To ask or not?

digital flower · Mar 22, 2006

Lol999 said:
Then all hell let's loose. One woman objects strongly

You should have snapped her picture then :wink:

JohnMF · Mar 22, 2006

Like someone mentioned above. I think because you've been trying to take them in what looks like a shady manner, that it's made people responed defensively straight away

next time maybe you can try one of these 'discreet' camera hats. Like homer

hammy · Mar 22, 2006

Put their shoes on your feet. If you were out to lunch with your spouse, kids, parents, whoever. You see some guy hiding his camera on the table sneaking photos. You find out he has taken some of you, would you be upset?

No.

I guess it just depends on the person. Personally, if some lady blew up in my face and demanded my film, I'd point the camera at her, take another picture (talk about candid, nice surprised ****ed off look on her face) and then walk out. But that's just me.

Unimaxium · Mar 22, 2006

A problem arises in the fact that most people, once they know their picture is being taken, freeze up and pose for the camera, which can ruin the whole candid thing. If you go up to someone and ask permission first, then you might not get the shot you want. But if you don't ask, they might get mad. 'Tis a dilemma indeed.

emo · Mar 22, 2006

if you ask permission to the subject, is it still a candid shot?? as long as they are in a public place, take a snap..

Peanuts · Mar 22, 2006

Perhaps next time take a friend in with you, snap a few pictures of them reading and such, then when you notice other people start noticing, if you can get eye contact, show them the camera, smile, and if they smile back, it is generally a good sign they will allow their picture to be taken. It doesn't necessarily mean you have to take a picture right away, as someone else said "it wouldn't be candid" wait 5-10 min. then 'discretely' grab a shot or two.

Rahb · Mar 23, 2006

Ok, morals, rights, laws.....all good points. He wanted candid shots....this has become difficult as people have shown.

If you ask me....the best Idea I saw was the person mentioning to take pictures of many things openly...and ignore those of "posed" individuals. Maybe even take their picture, but don't use it.. spend some time there taking pictures of the product, the store front, the tables, the chairs. Obviously the owner will then be unhappy if you have not notified and asked permission.

The point is, you CAN take pictures candidly without looking like you are a Privat Investigator. If I walk into a shop and see a person taking pictures of everything, I wouldn't think tiwce i I happened to be in a shot or too. I would move on with my day. If busy body becky decides to demand yout o stop let her know that you are using it as a hobby and are just trying to improve your skill, then let her know you have the owners permission and that you will not take any more pictures of her if she does not wish.

It's kind of the whole "deer blind" strategy. you place the feeder there....let it sit a few months....let them get used to seeing it and feeding from ti...then you place your blind out there, let them get used to that. maybe before the season starts you visit the blinda few times and spend some time in it. things become a routing for them and before you know it....WHAM they didn't have their guard up and you got your shot

(side note I do not hunt, and have never shot a dear myself, my uncles and co-workers are CONSTANTLY ranting about this, but I just don't have the money or desire for the hobby)

that's my 2 cents

DepthAfield · Mar 23, 2006

There was a great article in the March 06 issue of Popular Photography & Imaging concerning this very subject. Essentially, what the article suggested was:

1. Introduce yourself to your desired subject. Inform him/her that you are a student of photography, and would very much like to take their picture. Offer to provide him/her with either a print or emailed copy of the image(s) taken.
2. Make the experience fun for both subject and photographer.
3. Have the subject sign a model release
4. Communication is key.

Ill have to admit, if someone were taking clandestine 007 style photos of me, Id probably freak out as well.

Lol999 · Mar 23, 2006

The irony is the camera was in plain view the whole time. Out in the open on the table and no-one reacted to it,s prescense. Never once did I raise it to my eye, I merely "aimed" and let the shutter go, the base of the camera was on the table the whole time.

Lol

Torus34 · Mar 23, 2006

"Street" photography can include fewer problems given the luxury of time. It's possible to function in a completely legal and ethical manner.

I'll be photographing a Latino immigrant community near my home beginning this summer. My 'goal' is a series of posed/unposed prints -- a documentary of sorts -- of the street life of the neighborhood. Complicating this are the facts that some of the people may be undocumented and I'm not exactly bilingual.

My approach will be based on the near invisibility of the familiar. The first step is to be sure that I'm welcome in the area. This means lots of free informal portraits. The first few are critical -- they must be good. I may also pass out a few disposable cameras.

After that, if I'm around often enough, I'll become a fixture like a lamppost. I can then work on fleshing out my project. Incidentally, I'll be keeping my gear to an absolute minimum at first. I use B&W in 35mm and 6x6 rigs.

cbay · Mar 23, 2006

Difficult Subject, but it may have just shocked the people that someone was taking pictures. Next time just tell the owner and then they can deal with problems as if they agree and the people are over 16 they cannot do anything about it as you are taking pictures on the owners property and he has said "Yes" At least i believe thats how it works, carry on. No real harm done.

ksmattfish · Mar 23, 2006

Lot's of good info and links to more resources on photographers' rights here.

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/andrewkantor/2005-12-29-camera-laws_x.htm

While someone may be able to argue that what Lol999 did isn't polite (not asking permission), in the USA it's perfectly legal.

EDIT: Just noticed that Lol999 isn't in the USA, so I don't know what the laws are there.

Oldfireguy · Mar 23, 2006

"You can take any photo that does not intrude upon or invade the privacy of a person, if that person has a reasonable expectation of privacy."

Ksmattfish great post and good information but how does the above statement fall into an eating establishment?

"Examples of places that are traditionally considered public are streets,
sidewalks, and public parks."

Yet the author goes on to site shopping malls as an example which would include places to eat. Has me curious enough to do some more research. He also cites some examples that I would have stayed away from.

Thanks for the information.

ksmattfish · Mar 23, 2006

fredcwdoc said:
"You can take any photo that does not intrude upon or invade the privacy of a person, if that person has a reasonable expectation of privacy."

Ksmattfish great post and good information but how does the above statement fall into an eating establishment?

I'm sure a good lawyer could turn it anyway they want, but I assume that if someone is eating in a public restaurant at an open table that they can't have much reasonable expectation of privacy as far as line of sight goes. If people can look at you, why can't they take a photo? If they want real privacy while eating go to a private residence or private club. On the other hand I assume most restaurant management would back the patrons complaining about being photographed, and ask the photographer to stop or leave.

The photographer's behavior may have something to do with it too. The article seems to suggest that the court may look differently at a photog who walks up and openly photographs someone vs. a sneaky photog, hidden with a telephoto lens.

What can you do? Many people are not comfortable being photographed even when they are the ones asking to have the photos taken. There will always be someone willing to get excited about it. These days the reaction has become more common. The technology has got people spooked; anyone with a digi-cam could be a terrorist planning their next strike, a perv trying to get up-skirt shots, etc...

I always try to ask permission. Sometimes it's just not feasible. Then I try to be as open as possible. Ironically, the only people that have ever confronted me about taking their picture were never in the photographs I took. I think I get a different reaction when I'm using vintage gear compared to when using anything modern looking. People aren't as threatened with the old cameras; maybe it reminds them of grandad, or they think the camera is too old to take a decent photo.

Edit: And legal or not, sometime photographers get their butts kicked.

Lol999 · Mar 24, 2006

For the UK guys here's a link to a useful resource. It's written by a lecturer in law who is also a photographer http://www.sirimo.co.uk/ukpr.php

Reading it, all ethics aside, I did nothing wrong. I plan to have a copy in my bag to hand to anyone getting stroppy in future with the relevant bits highlighted.

Cheers, Lol