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Shooting in P mode

There simply is no choice but to learn the basics first.
Do you want the background in focus or out. Ok...How do I do that?
Do I want to stop or enhance the feeling of speed...How do I do that?
My snow looks like an 18% gray blanket...Why and how do I fix it?

THEN...when you make any of these changes, you need to know how it will affect the other settings.
I'm not sure how you can even begin to make an artistic photo without knowing the basics first
 
What's the fun or the reason for training people to be mediocre clones rather than saying, 'forget this technical crap for a while and get some spontaneity and interest and excitement.'?

The problem is that you're attacking this the wrong way. You can't change this element by forcing people to teach art first. Those beginners need those basic lessons and they need the skills to be able to produce that "boring dull photo" because only then do they have the operational control over the tool to be able to then be introduced to the concepts of choice and creativity. It's at that point where you can step in and start to teach them to unlock their creative side and to expand into learning artistic concepts and theories as well as how to express their own artistic direction.

In the end no one is denying that we need more such intermediate discussions on the site. Heck I'm all for and would love more of them to appear (it is my own weakest area). The thing is I'm not going to force those lessons upon the beginner. It's the intermediate who needs those lessons and those expansions upon their thought. If you want to take things in that direction then the BEST and ONLY way is to step up and start giving that kind of critique to the right kind of photographer. Only once people who are in the know start giving to those in the not can the site advance its level of critique level
 
If I am talking to an Really Excellent, Very Experienced Artist who does phenomenal paintings or sculpture (whatever media), but has never used a camera... and they have an image in their head of a wonderful shot that they want to capture....

I hand them my camera.....

Can they capture that image, with all of the nuances and such, that they are visualizing? Will Program or AUTO allow it? Unlikely!

But give them even six weeks of technical training on the camera... and maybe a crash course in how to achieve the lighting they want... and Voila!

But we aren't, in general, dealing with an experienced artist.
In general, we are dealing with people who don't know how to see things and instead of emphasizing what and how to parse what they are seeing, you want to substitute some mechanical way of dealing with it.

It's sort of interesting that you think I am dogmatic when you guys are really tied to the mechanical process.
Well, look at what you are seeing here - countless repetitive people poses with plastic smiles, captured with a flash in mid-rictus
They are essentially one photo, just change the heads.
And they get praise if the exposure is correct and the composition not too horrible and the focus pretty good - and all terribly boring

What's the fun or the reason for training people to be mediocre clones rather than saying, 'forget this technical crap for a while and get some spontaneity and interest and excitement.'?

That was sort of my point.. IF even a "Really Excellent, Very Experienced Artist" can't capture their "vision" without the technical skills..... how in HELL is a beginner with no training in ART or anything else going to do it? lol!
 
I suppose traveller's position is more expressionist, but in my world view (see what I did there) everything I don't like is modern.

I can only shake my head at this statement.
It's a bit passive aggressive by addressing me in the third party and startlingly inconsistent.

You use a modern camera with modern AF and modern exposure modes that captures on a digital sensor and exports to a computer and you edit with software that transforms bits into visual data yet you reject even thinking about an idea because it is 'modern'?

I'm just suggesting that we encourage beginning photographers to be less tied to a mechanical process and show them that there is thought and concept and intent in even the humblest shot.
The only thing less 'modern' than that is making piles of pretty pebbles.
 
Absolutely none of the technical elements means anything unless the image has some meaning or impact.
A perfect image technically may bring some satisfaction to the maker but it may be irrelevant to the viewer.

These beliefs (above) are about how to best train photographers really are aimed at training people to get images into a camera.

I think that there is more benefit to the art of photography in training people how to see images and then we can discuss how to get them into the camera.


I can see the angle you're taking but I think you're taking it more in the position of someone who wants to view great art rather than someone who wants to train photographers. The thing is if the site is about learning and furthering photographers then we are always going to focus upon training photographers. Part of that core training at its onset is learning the technical. Yes those technically perfect artistically dull photos are artistically boring - yes they will bore the heck out of someone who wants to view art. But those are just the kinds of photos beginners need to learn to take. They need to learn how to take them so that when they come to the artistic elements they can control the camera not be controlled and constrained by it and the "brain" inside the camera.
They also need to be able to control it from another aspect, self confidence. If they lack the self confidence in the tools that they have and in their own ability to control them it could very well give them a great underestimation of their own ability and also their potential. Indeed they might come to think that each scene; each situation can only be viewed in a very limited number of ways (or even a single way) because of the nature of how not having the experience to technically control the tool leaves them at the mercy of the cameras unchanging auto mind

and much of this is reflected on how people view a photo for C&C. whats one of the FIRST questions people ask when they start nitpicking a photo thats been posted? "what mode did you shoot in?" the answer varies as to the degree of the shooters knowledge, experience, or level of laziness for that particular shot. And when the Exif data is viewed, or the OP says it, and the answer is *GASP* the dreaded Program Mode...or even aperture or shutter priority, the topic almost always immediately shifts from actual C&C of the picture to "you need to learn to shoot manual!" now, neither I, nor anyone else here i think, is denying the sheer usefulness of learning how to use your camera in manual. However, I do think that as an amateur photographer, it matters less in the beginning HOW you took the shot, and more that you TOOK the shot. Like any hobby, dancing, painting, photography....as you advance from the just interested stages, into amateur, hobbyist, serious hobbyist, and so on, your level of knowledge should increase as well.
of course a Pro should know the technical aspects of their trade. that should be expected. and of course we should encourage all levels of photography enthusiasts to learn the exposure triangle, and how to control lighting...but it should be done from the photographers level, and their pace. not everyone has the same learning curve, and to think that everyone can read a book, or a website, and jump right in to pro level settings is unrealistic. when your kid paints you a picture at school, do you put it on your fridge and praise them? Or do you tell them how they should have scumbled more, or used more glazing, or less brush blending? People should be encouraged to branch out from whatever mode they are using when they have reached the limit of what that mode can do for them. they should WANT to move on to higher techniques because they have reached a plateau and have the desire to do more with the equipment they have, and are comfortable with using the "other" modes. NOT because someone online is telling them that using something besides manual mode is a cop out. I absolutely believe that if you want to be even remotely serious about photography, then you should learn to shoot in manual. I just think the way we sometimes go about "encouraging" that trend gets a little skewed, almost to the point of "manual mode fanaticism"
 
My snow looks like an 18% gray blanket...Why and how do I fix it?

Does it matter, as long it is well composed, and has a really interesting, properly placed (if underexposed, and probably fuzzy) subject? ;)
 
I suppose traveller's position is more expressionist, but in my world view (see what I did there) everything I don't like is modern.
You use a modern camera with modern AF and modern exposure modes that captures on a digital sensor and exports to a computer and you edit with software that transforms bits into visual data yet you reject even thinking about an idea because it is 'modern'?

uhm.... i think you missed the bus on that one, buddy.
 
Absolutely none of the technical elements means anything unless the image has some meaning or impact.
A perfect image technically may bring some satisfaction to the maker but it may be irrelevant to the viewer.

These beliefs (above) are about how to best train photographers really are aimed at training people to get images into a camera.

I think that there is more benefit to the art of photography in training people how to see images and then we can discuss how to get them into the camera.


I can see the angle you're taking but I think you're taking it more in the position of someone who wants to view great art rather than someone who wants to train photographers. The thing is if the site is about learning and furthering photographers then we are always going to focus upon training photographers. Part of that core training at its onset is learning the technical. Yes those technically perfect artistically dull photos are artistically boring - yes they will bore the heck out of someone who wants to view art. But those are just the kinds of photos beginners need to learn to take. They need to learn how to take them so that when they come to the artistic elements they can control the camera not be controlled and constrained by it and the "brain" inside the camera.
They also need to be able to control it from another aspect, self confidence. If they lack the self confidence in the tools that they have and in their own ability to control them it could very well give them a great underestimation of their own ability and also their potential. Indeed they might come to think that each scene; each situation can only be viewed in a very limited number of ways (or even a single way) because of the nature of how not having the experience to technically control the tool leaves them at the mercy of the cameras unchanging auto mind

and much of this is reflected on how people view a photo for C&C. whats one of the FIRST questions people ask when they start nitpicking a photo thats been posted? "what mode did you shoot in?" the answer varies as to the degree of the shooters knowledge, experience, or level of laziness for that particular shot. And when the Exif data is viewed, or the OP says it, and the answer is *GASP* the dreaded Program Mode...or even aperture or shutter priority, the topic almost always immediately shifts from actual C&C of the picture to "you need to learn to shoot manual!" now, neither I, nor anyone else here i think, is denying the sheer usefulness of learning how to use your camera in manual. However, I do think that as an amateur photographer, it matters less in the beginning HOW you took the shot, and more that you TOOK the shot. Like any hobby, dancing, painting, photography....as you advance from the just interested stages, into amateur, hobbyist, serious hobbyist, and so on, your level of knowledge should increase as well.
of course a Pro should know the technical aspects of their trade. that should be expected. and of course we should encourage all levels of photography enthusiasts to learn the exposure triangle, and how to control lighting...but it should be done from the photographers level, and their pace. not everyone has the same learning curve, and to think that everyone can read a book, or a website, and jump right in to pro level settings is unrealistic. when your kid paints you a picture at school, do you put it on your fridge and praise them? Or do you tell them how they should have scumbled more, or used more glazing, or less brush blending? People should be encouraged to branch out from whatever mode they are using when they have reached the limit of what that mode can do for them. they should WANT to move on to higher techniques because they have reached a plateau and have the desire to do more with the equipment they have, and are comfortable with using the "other" modes. NOT because someone online is telling them that using something besides manual mode is a cop out. I absolutely believe that if you want to be even remotely serious about photography, then you should learn to shoot in manual. I just think the way we sometimes go about "encouraging" that trend gets a little skewed, almost to the point of "manual mode fanaticism"

I skew my C&C's depending on the perceived "level" of the photographer.... Noobs get mostly technical..... experienced?? Depends on the shot, but I def look more at the "Artsy" side...
 
Most people are safe shooting in aperture or shutter priority mode so long as they show that they made it their choice and that they have control over the camera. The manual fanatics do tend to come out of the woodwork though if a person is showing that their choice of mode is based upon their ignorance of the controls rather than their understanding and choice.

I think it is right to encourage (not at a fanatic level) users to learn the manual controls. At the end of the day its all about giving them the power of choice with their photography. Pushing them to learn how the manual controls work frees them to choosing the right mode for their style and situation - just as arming them with the basic underlying principles of composition does.

I guess the problem is we don't have enough intermediate/advanced level photographers asking for critique on technically sound photos and getting artistic focus in the replies. This might have, in part, something to do with the fact that this is an internet forum and thus is more likely to have attracted those with a more natural technical focus in their life and craft. But I think it also highlights the fact that when people think of critique they think of technical. But it also highlights that the vast number of people specifically asking for critique on these forums are either very early beginners who need the technical instruction and advice first or they are not asking in their critique for an artistic direction (And things default to technical).
 
I can see the angle you're taking but I think you're taking it more in the position of someone who wants to view great art rather than someone who wants to train photographers. The thing is if the site is about learning and furthering photographers then we are always going to focus upon training photographers. Part of that core training at its onset is learning the technical. Yes those technically perfect artistically dull photos are artistically boring - yes they will bore the heck out of someone who wants to view art. But those are just the kinds of photos beginners need to learn to take. They need to learn how to take them so that when they come to the artistic elements they can control the camera not be controlled and constrained by it and the "brain" inside the camera.
They also need to be able to control it from another aspect, self confidence. If they lack the self confidence in the tools that they have and in their own ability to control them it could very well give them a great underestimation of their own ability and also their potential. Indeed they might come to think that each scene; each situation can only be viewed in a very limited number of ways (or even a single way) because of the nature of how not having the experience to technically control the tool leaves them at the mercy of the cameras unchanging auto mind

and much of this is reflected on how people view a photo for C&C. whats one of the FIRST questions people ask when they start nitpicking a photo thats been posted? "what mode did you shoot in?" the answer varies as to the degree of the shooters knowledge, experience, or level of laziness for that particular shot. And when the Exif data is viewed, or the OP says it, and the answer is *GASP* the dreaded Program Mode...or even aperture or shutter priority, the topic almost always immediately shifts from actual C&C of the picture to "you need to learn to shoot manual!" now, neither I, nor anyone else here i think, is denying the sheer usefulness of learning how to use your camera in manual. However, I do think that as an amateur photographer, it matters less in the beginning HOW you took the shot, and more that you TOOK the shot. Like any hobby, dancing, painting, photography....as you advance from the just interested stages, into amateur, hobbyist, serious hobbyist, and so on, your level of knowledge should increase as well.
of course a Pro should know the technical aspects of their trade. that should be expected. and of course we should encourage all levels of photography enthusiasts to learn the exposure triangle, and how to control lighting...but it should be done from the photographers level, and their pace. not everyone has the same learning curve, and to think that everyone can read a book, or a website, and jump right in to pro level settings is unrealistic. when your kid paints you a picture at school, do you put it on your fridge and praise them? Or do you tell them how they should have scumbled more, or used more glazing, or less brush blending? People should be encouraged to branch out from whatever mode they are using when they have reached the limit of what that mode can do for them. they should WANT to move on to higher techniques because they have reached a plateau and have the desire to do more with the equipment they have, and are comfortable with using the "other" modes. NOT because someone online is telling them that using something besides manual mode is a cop out. I absolutely believe that if you want to be even remotely serious about photography, then you should learn to shoot in manual. I just think the way we sometimes go about "encouraging" that trend gets a little skewed, almost to the point of "manual mode fanaticism"

I skew my C&C's depending on the perceived "level" of the photographer.... Noobs get mostly technical..... experienced?? Depends on the shot, but I def look more at the "Artsy" side...

and I agree with you there...the amateur probably needs more technical assistance than the experienced shooter, whereas the experienced shooter probably has the technical basics down already, and is just fine tuning the "craft" to whatever look they are trying to achieve.
 
My snow looks like an 18% gray blanket...Why and how do I fix it?

Does it matter, as long it is well composed, and has a really interesting, properly placed (if underexposed, and probably fuzzy) subject? ;)

Yeah, nothing says Christmas like an 18% snowman on the 3rds grid with a perfectly focused trash truck in the background.
 

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