Rookies are killing the business!

[imagemaker46]

When I was hired to be the photo chief during the 2001 World Figure Skating Championships I kept having people telling me "it can't be done" The thing is that it had to done, so I did it. It was really that simple, the only way things were going to run smooth was if it was done, and as no one else was going to help, they became the problem. Bypass the ones that say "can't" and as Nike says "just do it"

It's not always going to be easy, few things in life are, but if you want it, and regardless of what I say or anyone else says, some people will achieve what they want, good or bad.

 

[pixmedic]

as people with experience in a trade, we can either try to stem the tide of newbie "pros" by withholding our knowledge, chastising and berating them from our elitist pedestal for not doing things the way we did them, or the way we feel they should be done...OR, no matter HOW they got their start or at what experience/equipment level they are at, help them to improve, and in doing so, encourage and guide them to doing things properly and professionally.
that's the approach my wife is trying. hopefully it will yield some good results.

And that's laudable.

Unfortunately, it doesn't happen all too often here on TPF. On any given day, I'd imagine the "Don't do it because you're not good and you're not ready and this is why" posts out number the "Good luck and let us know how it goes" posts 100 to 1.

Manaheim took me to task for always taking the position of "Get out there and do it". Well, given the prevailing tone of everyone of those threads, why not?

Personally, I find the premise of the OP a bit odd. The second sentence says he's concerned about those who make a living shooting pictures.

Why?

He may well have his reasons but, personally, I've never seen it as my place to tell someone they should do something, simply because a negative result will have zero impact on me. It's all about action vs. responsibility. Step up and be a man. Do it, but take the heat if it goes bad. I see nothing wrong with that.

I work in a high-end retail shop, and I've had some issues with how certain things are laid out. One of those things was the location of our credit card machine. After telling the manager "We should move it here", I was told "We can't do that".

Well, maybe "we" can't, but I sure the Hell can. An hour later, all cables had been replaced and routed through the bottoms of display cabinets, the system was tested and it worked great. Everyone says the location improves work flow, and it does.

The only thing I knew about credit card terminals was that I didn't like where ours was. I didn't know how to test them or reboot them. I didn't know how to integrate it with our register or our routers. I didn't even have a very deep knowledge of drilling holes through cabinets (and avoiding the wiring in those) and routing wires through them, but I did it I just did what I did, plugged it all in, and hoped it worked. It did.

I did what I did, and I did it for three reasons.The first reason is that I felt it needed to be done. Second, no one else was gonna' do it. If they ever were, they'd have done it long ago. But the biggest reason I did it was because I was told "We can't do that".

It worked out well, so I've been the recipient of several pats on the back, and some may say those are well deserved. Had it not worked out, though, I would've been the recipient of several kicks in the ass, and those would've been well deserved, as well. The downside had the potential to put us down, saleswise, for the entire day. In all honesty, I probably would've lost my job.

Our manager had been telling people "it can't be done" simply because she didn't want to deal with the hassle of ordering some new cables. I worked with what we had on hand, drew on my shallow level of experience on such matters, and it works flawlessly.

Telling someone that they can't do something because "it can't be done" rarely has the desired outcome, which is keeping the person from doing it. Instead, lend a hand, offer sound, honest advice, and hope the person pulls it off. If they do, applaud them, if they don't, lambaste them and point out why...

I would love to take some of the credit for it. I wish I could say I haven't been one of the people yelling at newbies here for starting their very recent and illegal photography businesses...but those words would be false. I still believe that they really SHOULDN'T be doing things the way they are, and so does my wife, but she has the kinder, gentler machine gun hand. maybe she has the better approach. I would like to try it for myself and find out. Its difficult to go against something you feel passionately about, but maybe positive reinforcement and sincere guidance will be more productive to inducing change than negative reinforcement. maybe i just got sucked into my wife's optimism. Obviously we cant fix everyone, but if we can help ONE person better themselves as a photographer, maybe the photography community as a whole will be just a little bit better.

 

[Steve5D]

When I was hired to be the photo chief during the 2001 World Figure Skating Championships I kept having people telling me "it can't be done" The thing is that it had to done, so I did it. It was really that simple, the only way things were going to run smooth was if it was done, and as no one else was going to help, they became the problem. Bypass the ones that say "can't" and as Nike says "just do it"

It's not always going to be easy, few things in life are, but if you want it, and regardless of what I say or anyone else says, some people will achieve what they want, good or bad.

Excellent post...

 

[ghache]

Portfolios and photos speak for themselves. let the client choose whatever they want.

My only concern is when people pay outrageous sums of money for ****ty photos in the price range of pros who could have give them something nice for their money, that i hate it.

to me, if you paid and wanted to pay 150$ for wedding photos, you might get what you paid for.


I shoot photos for years now, while pricing myself not cheap but not expensive either, it keeps me going and i dont think it hurts the business as i give my client what they expect to get. However, for weddings, i always refer any request to 2-3 excellent photographer i know because i know what they can produce and will please them. I simply tell them, weddings is not my cup of tea and its alot more different than shooting portraits or whatever i do. I educated them and tell why they should pay, how much work it is and how much gear and skills it needs to be a good wedding photographer.

I do the same thing, I have a buddy who shoots weddings and I pass his name on to anyone that asks me about shooting weddings, he's not the best shooter I know, but he does a good job and everyone is always happy with the quality and professional service. ghache, I've seen your portrait stuff and have no doubt that you could do a pretty good job shooting a wedding, but also appreciate that you do pass the work onto a more experienced wedding photographer.

I know I could do a good job shooting weddings, it's not my thing, and as a professional I will pass work on to other professionals that rely on weddings for their sole income. It's just treating other professionals with respect for the work they do.

There are just too many people with cameras that don't give a crap about anyone else but themselves and making a few extra bucks on the weekend, being at the event to them is sometimes more important than doing a good job.

You are right. On thing that stop me from doing weddings is my current jobs which i work sometimes on weekends, last minutes changes and on call schedule and i cant commit to take a weddings gigs and be stuck working that weekend, plus gear is also an issue, im not 100% confident about it so its a no.... maybe one day i will make the jump. I am happy to see these clients get the best of their money and have my friends be able to do their work and get paid for it.

Talking about respect, since you are from the area, one the largest rock radio station in town approached me last week to shoot their monthly contest of "babes". Basically, 12 high end photoshoot so at the end of the year, they can make a calendar and sell it? lol. All was offered was publicity (Even if i had 200 clients calling tomorrow i couldn't take them in so to me it worth nothing) and a link to my web page on their . Really? I calmly refused as i knew the person who was sending me the email. Then they asked me if i know someone who could do it. I was like, no, i won't throw the unpaid/unfair proposal towards people i know.

 

[imagemaker46]

Portfolios and photos speak for themselves. let the client choose whatever they want.

My only concern is when people pay outrageous sums of money for ****ty photos in the price range of pros who could have give them something nice for their money, that i hate it.

to me, if you paid and wanted to pay 150$ for wedding photos, you might get what you paid for.


I shoot photos for years now, while pricing myself not cheap but not expensive either, it keeps me going and i dont think it hurts the business as i give my client what they expect to get. However, for weddings, i always refer any request to 2-3 excellent photographer i know because i know what they can produce and will please them. I simply tell them, weddings is not my cup of tea and its alot more different than shooting portraits or whatever i do. I educated them and tell why they should pay, how much work it is and how much gear and skills it needs to be a good wedding photographer.

I do the same thing, I have a buddy who shoots weddings and I pass his name on to anyone that asks me about shooting weddings, he's not the best shooter I know, but he does a good job and everyone is always happy with the quality and professional service. ghache, I've seen your portrait stuff and have no doubt that you could do a pretty good job shooting a wedding, but also appreciate that you do pass the work onto a more experienced wedding photographer.

I know I could do a good job shooting weddings, it's not my thing, and as a professional I will pass work on to other professionals that rely on weddings for their sole income. It's just treating other professionals with respect for the work they do.

There are just too many people with cameras that don't give a crap about anyone else but themselves and making a few extra bucks on the weekend, being at the event to them is sometimes more important than doing a good job.

You are right. On thing that stop me from doing weddings is my current jobs which i work sometimes on weekends, last minutes changes and on call schedule and i cant commit to take a weddings gigs and be stuck working that weekend, plus gear is also an issue, im not 100% confident about it so its a no.... maybe one day i will make the jump. I am happy to see these clients get the best of their money and have my friends be able to do their work and get paid for it.

Talking about respect, since you are from the area, one the largest rock radio station in town approached me last week to shoot their monthly contest of "babes". Basically, 12 high end photoshoot so at the end of the year, they can make a calendar and sell it? lol. All was offered was publicity (Even if i had 200 clients calling tomorrow i couldn't take them in so to me it worth nothing) and a link to my web page on their . Really? I calmly refused as i knew the person who was sending me the email. Then they asked me if i know someone who could do it. I was like, no, i won't throw the unpaid/unfair proposal towards people i know.

It's amazing what people ask for and still think that having your name attached is of some real value, it sounds good, but rarely works out to be of any advantage or future work. I get the same thing all the time, "we are a non-profit" group and will give you credit if you just give us" Well it can be no-profit all it wants, but these people are still getting paid. This drives me nuts, when obvious businesses that have money are wanting everything free. I have told people that when they stop at a grocery store do they just go in and take what they want without paying for it, the answer is always no, then why should they consider me giving them something for free.

The worst part about you not taking the job is we both know that someone else will do it for free just to hang out with the girls, I think I know who would do it for free that lives in town, and does a lot of model shoots. He always ends up with something out of the shoots and it's not always money he gets.

 

[pixmedic]

I do the same thing, I have a buddy who shoots weddings and I pass his name on to anyone that asks me about shooting weddings, he's not the best shooter I know, but he does a good job and everyone is always happy with the quality and professional service. ghache, I've seen your portrait stuff and have no doubt that you could do a pretty good job shooting a wedding, but also appreciate that you do pass the work onto a more experienced wedding photographer.

I know I could do a good job shooting weddings, it's not my thing, and as a professional I will pass work on to other professionals that rely on weddings for their sole income. It's just treating other professionals with respect for the work they do.

There are just too many people with cameras that don't give a crap about anyone else but themselves and making a few extra bucks on the weekend, being at the event to them is sometimes more important than doing a good job.

You are right. On thing that stop me from doing weddings is my current jobs which i work sometimes on weekends, last minutes changes and on call schedule and i cant commit to take a weddings gigs and be stuck working that weekend, plus gear is also an issue, im not 100% confident about it so its a no.... maybe one day i will make the jump. I am happy to see these clients get the best of their money and have my friends be able to do their work and get paid for it.

Talking about respect, since you are from the area, one the largest rock radio station in town approached me last week to shoot their monthly contest of "babes". Basically, 12 high end photoshoot so at the end of the year, they can make a calendar and sell it? lol. All was offered was publicity (Even if i had 200 clients calling tomorrow i couldn't take them in so to me it worth nothing) and a link to my web page on their . Really? I calmly refused as i knew the person who was sending me the email. Then they asked me if i know someone who could do it. I was like, no, i won't throw the unpaid/unfair proposal towards people i know.

It's amazing what people ask for and still think that having your name attached is of some real value, it sounds good, but rarely works out to be of any advantage or future work. I get the same thing all the time, "we are a non-profit" group and will give you credit if you just give us" Well it can be no-profit all it wants, but these people are still getting paid. This drives me nuts, when obvious businesses that have money are wanting everything free. I have told people that when they stop at a grocery store do they just go in and take what they want without paying for it, the answer is always no, then why should they consider me giving them something for free.

The worst part about you not taking the job is we both know that someone else will do it for free just to hang out with the girls, I think I know who would do it for free that lives in town, and does a lot of model shoots. He always ends up with something out of the shoots and it's not always money he gets.

It seems to be a problem anytime you have a job where it looks like "time" is your only overhead. Its easy for people to ask you to donate "time" as apposed to physical objects. It's usually the case that the people asking you to donate your time and skills are themselves, being paid for their time and skills. Part of their "job" is to get as much free skilled labor as possible.

 

[ghache]

I do the same thing, I have a buddy who shoots weddings and I pass his name on to anyone that asks me about shooting weddings, he's not the best shooter I know, but he does a good job and everyone is always happy with the quality and professional service. ghache, I've seen your portrait stuff and have no doubt that you could do a pretty good job shooting a wedding, but also appreciate that you do pass the work onto a more experienced wedding photographer.

I know I could do a good job shooting weddings, it's not my thing, and as a professional I will pass work on to other professionals that rely on weddings for their sole income. It's just treating other professionals with respect for the work they do.

There are just too many people with cameras that don't give a crap about anyone else but themselves and making a few extra bucks on the weekend, being at the event to them is sometimes more important than doing a good job.

You are right. On thing that stop me from doing weddings is my current jobs which i work sometimes on weekends, last minutes changes and on call schedule and i cant commit to take a weddings gigs and be stuck working that weekend, plus gear is also an issue, im not 100% confident about it so its a no.... maybe one day i will make the jump. I am happy to see these clients get the best of their money and have my friends be able to do their work and get paid for it.

Talking about respect, since you are from the area, one the largest rock radio station in town approached me last week to shoot their monthly contest of "babes". Basically, 12 high end photoshoot so at the end of the year, they can make a calendar and sell it? lol. All was offered was publicity (Even if i had 200 clients calling tomorrow i couldn't take them in so to me it worth nothing) and a link to my web page on their . Really? I calmly refused as i knew the person who was sending me the email. Then they asked me if i know someone who could do it. I was like, no, i won't throw the unpaid/unfair proposal towards people i know.

It's amazing what people ask for and still think that having your name attached is of some real value, it sounds good, but rarely works out to be of any advantage or future work. I get the same thing all the time, "we are a non-profit" group and will give you credit if you just give us" Well it can be no-profit all it wants, but these people are still getting paid. This drives me nuts, when obvious businesses that have money are wanting everything free. I have told people that when they stop at a grocery store do they just go in and take what they want without paying for it, the answer is always no, then why should they consider me giving them something for free.

The worst part about you not taking the job is we both know that someone else will do it for free just to hang out with the girls, I think I know who would do it for free that lives in town, and does a lot of model shoots. He always ends up with something out of the shoots and it's not always money he gets.

Well, they will probably find someone to do it for free, as they have one doing it for free right now. The main funny thing is that they said they knew they could do better with the photography of the contest cauz they are not totally happy with the results. They also states clearly on the site that the photo session is worth 600$. Thats 7200 $ the poor dude doing it for free is going to end up "paying" for a link to his website.

 

[Steve5D]

I was like, no, i won't throw the unpaid/unfair proposal towards people i know.

Did you just tell them "no", or did you tell them why you were saying no?

 

[Pukka312]

I do the same thing, I have a buddy who shoots weddings and I pass his name on to anyone that asks me about shooting weddings, he's not the best shooter I know, but he does a good job and everyone is always happy with the quality and professional service. ghache, I've seen your portrait stuff and have no doubt that you could do a pretty good job shooting a wedding, but also appreciate that you do pass the work onto a more experienced wedding photographer.

I know I could do a good job shooting weddings, it's not my thing, and as a professional I will pass work on to other professionals that rely on weddings for their sole income. It's just treating other professionals with respect for the work they do.

There are just too many people with cameras that don't give a crap about anyone else but themselves and making a few extra bucks on the weekend, being at the event to them is sometimes more important than doing a good job.

You are right. On thing that stop me from doing weddings is my current jobs which i work sometimes on weekends, last minutes changes and on call schedule and i cant commit to take a weddings gigs and be stuck working that weekend, plus gear is also an issue, im not 100% confident about it so its a no.... maybe one day i will make the jump. I am happy to see these clients get the best of their money and have my friends be able to do their work and get paid for it.

Talking about respect, since you are from the area, one the largest rock radio station in town approached me last week to shoot their monthly contest of "babes". Basically, 12 high end photoshoot so at the end of the year, they can make a calendar and sell it? lol. All was offered was publicity (Even if i had 200 clients calling tomorrow i couldn't take them in so to me it worth nothing) and a link to my web page on their . Really? I calmly refused as i knew the person who was sending me the email. Then they asked me if i know someone who could do it. I was like, no, i won't throw the unpaid/unfair proposal towards people i know.

It's amazing what people ask for and still think that having your name attached is of some real value, it sounds good, but rarely works out to be of any advantage or future work. I get the same thing all the time, "we are a non-profit" group and will give you credit if you just give us" Well it can be no-profit all it wants, but these people are still getting paid. This drives me nuts, when obvious businesses that have money are wanting everything free. I have told people that when they stop at a grocery store do they just go in and take what they want without paying for it, the answer is always no, then why should they consider me giving them something for free.

The worst part about you not taking the job is we both know that someone else will do it for free just to hang out with the girls, I think I know who would do it for free that lives in town, and does a lot of model shoots. He always ends up with something out of the shoots and it's not always money he gets.

This totally reminded me of this "Photographer Looking For People to Do Their Job Without Pay"