Tecnhnical HELP big time...

[reg]

Those starting set ups for shutter speed and f-stop are not very good, and in fact really bad. Resulting pics will look like cheap snapshoots.

[...]

(2) ETTL mitigates hand held and subject movement eventhough the shutter speed is very slow

First statement made me giggle a bit.

2) ETTL is a technology for flash metering, and has nothing to do with subject movement. The flash of light itself does it.

 

[SilverGlow]

First statement made me giggle a bit.

2) ETTL is a technology for flash metering, and has nothing to do with subject movement. The flash of light itself does it.

You split hairs, as we have said the same thing.

E-TTL will expose for the subject, meaning when set up properly will RESULT in a fast enough flash which will mitigate hand movement and subject movement in most cases.

So you see, E-TTL has EVERYTHING to do with providing a fast enough light supply for most requirements.

Now you can stop laughing ;-)

 

[JerryPH]

I will echo a few sentiments:

- Learn how to use your equipment. www.strobist.com is an excellent source for info. If lighting is used, off camera lighting is the best and ONLY way to go for me for 75% of the circumstances I come across.

- Fast lenses with huge apertures (F/1.8 or faster), make a difference if you use a good camera that has low noise at high ISO settings. I own the 85mm F/1.4 Nikkor lens and can take basically candle lit rooms at ISO 1600 and 1/60th and still get properly exposed pictures (creatively AND technically). If I am allowed to use an off camera flash, I can still set it to something low like 1/8th, bounce it off the ceiling, light near all the room and increase shutter speed to 1/125th to totally remove any motion blur of people walking, etc...

- If you get noise, there is some incredible software out there to remove it. Imagnomics rules by far here, IMHO. I can get my ISO 1600 shots to look as clean as my ISO 200 shots using my D200.

- Practice, practice, practice! I go to low/poorly lit churches OFTEN to get my technique and knowledge down pat. It is not even a real challenge for me anymore.

ISO 800, F/1.4, 1/50th of a second:
​

 

[Alleh Lindquist]

Yes www.strobist.com will teach you how to use your flash effectively in many situations.

 

[SilverGlow]

I will echo a few sentiments:

- Learn how to use your equipment. www.strobist.com is an excellent source for info. If lighting is used, off camera lighting is the best and ONLY way to go for me for 75% of the circumstances I come across.

- Fast lenses with huge apertures (F/1.8 or faster), make a difference if you use a good camera that has low noise at high ISO settings. I own the 85mm F/1.4 Nikkor lens and can take basically candle lit rooms at ISO 1600 and 1/60th and still get properly exposed pictures (creatively AND technically). If I am allowed to use an off camera flash, I can still set it to something low like 1/8th, bounce it off the ceiling, light near all the room and increase shutter speed to 1/125th to totally remove any motion blur of people walking, etc...

- If you get noise, there is some incredible software out there to remove it. Imagnomics rules by far here, IMHO. I can get my ISO 1600 shots to look as clean as my ISO 200 shots using my D200.

- Practice, practice, practice! I go to low/poorly lit churches OFTEN to get my technique and knowledge down pat. It is not even a real challenge for me anymore.

ISO 800, F/1.4, 1/50th of a second:​

1/125 with a flash is way too fast I think for dark places (usually). ISO more then 800 way too fast. If you have a flash and place the body in manual mode, then I would suggest a much slower shutter speed, and ISO: 1/20s and ISO 400....remember, the flash will stop people's motion and your hand holding movements. If there still is a bit of blur, you can go speed up the shutter time 1/2 or full stop, per the circumstances. In this way, the body exposes the background and the flash the foreground. Let the flash stop motion, and don't think it's just about a fast shutter speed for that....again, 1/125 is way too fast, and only forces one up to the too high ISO's.

The shot you have above could have been done in the manner I suggested as 1/50s might be too fast IMHO. The benefits would be much lower ISO to insure the least amount of noise possible; and not that I think your shot is too noisy, by the way. I shot St. Peter's cathedral in Rome in this manner, and my two E-TTL flashes lit up the entire church, up to the ceilings...my f-stop was F5.6, ISO 400, and shutter speed was 1/15s...all hand held too. Body in manual, flashes in full auto so they got controlled by the camera's E-TTL logic.

 

[rubbertree]

slight hijack in this wonderful thread...
When you all say "off camera flash" do you mean using a flash other than the built in one on the camera to be used on the hot shoe or do you mean using a flash and holding it away from the camera, connected by a cord?
Sorry for the hijack, just want to clarify. I haven't used a flash yet (besides the camera's own flash) and plan to purchase the SB-600 or 800 soon.

 

[JerryPH]

1/125 with a flash is way too fast I think for dark places (usually). ISO more then 800 way too fast.

Huh?? There is NO SUCH ANIMAL as "too fast". You use the settings that get you the shot. Sometimes 1/250th (my maximum sync speed) is not fast enough for my needs, other times, 1/30th is too fast as I want to capture more background while still using a flash. How can you just set one shutter speed and assume that this will be good for any and every situation?

BTW, did you know that shutter speed, when you are using a flash does near nothing to your main lit subject? It *does* affect your background, though... as the slower the shutter speed is, the more the ambient light bleeds into the picture. Your main lit subject will always look identical (if you know how to meter properly. )

ISO... Saying over 800 is too much is an obvious sign of someone lacking a little real life experience in low light situations where flashes are impractical. There are times that nothing under ISO 1600 was enough for my needs!

Many people fear high ISO noise. I say... BAH! Do what it takes to get the shot and use noise reduction software to make it clear (or pick up a D700 or D3... lol).

An example of some shots using ISO 1600:

 

[manaheim]

Wow. Look at that bride's hair...

Silver... 1/15th and 1/20th second hand-held??? That's gonna be blurry. I dunno. Many of your suggestions had me cocking my eyebrow up like Mr. Spock.

 

[Joves]

slight hijack in this wonderful thread...
When you all say "off camera flash" do you mean using a flash other than the built in one on the camera to be used on the hot shoe or do you mean using a flash and holding it away from the camera, connected by a cord?
Sorry for the hijack, just want to clarify. I haven't used a flash yet (besides the camera's own flash) and plan to purchase the SB-600 or 800 soon.

With your D80 you can shoot off camera in the Commander Mode, it will use you onboard flash as the trigger or, you can buy triggers for your flash off camera or, you can have it tethered to the camera off camera. Jerry did a nice little modification to some triggers to boost the range alot. You will have to search for it though. Also hit up the strobist site, it will be one of the best palces for you to learn. There is alot of ghetto set ups there for the cheap and, people without the cash to buy lots of equipment.

 

[SilverGlow]

Huh?? There is NO SUCH ANIMAL as "too fast". You use the settings that get you the shot. Sometimes 1/250th (my maximum sync speed) is not fast enough for my needs, other times, 1/30th is too fast as I want to capture more background while still using a flash. How can you just set one shutter speed and assume that this will be good for any and every situation?

BTW, did you know that shutter speed, when you are using a flash does near nothing to your main lit subject? It *does* affect your background, though... as the slower the shutter speed is, the more the ambient light bleeds into the picture. Your main lit subject will always look identical (if you know how to meter properly. )

ISO... Saying over 800 is too much is an obvious sign of someone lacking a little real life experience in low light situations where flashes are impractical. There are times that nothing under ISO 1600 was enough for my needs!

Many people fear high ISO noise. I say... BAH! Do what it takes to get the shot and use noise reduction software to make it clear (or pick up a D700 or D3... lol).

An example of some shots using ISO 1600:

Your the forum no at all. It took me about 3 days of reading your bully type posts to figure that out. You lack experience and know how, and your posts show it. I am going to love to give you a dose of your own medicine. That means to rebuttal your post, then insult the poster you disagree with...that your MO, and so lets see if you like your own medicine, ok?

For one thing, a true pro knows how to drag the shutter. That means he shoots indoor shots at night at ISO 400 to mitigate noise the best. Sure your camera provides clean ISO 800 or 1600 but ISO 400 is much cleaner.

In addition to your ignorance, you fail to understand that once you are in a room, you IN FACT can use the same exact settings for all the shots, baring special rare circumstances. This is because iTTL or E-TTL (whatever your camera maker's call their TTL logic) will dyamically adjust the flash power automatically. Sure from time to time you might need to add EC to the body for the background or EC to the flash for the foreground, but really all the photog has to do is worry primarily about composing, and not much about changing settings once he's set them for a particular venue/room/lighting.

Only an ignorant nubee would flash shots indoors at ISO 1600 if he doesn't need to do so. I would suggest you step up and learn how to shoot in a way that utilizes your camera maker's flash logic, call it E-TTL, or iTTL or just TTL, maker depending but they all have it. Now set the body to manual, flash to full auto so that it takes advantage of your camera maker's flash logic. Now set the f-stop for required depth-of-field, ISO at 400, and ON, NOT the rediculeous 1600 for godssake, then shutter starting at 1/20s and go faster or slower as required. And yes, like thousands of other wedding pros have found, 1/20s shutter speed is not too slow because the flash will freeze hand held and subject movement. I often find 1/15s to be fine too...THE FLASH FREEZES MOVEMENT WITH VERY SLOW SHUTTER SPEEDS....

I've shot at least 300 weddings using this flashing strategy and it works great. Nearly all my weddings are inside very dark churchs AND I HAVE NEVER HAD TO USE AN ISO FASTER THEN 400. EVER.

So before you start bullying people around and acting like a no-at-all, first consider that you really don't know as much as you think.

 

[manaheim]

^^^ wow. Way to be friendly and welcome to the forums.

TBH, it hadn't occurred to me that the flash would freeze motion on a slow exposure. Interesting idea. I'll have to try it, though I suspect if the room were reasonably lit it would blur background elements and freeze the subject.

Of course, when using a flash I don't quite know why you would NEED to do 1/20th a second... in fact, when using a flash I can't really think of a reason why I would use anything other than the lowest native ISO my camera can use.

Of course it's kinda too bad that your commentary is muddied up by the venemous attack on Jerry. Kinda seems not the best way to introduce yourself to the TPF community, but hey... whatever works for ya'. Thanks for the interesting ideas, regardless.

 

[Flash Harry]

At least he/she is correct, Jerrry has often stated things which are pretty much off the mark, fact is you can pretty much use any shutter speed that is slower than flash sync speed but not higher, photography is all about light, light travels at 186000 or so miles per second, if you expose correctly and that light hits your subject you will freeze motion, end of. H

 

[ksmattfish]

"Photography appears to be an easy activity; in fact it is a varied and ambiguous process in which the only common denominator among its practitioners is in the instrument." -Henri Cartier-Bresson

There is no single right way. Everyone has to figure out what works for them.

I use the same set-up as in the original post. If the Canon 24-70 f/2.8 is too heavy try a Tamron 28-75 f/2.8. It's lighter, and even a bit sharper at f/2.8. It doesn't have the tank-like build of the Canon L, but then again it's 1/3rd the price.

My typical settings in dimly lit rooms would be ISO 1600 @ f/4 @ 1/30th, and bounce the flash (usually with a white index card rubber banded to the flash). Flash comp needs to be adjusted for subject tonality (-2/3ish for guys in black tuxes, +2/3ish for brides in white, etc...). I will also usually have Av set to f/4 and -1 exposure comp. Then I can switch back and forth between 1/30th, which is a fairly safe hand held speed for me at that focal length range (when using a flash), and dragging the shutter.

F/2.8 is plenty enough DOF for a couple, as long as you pay attention to their positioning. If I've got a prime lens on I'm usually at f/1.8 to f/2.8. I prefer to go with f/3.2 to f/4 with zooms because sharpness increases noticeably stopped down a few clicks.

The 5D does fantastic quality at high ISOs. I shoot raw, and my ISO 1600 shots look great with the default color noise reduction Adobe Camera Raw sets, and no other noise reduction. I've been shooting ISO 3200 and 6400, and using Noiseware Pro in the processing, and it still looks pretty good. My experience with noise is that it's better to use a higher ISO than underexpose a lower ISO. Offensive noise is mostly about underexposure and over sharpening.

 

[manaheim]

Just doing a bit of research, I think I better understand this concept of dragging the shutter. It makes total sense...

however... I have found plenty of evidence to indicate that you do get motion blur on your background (and you may get fringing on your primary subjects as well) on the longer shutter times... are those of you who do this merely accepting the results of this effect?

I'm starting to wonder, too... are there occasionally benefits to turning off TTL metering on the flash?

EDIT: Actually now that I re-read Jerry's post, I see he was talking about dragging the shutter himself. Once again, I see Jerry is unreasonably skewered for trying to help. Jerry, I hope you just ignore that and move on. For what it's worth, I'm learning some stuff from this thread so I appreciate the discourse regardless of the edge.

 

[ksmattfish]

... are those of you who do this merely accepting the results of this effect?

Sure, because it's better than accepting the technical impositions of a high shutter speed in low light, close quarters. I hate dark backgrounds that make rooms look like caves. If I can only have one or the other, to my eye good light trumps good sharpness in most situations.

Here's 1/15 @ f/4 @ ISO 3200. I think the blur is tolerable, and these guys are bouncing around a lot more than most of my wedding subjects.

And trying to use shutter drag creatively