Rookies are killing the business!

[pixmedic]

Cheap digital cameras, cell phones, and the inability of the average person to tell the difference between good and bad. There will never be any kind of "licence" to be certified as a professional photographer. People will still hire photographers because they understand that skill and experience still matters in most situations, the rest of the world doesn't really care if someone has two weeks with a camera or 20 years. When I see that someone is shooting weddings at $2000 for 6 hours work, I wonder what they are getting for for $2000. My son is getting married and asked me to see if I could find a good wedding photographer, as I was involved in the wedding. After looking at 3 web sites with a combined 10 years experience "creating the images that will last a lifetime bs" Packages starting at $2000. I told him I would shoot the wedding, and any photos I was in, I would hand the camera off. I have no doubt that I can shoot the wedding without any concerns and that what I produce will be far better than some $2000 professional wedding photographer could turn out. Weddings are formula, show up, set up and shoot. I have seen some quite amazing wedding photography that portray professional experience and skill. I have seen some that are pure unskilled crap. Like every area of photography there is consistent good and there is consistent bad, unfortunately the gap between the two is getting closer and not for the better.

Before all the professional wedding photographers jump down my throat on this, if you are running a business full time as a wedding photographer and doing a great job at it, I respect that. But the majority aren't doing that, they are weekend pretenders, same as the weekend sports and portrait types. It always looks like easy money until it's the only money. There is a lot more to this business than owning a camera, I'd like everyone that is playing weekend professional to have the opportunity of not having a pay cheque for 6 months and using money from photography only. They would see how much fun the job really is, when it's all you have.

In NY some get $7,500 a wedding.

Photography is my wifes only income, but i work as well. Where do we fit in as a dual income home since photography is not our sole source of money? Sure, we probably wouldn't do to great on just the photography income, but we wouldn't fair much better on only my medic salary. I dont see the difference between someone doing photography part time as a second job, and me working at a hospital part time to make extra money. (assuming you are licensed and paying taxes on the extra income)

 

[rexbobcat]

Right. Which is exactly why I compared them as equals. It's two different roads that both reach the same destination. There's a reason why I used those monetary figures too. $200 x 20 shoots = $4000 and $4000 x 1 shoot = $4000 as well.

Some people in this thread have explained that they prefer doing several low-dollar shoots while some prefer doing just a few high-dollar shoots when in essence, they're all doing the same amount of work and it just comes down to personal preference.

Is that just one photographer though or does that include an entire team of photographers and videographers? Lol

 

[pgriz]

In the discussion of many shoots vs. a few shoots, the other things to consider are opportunity costs and transactional costs. Opportunity costs really are about whether you're doing the most useful or productive thing - If you do "this" are you missing out on something else that is potentially more rewarding or more lucrative? The transactional costs are all the little bits associated with "one" transaction, including the time to set it up, the travel (if applicable), the paperwork and book-keeping, the credit card charges (if applicable), the recording of the interaction in your client management system (you got one, right?), and so on. If the transactions all tend to be one-time purchases, then tracking who you're doing business with is probably a waste of time, but if there is the potential for recurring (or referral) business, then it becomes very important to know what you've done with that client (or prospect) in the past, and what is needed for future transactions.

 

[cynicaster]

I was wondering how long I’d need to be on this site before I saw a thread about this. As it turns out, not long at all.

I’m inclined to agree with those who say that the “real professionals” need to fight their way through modern realities, elevate themselves above the low-brow competition, and sell their value by means of a portfolio that speaks for itself.

It needs to be accepted, however, that selling value will only be possible in the correct demographic.

As is the case with any creative and highly subjective medium, consumers of photography fall on a continuously varying spectrum that has “discerning connoisseur” at one end and “casual/pedestrian” at the other. The former place enormous significance on nuance, originality, and technical execution; the latter treat photographs as more of a commodity than an art form, and are simply not going to see the value in shelling out a few grand for a high-falutin’ professional when Uncle Walt only charges a case of Busch Light for his services. His photos may be rife with boring compositions, hit-and-miss sharpness, cluttered backgrounds, crooked horizons, unnatural colors, and harsh shadows from his crappy pop-up flash, but the smiles on everybody’s faces are nice, and the pictures depict rarely seen family members all together in one frame, so mission accomplished!

 

[LadyA]

I tired to post last night but I don't see it... My thoughts were... I understand the 77 weddings with the kit concern.. but don't all pros start as rookies? I'm %100 rookie but don't plan to be forever! I think a phony and a rookie are two different things.

 

[manaheim]

I tired to post last night but I don't see it... My thoughts were... I understand the 77 weddings with the kit concern.. but don't all pros start as rookies? I'm %100 rookie but don't plan to be forever! I think a phony and a rookie are two different things.

Sure. The "normal" way of working up to weddings is learning your gear inside and out, apprenticing as a second photographer for a bunch if weddings and eventually transitioning to primary.

 

[Steve5D]

I tired to post last night but I don't see it... My thoughts were... I understand the 77 weddings with the kit concern.. but don't all pros start as rookies? I'm %100 rookie but don't plan to be forever! I think a phony and a rookie are two different things.

Sure. The "normal" way of working up to weddings is learning your gear inside and out, apprenticing as a second photographer for a bunch if weddings and eventually transitioning to primary.

I think the word "common" would be more appropriate than "normal".

How one person does it in no way should dictate how another does it, and just because a particular way is more common doesn't mean it's the only way it should be done.

With regards to something like this, I believe the end justifies the means...

 

[manaheim]

I think the word "common" would be more appropriate than "normal".

How one person does it in no way should dictate how another does it, and just because a particular way is more common doesn't mean it's the only way it should be done.

With regards to something like this, I believe the end justifies the means...

Unless the commonness comes from some level of sense that has not been significantly affected by recent changes in the world that might dictate a different course.

 

[ghache]

Portfolios and photos speak for themselves. let the client choose whatever they want.

My only concern is when people pay outrageous sums of money for ****ty photos in the price range of pros who could have give them something nice for their money, that i hate it.

to me, if you paid and wanted to pay 150$ for wedding photos, you might get what you paid for.


I shoot photos for years now, while pricing myself not cheap but not expensive either, it keeps me going and i dont think it hurts the business as i give my client what they expect to get. However, for weddings, i always refer any request to 2-3 excellent photographer i know because i know what they can produce and will please them. I simply tell them, weddings is not my cup of tea and its alot more different than shooting portraits or whatever i do. I educated them and tell why they should pay, how much work it is and how much gear and skills it needs to be a good wedding photographer.

 

[Steve5D]

I think the word "common" would be more appropriate than "normal".

How one person does it in no way should dictate how another does it, and just because a particular way is more common doesn't mean it's the only way it should be done.

With regards to something like this, I believe the end justifies the means...

Unless the commonness comes from some level of sense that has not been significantly affected by recent changes in the world that might dictate a different course.

Not at all.

Just because something works for one person doesn't mean it'll work for another, nor should it be presumed that it would.

What's "normal" is that we each do what we see as the best path for ourselves (assuming it's legal and moral) towards attaining our goal.

After all, what's "normal" for the spider is often chaos for the fly...

 

[Steve5D]

to me, if you paid and wanted to pay 150$ for wedding photos, you might get what you paid for.

And, quite often, it's possible that you get something worth far more than what a photographer might think is worth $150.00.

In such a case, is that the problem of the low-cost shooter who got the gig or the expensive shooter who didn't?

I educated them and tell why they should pay, how much work it is and how much gear and skills it needs to be a good wedding photographer.

If you're deferring a job to someone else, you shouldn't be commenting beyond that. You only get to do that if you accept the job...

 

[manaheim]

I think the word "common" would be more appropriate than "normal".

How one person does it in no way should dictate how another does it, and just because a particular way is more common doesn't mean it's the only way it should be done.

With regards to something like this, I believe the end justifies the means...

Unless the commonness comes from some level of sense that has not been significantly affected by recent changes in the world that might dictate a different course.

Not at all.

Just because something works for one person doesn't mean it'll work for another, nor should it be presumed that it would.

What's "normal" is that we each do what we see as the best path for ourselves (assuming it's legal and moral) towards attaining our goal.

After all, what's "normal" for the spider is often chaos for the fly...

You mention morality. Is it morale to go into a wedding with no experience and no real understanding of your equipment or photography?

You want so desperately... like so many other people... to defend people's right to go diving into these things just because... well, I don't even know WHY. I can't figure you out.

So I sit here suggesting HEY! STEVE! MAYBE IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA IF PEOPLE ACTUALLY KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING? MAYBE IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA IF PEOPLE APPRENTICED TO OTHERS... NOT BECAUSE IT'S WHAT IS DONE, BUT IT BECAUSE IT MAKES A WHOLE HEAP LOAD OF GOOD FRICKEN SENSE!

And then you say "Oh but SOME new people have pulled it off! Including me! Just because it makes sense for everyone, doesn't mean it has to be that way!!!"

Right. Brilliant approach.

Look... I make a healthy salary and have a great lifestyle, but haven't completed my degree, but I'll be the FIRST to tell you that not getting your degree is STOOOOOOOOOOPID and just ASKING for ALL KINDS of trouble. But hey! It worked for me! So SCREW degrees! Right?

Brilliant.

 

[rexbobcat]

Unless the commonness comes from some level of sense that has not been significantly affected by recent changes in the world that might dictate a different course.

Not at all.

Just because something works for one person doesn't mean it'll work for another, nor should it be presumed that it would.

What's "normal" is that we each do what we see as the best path for ourselves (assuming it's legal and moral) towards attaining our goal.

After all, what's "normal" for the spider is often chaos for the fly...

You mention morality. Is it morale to go into a wedding with no experience and no real understanding of your equipment or photography?

You want so desperately... like so many other people... to defend people's right to go diving into these things just because... well, I don't even know WHY. I can't figure you out.

So I sit here suggesting HEY! STEVE! MAYBE IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA IF PEOPLE ACTUALLY KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING? MAYBE IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA IF PEOPLE APPRENTICED TO OTHERS... NOT BECAUSE IT'S WHAT IS DONE, BUT IT BECAUSE IT MAKES A WHOLE HEAP LOAD OF GOOD FRICKEN SENSE!

And then you say "Oh but SOME new people have pulled it off! Including me! Just because it makes sense for everyone, doesn't mean it has to be that way!!!"

Right. Brilliant approach.

Look... I make a healthy salary and have a great lifestyle, but haven't completed my degree, but I'll be the FIRST to tell you that not getting your degree is STOOOOOOOOOOPID and just ASKING for ALL KINDS of trouble. But hey! It worked for me! So SCREW degrees! Right?

Brilliant.

Not to be all nitpicky and jerky (mmmm jerky) but wouldn't it be more a matter of ethicality than morality? I mean, I guess it does have some moral implications considering that it's almost like the photographer doesn't want the bride and groom to have the best product and that makes you a TERRIBLE PERSON GOOD GOD DID YOUR MOTHER CONSUMMATE WITH SATAN, YOU SHOULD CALL HER RIGHT NOW AND APOLOGIZE FOR HAVING BEEN BORN, DEMON BEGONE!...ahem...but...yeah...

I agree with you.

 

[runnah]

I punched a guy with a d3x, does that count?

 

[manaheim]

Rex: heh, yeah, good point.

runnah: You bad man. Very bad.