What should be expected from a second shooter?

[Overread]

I think the key here is that you've both very different ways of operating; he's clearly working with a minimal shoot scale; getting a handful of well timed and well taken photos; whilst you're taking a wider variety of photos through the game. I have no idea of his background, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's had a strong film photography background which has carried over into his digital shooting and workflow.

That said the difference between you doesn't appear to be the product (you like the product) its the volume. That could be a matter of skill, or it could be a difference in how you've both approached the sport and the requirements for the shoot. It could be that a talk with him about how you work and how he could adapt his method could result in him providing a more ideal amount of production for you.

It could also be that is he is over his head - a photographer able to get a handful of good photos from a sporting event, but unable to currently capture a larger volume of higher grade work during the game.

 

[Steve5D]

I wasn't expecting him to be shooting the same quality or style as me, based on my experience with covering a lot of different sports, but should I have at least expected more?

Assuming you had that conversation with him, yeah.

If you'd have hired me, you'd have told me to stop shooting. I shoot a lot. Should you expect that from everyone? Maybe, maybe not, but I do think 13 images is probably a bit shy...

 

[DiskoJoe]

This one will more likely apply to the wedding photographers on the forum, as it is rare I work with a second photographer covering events. Recently I had to hire a professional photographer to cover off the last 3 days of a shoot I was working on. He was highly recommended, had a great web site and has been an award winning photographer, but still lacked some experience and did have a bit of a "rock star" attitude at times. The amount of images he handed me and the overall quality was just average, I have to say I was disappointed. Part of this question, Am I being too critical of his work by comparing it to how I shoot and the quality that I shoot, or should I just accept his abilities and excuses? For the record, I won't be using him again. It was a challenging sporting event where he had to set up his own shoot schedule, and cover 3-4 events per day, what I got was from some of the events was 15 pictures, where I would end up with 150.

So back to the second shooter, what is really expected. He wasn't really a second shooter, but a primary shooter.

In this type of situation he should have tried to mirror your style, thats why he is there. You need the pictures to be cohesive and look like just one person took all of them. I wouldnt say you expected too much but rather maybe the assignment was too much for them. It seems like a lot to take on.

 

[imagemaker46]

I think the key here is that you've both very different ways of operating; he's clearly working with a minimal shoot scale; getting a handful of well timed and well taken photos; whilst you're taking a wider variety of photos through the game. I have no idea of his background, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's had a strong film photography background which has carried over into his digital shooting and workflow.

That said the difference between you doesn't appear to be the product (you like the product) its the volume. That could be a matter of skill, or it could be a difference in how you've both approached the sport and the requirements for the shoot. It could be that a talk with him about how you work and how he could adapt his method could result in him providing a more ideal amount of production for you.

It could also be that is he is over his head - a photographer able to get a handful of good photos from a sporting event, but unable to currently capture a larger volume of higher grade work during the game.

He's 22 years old and never shot film in his life, so there is no carry over to digital. I did tell him that I needed a lot of images from each event, he provided what I would consider below minimum. I have since found out that he water damaged his Canon MklV and had no back screen to work with, he ended up having to borrow a Nikon D4, while it is a better camera, he still would have had to learn the in's and outs of the new gear. I don't think the excuse is good enough though, he's used the Nikon gear before.

 

[imagemaker46]

This one will more likely apply to the wedding photographers on the forum, as it is rare I work with a second photographer covering events. Recently I had to hire a professional photographer to cover off the last 3 days of a shoot I was working on. He was highly recommended, had a great web site and has been an award winning photographer, but still lacked some experience and did have a bit of a "rock star" attitude at times. The amount of images he handed me and the overall quality was just average, I have to say I was disappointed. Part of this question, Am I being too critical of his work by comparing it to how I shoot and the quality that I shoot, or should I just accept his abilities and excuses? For the record, I won't be using him again. It was a challenging sporting event where he had to set up his own shoot schedule, and cover 3-4 events per day, what I got was from some of the events was 15 pictures, where I would end up with 150.

So back to the second shooter, what is really expected. He wasn't really a second shooter, but a primary shooter.

In this type of situation he should have tried to mirror your style, thats why he is there. You need the pictures to be cohesive and look like just one person took all of them. I wouldnt say you expected too much but rather maybe the assignment was too much for them. It seems like a lot to take on.

Trying to put together three days of shooting approximately 10 different sports does require the ability to manage time, and work a solid schedule. It's not a difficult task if the person has done it before, or is skilled at time management. He told me things got hectic, which to me says he lost control of his time schedule. It is not difficult to cover 3-5 sports in one day, if just takes looking at a schedule and working with it, not against it. He said he would show up and shoot for 15 minutes then go to another sport. I was able to cover an entire game and move on to the next one, and cover 3-4 complete events. Sports is all about formula shooting, standard pictures fill the bulk of the files, and the really good action happens. What I got was some good action and some poor filler stuff. He knows I wasn't impressed, unfortunately it has probably cost him a 10 day shoot next year.

 

[imagemaker46]

Thanks for all the comments on this, I appreciate the input.

 

[pixmedic]

If nothing else, it was a good learning experience for him.
maybe he will be a better sports photographer for it.
If you liked him personally, and you think he has potential, perhaps you should invite him to shoot a few events with you (strictly as a learning experience)
If he is really interested in shooting sports, a few times out with an experienced pro might be all he needs to round out his skills in that field.
You might even find he improves enough to meet you standards as a second shooter for next years event.

 

[nycphotography]

If nothing else, it was a good learning experience for him.
maybe he will be a better sports photographer for it.
If you liked him personally, and you think he has potential, perhaps you should invite him to shoot a few events with you (strictly as a learning experience)
If he is really interested in shooting sports, a few times out with an experienced pro might be all he needs to round out his skills in that field.
You might even find he improves enough to meet you standards as a second shooter for next years event.

This.

If you invest in your resources, they will be better resources, and they will (tend) to be loyal and honorable towards you as well.

Or, as Gramma used to say, "you reap what you sow". I think she read that somewhere ;-)

 

[DiskoJoe]

I think the key here is that you've both very different ways of operating; he's clearly working with a minimal shoot scale; getting a handful of well timed and well taken photos; whilst you're taking a wider variety of photos through the game. I have no idea of his background, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's had a strong film photography background which has carried over into his digital shooting and workflow.

That said the difference between you doesn't appear to be the product (you like the product) its the volume. That could be a matter of skill, or it could be a difference in how you've both approached the sport and the requirements for the shoot. It could be that a talk with him about how you work and how he could adapt his method could result in him providing a more ideal amount of production for you.

It could also be that is he is over his head - a photographer able to get a handful of good photos from a sporting event, but unable to currently capture a larger volume of higher grade work during the game.

He's 22 years old and never shot film in his life, so there is no carry over to digital. I did tell him that I needed a lot of images from each event, he provided what I would consider below minimum. I have since found out that he water damaged his Canon MklV and had no back screen to work with, he ended up having to borrow a Nikon D4, while it is a better camera, he still would have had to learn the in's and outs of the new gear. I don't think the excuse is good enough though, he's used the Nikon gear before.

I could never switch to a different brand in the middle of a shoot, ergonomics are too different to be quick enough on the fly. Youre not shooting stills here. But that also shows his level of professionalism. I do not have much money but I have a back up for shoots. You never go to a paying gig with only one camera because things like this can happen.

 

[rexbobcat]

At least the images weren't better than yours. That would be my worst fear hiring a second shooter lol. :/

 

[imagemaker46]

At least the images weren't better than yours. That would be my worst fear hiring a second shooter lol. :/

It's not something I worry about. I have worked as part of a team covering big sports events and we feed off each other, the friendly competition, we all had our strengths and weaknesses, but at the end of the day the client is the one who wins.

 

[imagemaker46]

I think the key here is that you've both very different ways of operating; he's clearly working with a minimal shoot scale; getting a handful of well timed and well taken photos; whilst you're taking a wider variety of photos through the game. I have no idea of his background, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's had a strong film photography background which has carried over into his digital shooting and workflow.

That said the difference between you doesn't appear to be the product (you like the product) its the volume. That could be a matter of skill, or it could be a difference in how you've both approached the sport and the requirements for the shoot. It could be that a talk with him about how you work and how he could adapt his method could result in him providing a more ideal amount of production for you.

It could also be that is he is over his head - a photographer able to get a handful of good photos from a sporting event, but unable to currently capture a larger volume of higher grade work during the game.

He's 22 years old and never shot film in his life, so there is no carry over to digital. I did tell him that I needed a lot of images from each event, he provided what I would consider below minimum. I have since found out that he water damaged his Canon MklV and had no back screen to work with, he ended up having to borrow a Nikon D4, while it is a better camera, he still would have had to learn the in's and outs of the new gear. I don't think the excuse is good enough though, he's used the Nikon gear before.

I could never switch to a different brand in the middle of a shoot, ergonomics are too different to be quick enough on the fly. Youre not shooting stills here. But that also shows his level of professionalism. I do not have much money but I have a back up for shoots. You never go to a paying gig with only one camera because things like this can happen.

He did only have one main body to work with, it just happened that Nikon had loan gear on site, otherwise he would have been screwed, and I would have been screwed as well, pretty sure my client wouldn't have been too happy. I just dropped off the final dvd's today, my 4700 images and his 600.