Other than managing to pull a few family shots out, most of them went to a storage shed where they'll disintegrate till they're finally pitched. Last time I checked I have 30,000+ images being managed by LR. When I'm gone I'm pretty sure my kids will follow suit. Only difference is my files are organized so they can quickly pull out what they want.

You should consider scanning all those slides so they don't turn to dust before you have a chance. My father left me suitcases full of photos that took weeks for me to scan. I would bet there is a service that could scan them for you.
 

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