The Decisive Moment - Ideas please

[Vince.1551]

Well said Lew


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[photoguy99]

The fact that I do not give critique, do not post photos online, and do not demonstrate editing technique is irrelevant to the verifiable fact that I know a great deal more about HCB and the meaning of the phrase The Decisive Moment than many other contributors to this thread.

Verifying it is work, because the internet is awash in wrongness in this case. A simple Google search won't work. You've actually got to dig, and to challenge your own preconceptions.

Me posting some photos would not change anyone's mind. The very idea is ludicrous. You wish me to post photos so that you can judge them as inferior to your own, and then make the violently illogical leap that therefore you are right and that offensive fellow is wrong. Phew. Comfortable world-view restored.

Not playing.

 

[Gary A.]

I cannot think of a good reason not to post one's images in a photography forum. While I recognize that the ability to capture an exceptional image has nothing to do with photographic knowledge ... I, for one, would place greater currency in a person's opinion and judgement, if they had a boatload of exceptional photographs than if all they had was mediocre images.

 

[Derrel]

SO...WHAT ABOUT THE EARLY HCB book, the collection of his photographs, the book with the title that basically translated to "Photos taken on the run"? I assume that HCB had at least some "say" in the title of his first published book of photographs, and that he saw himself as a man who shot, "on the run" back in the era when the 4x5 press camera and even the 12-shot 120 rollfilm twin-lens reflex cameras, and flashbulbs, were pretty much the normal "pro type gear".

I am not an expert on HCB, but I do know that "the decisive moment," has been associated with him, but I am wondering if that might not just have been a translation error, something that came about due to the honest mistakes of others, press and reporters and writers, and which snowballed and grew on its own, the way urban legends and folklore do, and if perhaps what HCB thought he was doing was something ELSE, entirely, at least for his first 20 years or so of working?

HCB's contact sheets for some very famous shots have been revealed; looking at them convinced me that he was in most cases, more into persevering, rather than one-shot-lucky, as so many people assume. He "worked" regular street situations, relying on the Leica's small size and long rolls of film, rather than shooting one, two, or three sheets of film with a HUGE graphic 4x5 sheet-film camera...his contacts show a lot of utter CRAP surrounding famous shots...

 

[The_Traveler]

The fact that I do not give critique, do not post photos online, and do not demonstrate editing technique is irrelevant to the verifiable fact that I know a great deal more about HCB and the meaning of the phrase The Decisive Moment than many other contributors to this thread.

Verifying it is work, because the internet is awash in wrongness in this case. A simple Google search won't work. You've actually got to dig, and to challenge your own preconceptions.

Me posting some photos would not change anyone's mind. The very idea is ludicrous. You wish me to post photos so that you can judge them as inferior to your own, and then make the violently illogical leap that therefore you are right and that offensive fellow is wrong. Phew. Comfortable world-view restored.

Not playing.

What we want is a discussion among community 'friends' and peers relieved by the occasional jocularity.
What would happen if you participated by posting and critiquing is that you would actually be contributing to the worth of the site and you would be seen as accepting the culture here and adding worth.
As it is you seem to want to be the visiting expert, enlightening the masses.
To be honest, if I wanted expertise, I would go to people I know and/or respect.
For fun and discussion, I'll stay here with people that don't think themselves better or smarter than me or, if they do, respect me enough not to show it.

 

[photoguy99]

Always the comedian, eh, Lew? That was pretty good, I admit.

Since I've been accused of excessive brevity, I will take that as license to indulge myself. Whatever you want to call it, HCB was doing a particular thing. What was that thing?

The money quote we've seen a few times in this thread:

"To me, photography is the simultaneous recognition [...] of the significance of an event as well as of a precise organization of forms which give that event its proper expression."

What could he mean be the last bit? You can simply ask around people who understand this stuff. Or you can work it out yourself. As follows.

The key elements are these:

• Henri was trained as a painter in the early 20th century
• He had, therefore, a grasp on Victorian ideas of composition.
• He was a bit of a surrealist.
• He loved a good visual joke.

These are facts. You can probably get this off Wikipedia. If you wish these ideas even a little you'll stay to see them leaping out of the frame in HCB's photos. He was not subtle. It's all there in big obvious chunks.

So his conception of the configuration of forms that give an event its proper expression was, it is reasonable to guess, painterly, given his training. The moment at which you press the shutter is NOT necessarily:

• The moment before the bomb explodes
• The moment the man kisses the girl
• The moment the girl turns and leaves him forever
• Etc

Indeed there is no particular reason that the moment of the shutter press should be a particularly special moment for the people in the scene. Ten seconds earlier, a minute later, might well be all the same to them, or even a moment of greater import.

No. The moment you press the shutter is the moment during which the frame contains a painting of boys at play, of a nation at war, of a man behind a train station. The moment is essentially graphical, not human.

Indeed, if you photograph the moment of greatest human weight, you have a photograph of an instant. You are less likely to have a photograph which expresses the event as a whole, since your photo is so firmly about the instant. It's not a picture of a romance, it's a picture of a kiss. It's not a photo of boys at play, it's a photo of a boy falling.

This is all obvious once you have the background in Victorian composition and in surrealism, once you look at the photos.

Or, as I say, go ask an expert.

The common misconception is the the decisive moment is the human moment. It is not. It is a graphical moment. It's about forms and their expression.

 

[gsgary]

Just been going through my shots from the weekend and got this decisive moment a bit like HCB's but my staircase is the woods

 

[The_Traveler]

Always the comedian, eh, Lew? That was pretty good, I admit.

Since I've been accused of excessive brevity, I will take that as license to indulge myself. Whatever you want to call it, HCB was doing a particular thing. What was that thing?

The money quote we've seen a few times in this thread:

"To me, photography is the simultaneous recognition [...] of the significance of an event as well as of a precise organization of forms which give that event its proper expression."

What could he mean be the last bit? You can simply ask around people who understand this stuff. Or you can work it out yourself. As follows.

The key elements are these:

• Henri was trained as a painter in the early 20th century
• He had, therefore, a grasp on Victorian ideas of composition.
• He was a bit of a surrealist.
• He loved a good visual joke.

These are facts. You can probably get this off Wikipedia. If you wish these ideas even a little you'll stay to see them leaping out of the frame in HCB's photos. He was not subtle. It's all there in big obvious chunks.

So his conception of the configuration of forms that give an event its proper expression was, it is reasonable to guess, painterly, given his training. The moment at which you press the shutter is NOT necessarily:

• The moment before the bomb explodes
• The moment the man kisses the girl
• The moment the girl turns and leaves him forever
• Etc

Indeed there is no particular reason that the moment of the shutter press should be a particularly special moment for the people in the scene. Ten seconds earlier, a minute later, might well be all the same to them, or even a moment of greater import.

No. The moment you press the shutter is the moment during which the frame contains a painting of boys at play, of a nation at war, of a man behind a train station. The moment is essentially graphical, not human.

Indeed, if you photograph the moment of greatest human weight, you have a photograph of an instant. You are less likely to have a photograph which expresses the event as a whole, since your photo is so firmly about the instant. It's not a picture of a romance, it's a picture of a kiss. It's not a photo of boys at play, it's a photo of a boy falling.

This is all obvious once you have the background in Victorian composition and in surrealism, once you look at the photos.

Or, as I say, go ask an expert.

The common misconception is the the decisive moment is the human moment. It is not. It is a graphical moment. It's about forms and their expression.

Thanks for the effort but you've chosen to stay out of the game.

 

[photoguy99]

Have I just been excommunicated by the Pope of TPF? oh dear.

 

[Gary A.]

Have I just been excommunicated by the Pope of TPF? oh dear.

Yeah, make fun of Lew. At least Lew posts his images. That takes a lot more balls than what I've seen from you.

If you're such a know-it-all ... and we are such schleps ... show us some images. Show us how to walk-the-walk ... show us how to apply all that stuff you talk about into something real. I believe that most of us, are here to learn and share. So how about some sharing. Or are you just all talk ...

 

[photoguy99]

What? I've been over this. You're just ranting at this point. Consider taking a break and a few deep breaths.

I'm talking about what a phrase means. There's no 'turning that in to something'.
If I were explaining 'protein folding' would you want to see me bake a cake?

 

[Gary A.]

Avoiding all my points by describing my post as a rant, fools no one.

I just review the six pages of this thread. While you have made some very poignant and thought provoking statements, nowhere did I discover any reason(s) posted by you explaining why you do not post your images.

We're not discussing protein folding. We're discussing photography and in particular why you do not you show examples of your photographic work on a photographic forum. You come off as condescending and arrogant. I think many of us here are curious about the roots of your arrogance. Do you have a portfolio of exceptional images ... by comparison are we mere children with our photographic skills? Show us some images which will not only affirm that your opinion comes from expertise but also provide direct guidance for improving our images.

A couple more points, The Decisive Moment is a phrase attributed to Henri Cartier-Bresson. You stated that Henri was pursuing form primarily not critical timing. But over time that phase has come to mean capturing that split second of when everything comes together. While you can argue that Henri meant when all the forms are just right ... in todays world and most likely for the challenge presented to the OP, The Decisive Moment means timing, when everything comes together for that instant in time. Please correct me if I misunderstood your statements.

You also stated that Decisive Moment = Street in Henri parlay. I tend to agree with you that that is entirely probably. So I shall post some examples of my Street photography and I challenge to to post images of your Street photography and we'll discuss Henri, Street, The Decisive Moment and yours and my images. As you seem to have much historical expertise regarding Henri Cartier-Bresson ... I will do the best I can to match a similar level of technology. My images will be 35mm format, Tri-X, all mechanical camera.

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On the flip side, you use the internet according to you code and as such, who am I and we to challenge that code. I get that. And while I understand where you are coming from from ... I don't completely agree with that position.

Gary

PS- I don't see how baking a cake has any relevance to protein folding. (I have nothing against cakes.) I find protein folding quite remarkable and the ability to call and string particular proteins into long sequences in a timely fashion, is fascinating.
G

 

[The_Traveler]

What? I've been over this. You're just ranting at this point. Consider taking a break and a few deep breaths.

I'm talking about what a phrase means. There's no 'turning that in to something'.
If I were explaining 'protein folding' would you want to see me bake a cake?

I think perhaps you're misunderstanding - intentionally or not.

No one cares about what you actually say, I think it's the point that you come across as quite a bit of a bit know-it-all and condescending and your reasons why you don't post and critique insinuate that you are just past or above the need for all that.

You want to stand on the sidelines and talk big about strategy without ever taking part in the game and what you are getting now is the push back.
We've had people like that here before and, to be honest, they had exactly the same reasons.

Perhaps you were/are a fantastic photographer and know a great deal, but if BS is all you are willing to contribute, well BS is 10 cents a truckload and we're pretty much all full up here.

 

[photoguy99]

Gary A, if you want to know why I don't post pictures online, PM me. I've talked about it before, but it's wildly off topic and I'm not going to discuss it here.

I never said, or at any rate intended to say, that HCB didn't pursue critical timing. Such a statement would be absurd and if I did make it through some misphrasing or a typo, I take it back.

Lew, I think you're actually a pretty OK guy, but in the first place you of all people calling me out for being a pompous ass is hilarity itself (we're BOTH pompous asses, after all) and in the second place I don't care how you think the game should be played. I got my ideas and you got yours.

 

[PhotoTurtle]

I didn't mean to start an argument. What my teacher is looking for are photos that capture a moment that is in flux.

With landscape pictures I could take a photo of the landscape and tomorrow another person could take a picture of the landscape and although there might be some subtle changes, it will still be the same landscape. A picture of the White House taken by me or by any other person on just about any given day, its still going to be the White House.

With something that's in a state of flux or movement, if you don't take the photo at the right time, you miss the photo. The photo will not be the same five minutes from now, sometimes not even five seconds from now.

That's the essence of what my teacher is trying to get us to capture on film. Since its not digital, it is a bit trickier since we won't know if we caught that moment until we develop the film.