When C&C is requested.

LarryD · May 6, 2009

So.

Is it because so many new photographers gain a little knowledge...like the much overused "learn about the rule of thirds" comments, and throw those around, even to accomplished photographers that is turning everybody off posting photos ?

............

I notice that the most active board is the beginner board.....but the actual boards where real photography should be displayed, and yes, a community formed, seldom have more than a couple of viewers..

I posted a few times in the Landscape board, where my interest lies........but no community comments ever emerged.........

So, I still visit on occasion....but I haven't posted a photo in a while... It doesn't seem like anybody is interested in seeing Landscapes. But then I think; maybe I'm part of the problem... I love to look at great photos... but I hardly every say what I like about them..

So, what needs to be done to get the actual photography boards back to community interaction boards with great photos, great interaction, and minimal negativity........

rufus5150 · May 6, 2009

LaFoto said:
Actually, my feeling is that unless you are a total beginner doing all the usual beginner's mistakes which are easiest to point out for every "one-eyed among the blind", your posts pass by totally uncommented (0 replies). You get NOTHING any more. No friendly, communicative comment, no positive critique. No negative critique. Only silence. That's been my own experience for the entire past year and is putting me off posting here at all (and somehow you can tell I used to LIKE posting here).

You seem to have to be on either end of the spectrum, either really good or really bad. I don't have as much time to post critique any more as I used to, but I found myself having to cherry pick. I tried to go for the more 'not perfect' but 'way better than average' but it's hard sometimes. From the perspective of critiquing, the typical technical issues are low-hanging fruit.

DRoberts · May 6, 2009

One problem I have seen is when someone gives their opinion, to many times someone else will come behind and slam that person for having that opinon. To me it all comes down to personal preference. I might like dark photos, and John Doe may like brite photos, so if I say "Your photo IMO would look better darker." John Doe comes on and tells me I am wrong it would look better brighter, and I am such an idiot for posting my opinion. thus starting a flame that gets way off the topic and ignores the OP. If I post a photos for critique and everytime my thread gets highjacked by a few people who would rather argue over personal opinion rather than discuss my issue, then why would I want to post anymore?

ShotGunNik · May 6, 2009

I look at it like this....the confrontation itself among others during a C&C is a C&C within itself. Plenty of great facts / info / techniques / views will be thrown back and fourth during the thread discussion. So, I say, either learn to take the punches and take notes, or do not use an internet forum lol.

Overread · May 6, 2009

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/feedback-suggestions/162889-pro-critique-suggestion.html

mostly what I have to say in critique for any level - I view it as a communication and I see a lot of posts where the thread starter is asking for C&C but is going no further than to post a few (at best) or a lot (at worst) images and then sit back and wait for the comments and advice to come in - which often fails unless its a risky shot or something is really standing out as right or wrong.

So that is the first step = puting more effort into the thread at the start can really help get better and more constructive comments and really helps people to understand where you are comming from.

Secondly I think some people need to understand that whilst they are not the Ansel Adams of photography they are better than average and that they have moved beyond what many are able to critizise - at this point you have to move to the fewer more advanced photographers for aid (sadly too many on the site have been burned and no longer talk in the open sections) or start to assess your work yourself - to put onself through the process of assess just what the photo is about and what you were aiming for - heck when I started this was not something I could do and now - now I am only just starting to really understand this aspect. Its a mindset change and its an experience aspect as well.

As for the history of TPF it seems we have had a long time where people had long fights over images over comments over crits and soon the images are forgotten and its all egos that are left. Honestly the only savour I can see for that is what many would consider "over moderation" - harsh yes, but it would help keep people in check!
At the moment though I feel this is a line that is not really open to us and sadly I feel that the worst part is that our current site owners are not putting the effort into the community aspect of the site - and that means things start to unthread at the start.

What can we as members do - well we can post long and endless threads like this to vent in - then we can do and do something. What that something is is dependant on the person and how they feel about things.

Myself I feel a good course in manners would help some members of the site a lot.....

Over(not giving up on the dead duck yet)read

edit - late nights and drink might help critiquing though!
http://www.zarias.com/?p=372

ShotGunNik · May 6, 2009

+1 to the late night drinking rofl

DRoberts · May 6, 2009

ShotGunNik said:
I look at it like this....the confrontation itself among others during a C&C is a C&C within itself. Plenty of great facts / info / techniques / views will be thrown back and fourth during the thread discussion. So, I say, either learn to take the punches and take notes, or do not use an internet forum lol.

That's true if the discussion is over solid technical aspects...but to say that my opinion is wrong is wrong in itself....its my personal opinon...just like I love to eat sushi...if you don't like sushi, that doesn't make me "wrong" for liking it and there should be no arguement over that fact. You will not give an opinion that changes my taste.

ShotGunNik · May 6, 2009

DRoberts said:
That's true if the discussion is over solid technical aspects...but to say that my opinion is wrong is wrong in itself....its my personal opinon...just like I love to eat sushi...if you don't like sushi, that doesn't make me "wrong" for liking it and there should be no arguement over that fact. You will not give an opinion that changes my taste.

Exactly, but as well, common sense or personal judgement can help a reader make a decision during a dispute / discussion and either move on, take notes, or close the window.

Arch · May 6, 2009

Well Jerry is right to a degree... a good critique isn't just about whether you like the photo or not, its about taking into consideration what the photographer set out to achieve and giving feedback on if the image achieves the set goals or not.
This way of critique is what i was taught at college and is what often seperates the art educted and the self taught. This is not being elietist in any way, its just in a college learning environment you are forced to do crit sessions in a group every other week.... self taught you are not exposed this and its not something that can be learned easily over the internet.

The best person to explain the philosophy of the critique is Hertz.

ShotGunNik · May 6, 2009

Very well said.

DRoberts · May 6, 2009

I can agree with Arch on this, as long as its given with the right attitude of helping, rather than insulting as many are.
Another issue I have seen is that some people seem to think that the number of post you have on here is a direct reflection on an individuals experience or knowledge level. I have actually seen people post "who does X person think they are? They only have X amount of post." If Irving Penn or Eugene Smith ( if still alive) joined the forum should their opinions not be heeded just because they don't have thousands of post?

TiCoyote · May 6, 2009

LaFoto said:
I don't see that happen in today's threads on here, either.
You get NOTHING any more. No friendly, communicative comment, no positive critique. No negative critique. Only silence. That's been my own experience for the entire past year and is putting me off posting here at all (and somehow you can tell I used to LIKE posting here).

... I'm on the brink of calling it a day here on TPF. After all those many, many years...

I understand how you feel, and I want to share my experience from sitting in many art and writing classes, at both the head and the foot of the table. I think the problem we're running into is a lack of structure. Maybe if we put together small groups of individuals, 8 people or so, with similar abilities in sort of "online critique circles" this could help. The groups would post and C&C together for 8 weeks or so, and then adapt, disband, or shift. If they stayed the same forever, we'd end up preaching to the same choir. Every week, we could have an assignment. Each member would list general goals at the beginning, which would help us focus our feedback, and everyone would expect 8 sets of feedback from the same people who watched as we develop (no pun intended) our skills.

DRoberts · May 6, 2009

TiCoyote said:
I understand how you feel, and I want to share my experience from sitting in many art and writing classes, at both the head and the foot of the table. I think the problem we're running into is a lack of structure. Maybe if we put together small groups of individuals, 8 people or so, with similar abilities in sort of "online critique circles" this could help. The groups would post and C&C together for 8 weeks or so, and then adapt, disband, or shift. If they stayed the same forever, we'd end up preaching to the same choir. Every week, we could have an assignment. Each member would list general goals at the beginning, which would help us focus our feedback, and everyone would expect 8 sets of feedback from the same people who watched as we develop (no pun intended) our skills.

That would work well in a smaller setting. Do you think it be applicable to the wide range and volume of work on here? It would require alot of time for those specific individuals to do this and it would have to be placed in a common sub-forum, thus bringing us back to the original topic of a critique forum.

Overread · May 6, 2009

It does sound like a lot of work - but I am sitting here thinking that we can pull it off!
This forum has a massive membership base of active members - heck just look at how many we have online right now - so we have the members and we seem to have a lot looking for C&C at the moment!

Part of me is feeling that these groups would need/want an experienced photographer standing over them (as it were) to help give some focus and to guide their thoughts along the right lines - so as to help prevent them from going down poor routs or not expanding their understanding (just sticking with basic exposure and rule of 3rds for example) that is the area where I feel we might have a problem or we might not if others just take interest in the threads generated by such groups.