Rookies are killing the business!

I have found with my own wedding photography business that I attract the clients I want through referrals, (previous brides) the way I do my consultations, and the way I conduct business.
Here are some things to consider:
-Image and professionism is everything. When I am shooting a wedding, I have to remember that my work is everywhere. The guest book has my images all over it and I need to treat all the guests like my next potential clients. Those guests are my next clients!!!!!
-I always try to sell a canvas or some large print from the engagement session for a display piece at the reception.
-Always have business cards handy to anyone who asks for them, especially if you are at a new venue! The staff can be your best friend and will refer you for just the way you conduct yourself. Treat them kindly.
-I do my consultations at my home. I make sure it is clean, organized, and ready for them before they arrive. I have the contract printed BEFORE they arrive so there is no delay if they are ready to sign. First impressions are everything.
-I show past wedding images and video footage (I use Proshow Producer) on my big screen tv, before I start discussing pricing and contracts. I always tell them what I have to offer, and how the day will unfold BEFORE I tell them how much. :)
-I ALWAYS show a ton of samples. You can NOT sell it if you don't show it!!!!! I would never purchase a $1000 album if I could not see it first. Show them what they will get. Yes, you will have to spend some money and a good amount of time creating samples, but the return is HUGE.
-I like to show a large variety of sample for different price points. So everyone has an opportunity to purchase something. My mark-up is still the same! My goal is to put high quality products in their hands. I want every aunt, uncle, grandma, and grandma to walk away with something. I give a discount to the b/g if they purchase products for family members.
-I am not a sales person! I show it, and then it sells itself. These are the things I show. Albums, (high end flush, photographic, 4x4 mini Kiss and press) metal prints, different sizes of canvas, large professional framed prints, 3x3 and 4x8 accordian albums, standouts, custom image boxes, and custom DVD's with their images from the wedding.

So, in short....rookies are NOT killing the business. Only the person behind the business can kill the business! Plus, your business has to be alive first before you can kill it. :) Hope this helps someone.
 
Buyer beware.
You get what you pay for.
A fool and his money are soon parted.
A sucker is born every minute.
Save a minute waste an hour.

Yes, but all that moaning about the uneducated customer is a waste of time because, for most people, buying a wedding photographer's time is a one-time thing and they just don't have the perspective to understand why a more expensive photographer may be better or why a newbie may be worse.

You have maybe one shot at educating them, if you are lucky, and if you don't or if they decide wrongly from your view, it's not their fault.
They are making the decision based on what they know and their own life circumstances.
 
Buyer beware.
You get what you pay for.
A fool and his money are soon parted.
A sucker is born every minute.
Save a minute waste an hour.

Yes, but all that moaning about the uneducated customer is a waste of time because, for most people, buying a wedding photographer's time is a one-time thing and they just don't have the perspective to understand why a more expensive photographer may be better or why a newbie may be worse.

You have maybe one shot at educating them, if you are lucky, and if you don't or if they decide wrongly from your view, it's not their fault.
They are making the decision based on what they know and their own life circumstances.

Right, but I've seen brides that spend months researching a floral arrangement and then 5 min on craigslist looking for a photographer.
 
Thankfully, I'm not a pro. I'd go broke if I was. My concern is for those who make their living behind the lens.

A couple of weeks ago, I <forget the name> posted that he was being undercut for album covers, etc for a musician he frequently photographed. Hence, the musician went with the cheaper source. Then, about 2 weeks ago, JaneJ posted in the Canon Lens forum she was looking to get a new lens. It came out in that thread that she's been doing wedding photography for 2 years and has done 77 weddings with nothing more than kit equipment and kit lenses! She had posted a link to her website and one person commented about the unusual coloring and other quite non-professional 'enhancements' to the photographs.

I hadn't seen any posts from her since, so we probably scared her off. I was curious, however, and did a search. Back in October 2011, she posted she had bought a T3i or something like that and was getting blurry pictures. She also indicated she had already done 32 weddings at that point with her kit equipment. THIRTY TWO! What utterly floored me was that she was shooting everything in "A"!!! She couldn't figure out why things were blurred shooting at 1/60th, and letting the camera make all the decisions, including where to focus! And now, 2 weeks ago, said she's done 77 weddings!

Apparently, ignorance is bliss for JaneJ as well as her customers.

Then you read, I think it was here, about a pro travelling 200 miles for a shoot in Denver and the customer hated their work, changed the one picture he liked and posted it on his website without crediting the photographer...then wanted her (I think it was a woman) to come back for another shoot!

There was a recent thread (here?, Photographyonthe.net?) suggesting photographers should be licensed or certified in some way to at least show they are competent and not some MWOC that just got a camera last week and goes out shooting weddings. The more I think about it, I think it should be implemented. Once upon a time, a pro had to do everything in manual (there was no other settings!) and be proficient in the darkroom as well. Nowadays, $500 for a kit camera and the free software that comes with it, an existing home computer and they call themselves "Pro"s.

I've long since learned that doing what you love is far more important in life than doing what pays the best. I used to have it both ways as a computer consultant. But these days, unless one has a wall full of certificates in this or that, and a piece of paper that says someone paid $100K or more to put you through school, there's no work to be had. And, of course, what comes from that is failed multi-million dollar projects, systems that don't work 100%, and on and on.

As for professional photographers, the problem seems to me, at least, of how to let 'the world' know you are out there and can do far, far better than some weekend warrier with a brand new T3i and no clue how to use it. Considering the trip-to-Denver photographer, those that can afford quality fail to recognize it and even berate those who 'do it right'.

Because I don't have all the 'paperwork', I've had to leave the computer world and find employment outside the field. In the world of photography, the day of the 'good enough and cheap enough' looks like it will spell the eventual doom of truly professional photography. Ain't technology great??? ... NOT!!

I have been going on about this type of Rant for a long time (as I am sure you are aware of). With me, the issue is more the ethics of the "photographers" that think they can just pick up a camera and then go PRO... but I have come to realize that many of them even lack the knowledge to know what good work is (or they figure, everyone else is doing it, why shouldn't I?) My main problem has been the people who charge for crap... because it DOES lower the consumers expectations of what to pay, and what they will receive... and the consumers don't know any better either (or they are after a POS bargain).

It is frustrating! But the real pro's will keep going, and the others will either go out of business, get caught not paying taxes, get tired of the hassle, (or their SO will stop supporting their photography habit).. and quit! (we can only hope, right?)
 
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"There was a recent thread (here?, Photographyonthe.net?) suggesting photographers should be licensed or certified in some way to at least show they are competent and not some MWOC that just got a camera last week and goes out shooting weddings. The more I think about it, I think it should be implemented. Once upon a time, a pro had to do everything in manual (there was no other settings!) and be proficient in the darkroom as well. Nowadays, $500 for a kit camera and the free software that comes with it, an existing home computer and they call themselves "Pro"s.

I've long since learned that doing what you love is far more important in life than doing what pays the best. I used to have it both ways as a computer consultant. But these days, unless one has a wall full of certificates in this or that, and a piece of paper that says someone paid $100K or more to put you through school, there's no work to be had. And, of course, what comes from that is failed multi-million dollar projects, systems that don't work 100%, and on and on.



This is my whole issue with the "certification" route is people think, oh great, now photographers will be qualified and skilled etc. etc. but the reality is like your second paragraph. schools will just crop up all over the place raking in money hand over fist training people to "pass" the test. they will know how to pass a test but they won't be truly qualified to be a photographer, and people will pass over skilled knowledgable quality photographers for these inexperienced certificate wavers who only know how to pass a test. just don't think testing will be the cure all people think it will be.

A few people hit on it above. a lot of the public just isn't going to pay the price for photos. people have gotten used to paying the cheapest price for things. they ***** about quality and how they hate junk and foreign made goods and then they will turn around, go to the store and look for the cheapest item and throw it in the cart. so you have a society built up around just buying whatever is the cheapest option. and you have people out there going well if i just charge them 20 bucks, that's better then nothing and i'm making some money. Photography as a profession is changing and you have to adapt or get trampled. as much as people are complaining there are people out there who are making good money so it is possible. you have to just change with the times to make your business succsessful. complaining about who is responsible won't solve the issue, trying to force in some standard isn't the issue either.




To imagemaker, I would suggest taking a look at more then just 3 photographers. It's your son's wedding, you should be sitting in the pew watching yoru son on what should be the happiest of his life and should be high on the marks for one of your happiest days, spend it with your son and family celebrating the event and not stuck behind a camera working.
 
All this might be true for wedding photographers, sport shooters, real-estate and assorted other grab your equipment and go shoot it. I never face much of this as I work with ad agencies and graphic design companies and most of what I do is in-studio. I have though watched for years the erosion of this profession and glad I got in this at a time when it was a lot easier to establish yourself. I asked an art director friend one day if he has used anyone new lately and his reply was " I have enough photographers to last me several lifetimes" Photographers send agencies promo stuff all the time and some get up on the walls and when asked if they have used them the answer is no....just liked the shot but would not take a chance on a real job. There are many clients that are very loyal and have been so over the years, it's about doing good work and being a friend. The Ad business is not easy to break into so I don't feel threatened by new photographers, if you run your business right you can't afford to stay in business very long doing it on the cheap.
 
[h=2]Rookies are killing the business![/h]


I have not read the rest of the thread so don't really know what other replies have said but all I can say is - NO they are not.

In some cases (seems like a lot of cases in the US at least) then the guy or mom with camera is thinking they can run a business - give it a go at 50 bucks/quid a throw and quickly find they cannot survive/are not good enough/ get no customers or whatever and then disappear into the distance.

In other cases "rookies" do things properly, learn the business, learn the technical/artistic side and when ready they go for it with good product and a reasonable price.

Neither one is "Killing" the business.

The first fulfills a need for customers who cannot afford a "proper" photographer and would never normally have used one anyway. They also would not know a good shot if it jumped up and bit them.
The customer who has used photographers in the past and thinks they will get the same standard of finished product from the G/MWC soon finds out they don't.
In my experience they then have to come back with their tail between their legs to a "proper" business and get the shoot redone.
Hardly killing the business in my experience.

The second example above of the rookie who approaches things properly is not Killing the business. They are helping the business by bringing fresh ideas and keeping the rest of us on our toes.

If people think that the G/MWC are killing the business then they should be looking at their own business first.

Look at how you are approaching your own business/marketing. Look at the customers you are aiming your services at and off course look at the product/service you are selling.

BMW/AUDI/Jaguar/Ferrari etc did not moan about Toyota etc "killing the business" and I don't honestly know why many in the photographic community moan about the G/MWC's quite so much.

There is a huge market out there. A market which is a mix of knowledgeable people who can tell the difference between a good and bad shot and are willing to pay a proper price for the good and those who think that a blurry shot with bad post processing is great as long as they get all the shots on disc for 50 quid.

That is not killing the business - that is the world as it is.
 
Thankfully, I'm not a pro. I'd go broke if I was. My concern is for those who make their living behind the lens.

A couple of weeks ago, I <forget the name> posted that he was being undercut for album covers, etc for a musician he frequently photographed. Hence, the musician went with the cheaper source. Then, about 2 weeks ago, JaneJ posted in the Canon Lens forum she was looking to get a new lens. It came out in that thread that she's been doing wedding photography for 2 years and has done 77 weddings with nothing more than kit equipment and kit lenses! She had posted a link to her website and one person commented about the unusual coloring and other quite non-professional 'enhancements' to the photographs.

I hadn't seen any posts from her since, so we probably scared her off. I was curious, however, and did a search. Back in October 2011, she posted she had bought a T3i or something like that and was getting blurry pictures. She also indicated she had already done 32 weddings at that point with her kit equipment. THIRTY TWO! What utterly floored me was that she was shooting everything in "A"!!! She couldn't figure out why things were blurred shooting at 1/60th, and letting the camera make all the decisions, including where to focus! And now, 2 weeks ago, said she's done 77 weddings!

Apparently, ignorance is bliss for JaneJ as well as her customers.

Then you read, I think it was here, about a pro travelling 200 miles for a shoot in Denver and the customer hated their work, changed the one picture he liked and posted it on his website without crediting the photographer...then wanted her (I think it was a woman) to come back for another shoot!

There was a recent thread (here?, Photographyonthe.net?) suggesting photographers should be licensed or certified in some way to at least show they are competent and not some MWOC that just got a camera last week and goes out shooting weddings. The more I think about it, I think it should be implemented. Once upon a time, a pro had to do everything in manual (there was no other settings!) and be proficient in the darkroom as well. Nowadays, $500 for a kit camera and the free software that comes with it, an existing home computer and they call themselves "Pro"s.

I've long since learned that doing what you love is far more important in life than doing what pays the best. I used to have it both ways as a computer consultant. But these days, unless one has a wall full of certificates in this or that, and a piece of paper that says someone paid $100K or more to put you through school, there's no work to be had. And, of course, what comes from that is failed multi-million dollar projects, systems that don't work 100%, and on and on.

As for professional photographers, the problem seems to me, at least, of how to let 'the world' know you are out there and can do far, far better than some weekend warrier with a brand new T3i and no clue how to use it. Considering the trip-to-Denver photographer, those that can afford quality fail to recognize it and even berate those who 'do it right'.

Because I don't have all the 'paperwork', I've had to leave the computer world and find employment outside the field. In the world of photography, the day of the 'good enough and cheap enough' looks like it will spell the eventual doom of truly professional photography. Ain't technology great??? ... NOT!!

I have been going on about this type of Rant for a long time (as I am sure you are aware of). With me, the issue is more the ethics of the "photographers" that think they can just pick up a camera and then go PRO... but I have come to realize that many of them even lack the knowledge to know what good work is (or they figure, everyone else is doing it, why shouldn't I?) My main problem has been the people who charge for crap... because it DOES lower the consumers expectations of what to pay, and what they will receive... and the consumers don't know any better either (or they are after a POS bargain).

It is frustrating! But the real pro's will keep going, and the others will either go out of business, get caught not paying taxes, get tired of the hassle, (or their SO will stop supporting their photography habit).. and quit! (we can only hope, right?)


See, I dont see this happening for the fact that the mentallity today is diffrent. It seems in the past. people would decide to do photography as a profession and they would work towards doing it full time to support yourself. Now people are coming in and not expecting to support themselves. there only goal is to make a little money on the side. If your goal isn't to do this full time then you don't have that push and need to better your skills. you don't have the push to learn proper business practices and such because "ohh its just some side money" no biggie. I origonally thought that well once enough time has passed people will know there's no money to be had. or that they wont make a ton of money and it would dry up. But if your just coming into it with the mentallity of just earning some beer money. you don't really care as much. for everyone that fails there will be 3 to take there place and it will just be a continuos revolving door of bodies.
 
"There was a recent thread (here?, Photographyonthe.net?) suggesting photographers should be licensed or certified in some way to at least show they are competent and not some MWOC that just got a camera last week and goes out shooting weddings. The more I think about it, I think it should be implemented. Once upon a time, a pro had to do everything in manual (there was no other settings!) and be proficient in the darkroom as well. Nowadays, $500 for a kit camera and the free software that comes with it, an existing home computer and they call themselves "Pro"s.

I've long since learned that doing what you love is far more important in life than doing what pays the best. I used to have it both ways as a computer consultant. But these days, unless one has a wall full of certificates in this or that, and a piece of paper that says someone paid $100K or more to put you through school, there's no work to be had. And, of course, what comes from that is failed multi-million dollar projects, systems that don't work 100%, and on and on.



This is my whole issue with the "certification" route is people think, oh great, now photographers will be qualified and skilled etc. etc. but the reality is like your second paragraph. schools will just crop up all over the place raking in money hand over fist training people to "pass" the test. they will know how to pass a test but they won't be truly qualified to be a photographer, and people will pass over skilled knowledgable quality photographers for these inexperienced certificate wavers who only know how to pass a test. just don't think testing will be the cure all people think it will be.

A few people hit on it above. a lot of the public just isn't going to pay the price for photos. people have gotten used to paying the cheapest price for things. they ***** about quality and how they hate junk and foreign made goods and then they will turn around, go to the store and look for the cheapest item and throw it in the cart. so you have a society built up around just buying whatever is the cheapest option. and you have people out there going well if i just charge them 20 bucks, that's better then nothing and i'm making some money. Photography as a profession is changing and you have to adapt or get trampled. as much as people are complaining there are people out there who are making good money so it is possible. you have to just change with the times to make your business succsessful. complaining about who is responsible won't solve the issue, trying to force in some standard isn't the issue either.




To imagemaker, I would suggest taking a look at more then just 3 photographers. It's your son's wedding, you should be sitting in the pew watching yoru son on what should be the happiest of his life and should be high on the marks for one of your happiest days, spend it with your son and family celebrating the event and not stuck behind a camera working.


I know I should just sit back and enjoy, my son and his fiance asked me months ago if I would shoot their wedding for them and I had said no at that point. I had asked a friend of mine who is a professional wedding photographer, but he was booked, he recommended the 3, after seeing what was being offered for the money I told my son I would do it. I wouldn't be comfortable sitting back and enjoying the wedding, unfortunately I am one of those photographers that "can't turn it off" I won't go to any sports events unless I'm working either.
 
I have found with my own wedding photography business that I attract the clients I want through referrals, (previous brides) the way I do my consultations, and the way I conduct business.
Here are some things to consider:
-Image and professionism is everything. ...

I agree with everything about your post, and I run my business in much the same way. I am fortunate that I have found a price-point that attracts the type of clients who understand you get what you pay for. My business is 80-90% referral.
 
Rookies are killing the business!
Nah! The rookies are essentially committing business suicide en-mass. That's why there is a stunning amount of 'churn' at the entry-level of the business.

pgriz explained it all pretty succinctly.
There have always been rookies.
The Internet just makes it easier to see/hear about all of them.

Few of the rookies are able to stay in business, even to just make some money on the side. The big irony is, the vast majority of those that think they are making money, on the side or otherwise, actually aren't making any money.

The rookies, like the lady who had done 77 weddings using basic entry-level gear, serve a market segment. In that market segment. The price is more important than the quality of the product.

No doubt, many of the rookie's customers discover that because they concentrated on price, they kind of shot themselves in the foot because the product they get is low quality.


 
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If "rookies" are getting in the way of your ability to conduct business, that's a much bigger commentary on your lack of ability than theirs.

I think it's also misguided to assume that someone who shoots with "less than pro" gear can't turn out professional results that clients are happy with. The reality is that many can...
 
What would you consider as a "Pro"?

Someone who does this full time, someone who has years of experience, someone who knows their equipment inside out? I am a professional web developer by trade and do the photography as a side business and hobby (see signature).

I have seen the same thing happen in the world of web development, anyone with a bit of spare time on their hand can now learn to develop a website with ease and even if they don't want to build from scratch there is software out there that will give them a good base to start from.

What stands out however is quality. Someone with years of experience will know what works well and looks good, they are able to fine tune their work to make it stand out above the crowd. I guess with todays photographic equipment being so good its easy for someone who is learning to develop reasonably good photographs.

The internet has also helped to drive down prices, with so many people being able to create similar photographic styles there is a large supply of photography and I guess the rules of supply and demand come into effect. I suppose one approach is to look for exclusivity in the work, try and take photographs that stand out in some shape or form.
 
If "rookies" are getting in the way of your ability to conduct business, that's a much bigger commentary on your lack of ability than theirs.

I think it's also misguided to assume that someone who shoots with "less than pro" gear can't turn out professional results that clients are happy with. The reality is that many can...

100% correct about the gear, it's been said on this forum and pretty much everywhere, it's the person holding the gear, not the gear. Entry level digital body and good glass can produce great quality images in the right hands.
 
If "rookies" are getting in the way of your ability to conduct business, that's a much bigger commentary on your lack of ability than theirs.

I think it's also misguided to assume that someone who shoots with "less than pro" gear can't turn out professional results that clients are happy with. The reality is that many can...

100% correct about the gear, it's been said on this forum and pretty much everywhere, it's the person holding the gear, not the gear. Entry level digital body and good glass can produce great quality images in the right hands.

Completely agree, don't forget as well that taking the photograph in some instances is only the beginning. Post production work in Photoshop will only help to enhance the image even further. If you can master some of those skills as well you can create some nice artwork.
 

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