Any desktop PC geeks here?

[robbins.photo]

Jim,

A couple of quick thoughts - ok, first I'd go with the 2 smaller SSD's, but I would not recommend the 500 gb. I think you'll be far better served getting a large hard drive for storage, a 2 or possibly 3 tb - if you'd like you can even go external for now. Wait for the next gen of SSD's, at least, before getting a big SSD drive. The price per gig is prohibitive, and SSD's do have a limited life cycle, at least for now. They are getting closer and closer to the sort of MTF you can get with a standard hard drive (mean time to failure), but they are not there yet. So I really do think for now your better of with one much larger, much cheaper storage drive for photo's and whatever else you might need.

Later on you can get the next gen of SSD's with what will likely be much better MTF and at much cheaper $ per gig price, and then you can always use your large HDD for backup purposes. In the long run I think it will be a much better investment overall.

Ok, piece of advice #2 - when it comes to memory don't skimp and always buy in sets. You will always get your best results buying the same brand all at once rather than trying to mix and match. When possible, fill your available slots with name brand chips that are all the same size (IE, all 2 GB, or all 4 GB, or all 8 GB, etc...), all the same speed, all from the same manufacturer and preferably all bought at the same time from the same vendor. Don't mix and match. Yes, the system will still run - but you'd be surprised at the difference it can make in speed and stability by following this general rule.

Power supply - again, don't skimp. Think of it as a long term investment - don't buy a power supply for the PC your building right now, buy one for your next PC in mind instead. I've seen more than one high powered PC build go awry because somebody started with a lower end power supply, worked fine at first but after they added say another video card to the system and maybe another component or two suddenly they started developing all sorts of strange problems that were difficult to trace. Turns out it was usually the power supply itself just wasn't able to keep up with everything they added into the system.

A few years back I bought a Lian Li case and 1000 watt power supply. My friend who was also a fellow computer tech thought I was completely daffy for dropping that much on a case and power supply - but I've gone through 3 builds reusing the same case, same power supply - never had to replace either. He on the other hand has gone through 4 power supply upgrades in that same time frame, and at the moment he's running an 800 watt unit. In the end he spent more money than I did by buying the 4 different power supplies than I did buying the more expensive one up front. Again, something to think of as a long term investment.

 

[JimMcClain]

I'm just saying if you're in a budget crunch, you'll get a lot more storage per cent with an HDD than with an SSD. And not all your files need 24/7 high speed access either. Considering SSDs are at $0.50 per gig while HDDs are $0.07 per gig (for a TB), it's a cost friendly alternative that doesn't hamper too much performance.

if you aren't doing any gaming, don't spend more than $100 on a GPU. Photoshop and LR only use the GPU to power the display, but don't utilize any of it's processing power. It's in Adobe's statement.

Again, you could save money by going with a decent 600 watt PSU. It's not as scalable, but it'll save you a good $40 to $50.

I mean running 32gb is up to you, but if you aren't doing serious computing, its completely unnecessary. If you are adamant, just make sure your mobo can handle 32gb.

I think you missed the part where I said this isn't a budget build. All great advice for those reading this that are going for a budget build, but I'm not.

I was slow in moving from hand-held calculators, note pads and pencils and typewritten letters and invoices to my first computer in 1991. I was slow in getting my first earring (I got mine when it was important to know the distinction in having one in one ear and not the other). I was slow in getting my first microwave oven. I was slow in realizing that dating 2 different women at the same time was not a sin. I was even slow at getting on-board with Windows XP. I refuse to be slow in adopting the advantages of SSD technology. This new machine will be all SSD and I hope to replace my external HDD backup system when I can't rely on it anymore (I remember the time I had to freeze a drive to recover data - and refreeze and refreeze to get every last thing). HDDs have moving parts that fail. SSDs don't. That's not to say an SSD won't fail, but the better SSDs are stable, sturdy and reliable. More so than any HDD has ever been. Yes, they are more expensive. That is not as important to me as all the other benefits of SSD. Yes, SSD is faster than needed for retrieving files. So is a 7200 RPM disk that only contains personal files.

You may have read an old statement from Adobe. Since Photoshop CS5, there are new GPU-accellerated features that better quality cards can exploit. Photoshop CS5 and 6 automatically detects NVIDIA GeForce or Quadro GPUs to enable these accelerated features.

I'm not interested in saving money by getting a 600 watt PSU when a 750 watter will provide me with abundant power and security. It's better to have more, than just plain adequate - and scalability should be factored into a higher end machine.

I have 16GB of RAM in my current machine and it lags. It also has a good i5 2.67MhZ processor. But the programs and tasks I do regularly tend to make work sluggish. I noticed this even more since beginning to use Lightroom and dealing with the large RAW file sizes. If I want to move up to a full-frame camera some day, I'll need more computing power than I have. This machine, like the last, has to be built with the thought that it will likely be my last. I want it to be powerful enough to keep me satisfied for whatever time I have left. Hopefully, that will be another 5+ years.

Again though, all your advice is valuable and I am sure much appreciated for those wanting to build or upgrade a budget system. Thank you.

Jim

 

[JimMcClain]

On the subject of operating systems, based on what you've said thus far, honestly I'd say go with Win 8.1. The interface elements threw a lot of users, but honestly most intermediate to advanced users will have little problem adjusting (esp now since they've refined a few things).

I cut a lot of what you said, but all of it was good to read. I've been trying not to think too much about making this a Windows 8.1 machine, but if what I just said to another member about being slow to get on board with new tech is true, then I better think again about upgrading my Windows experience. Thanks for sharing your experience and opinion.

Jim

 

[JimMcClain]

A couple of quick thoughts - ok, first I'd go with the 2 smaller SSD's, but I would not recommend the 500 gb. I think you'll be far better served getting a large hard drive for storage, a 2 or possibly 3 tb - if you'd like you can even go external for now. Wait for the next gen of SSD's, at least, before getting a big SSD drive. The price per gig is prohibitive, and SSD's do have a limited life cycle, at least for now. They are getting closer and closer to the sort of MTF you can get with a standard hard drive (mean time to failure), but they are not there yet. So I really do think for now your better of with one much larger, much cheaper storage drive for photo's and whatever else you might need.

Well, I might not be around for the next generation. I'm just being realistic. I am on borrowed time now. If my doctors knew what they were talking about, I'da been gone about 4 years ago. But still, I know my health and I can't afford to think "next generation." I am living in the moment and if at this moment a 500GB SSD costs 500 bucks (only 460.00 currently), then that's the cost of building it into a PC.

The Samsung 850 Pro IS the next generation for me. It has a endurance rating of 150TB, which is nearly twice any other SDD. It would take me 20 years to break that drive. If by chance I was alive long enough to break the drive in less than 10 years, Samsung will replace it - that's the warranty length.

Ok, piece of advice #2 - when it comes to memory don't skimp and always buy in sets. You will always get your best results buying the same brand all at once rather than trying to mix and match. When possible, fill your available slots with name brand chips that are all the same size (IE, all 2 GB, or all 4 GB, or all 8 GB, etc...), all the same speed, all from the same manufacturer and preferably all bought at the same time from the same vendor. Don't mix and match. Yes, the system will still run - but you'd be surprised at the difference it can make in speed and stability by following this general rule.

All excellent advice. As additional information to those looking to upgrade their RAM, you can mix speeds (check your mobo documentation and the list of RAM recommended for your board), but your machine will run at the slower of the rated speeds for your sticks (if you have 2 sticks of 1600 and 2 of 1333, your machine will run at only 1333 speed). By the way, there are reports that show RAM sticks with higher speeds and shorter latency don't really test all that differently. This is a place you can save big without sacrificing quality. And if you don't overclock (and sometimes even if you do), don't buy RAM with those fancy heat sinks. They don't really need them and sometimes a crappy heat sink will make the chips hotter, not cooler. If you have good air flow in your case, heat sinks will not make any difference except in the amount of $$$ you spend - and the bling factor, of course. Modders like teh bling. Case windows show off teh bling. My bling days are over though.

Power supply - again, don't skimp. Think of it as a long term investment - don't buy a power supply for the PC your building right now, buy one for your next PC in mind instead. I've seen more than one high powered PC build go awry because somebody started with a lower end power supply, worked fine at first but after they added say another video card to the system and maybe another component or two suddenly they started developing all sorts of strange problems that were difficult to trace. Turns out it was usually the power supply itself just wasn't able to keep up with everything they added into the system.

Completely agree with this. A PSU is arguably one of the most important components in a computer. Best not to skimp on it.

A few years back I bought a Lian Li case and 1000 watt power supply. My friend who was also a fellow computer tech thought I was completely daffy for dropping that much on a case and power supply - but I've gone through 3 builds reusing the same case, same power supply - never had to replace either. He on the other hand has gone through 4 power supply upgrades in that same time frame, and at the moment he's running an 800 watt unit. In the end he spent more money than I did by buying the 4 different power supplies than I did buying the more expensive one up front. Again, something to think of as a long term investment.

I have a LianLi case now, and a 750 watt PSU. But I want to sell or give away this machine after I build the new one (I'll prob'ly sell it - me so greedy). You're right though. Good equipment will last longer than some of the technology. You can transfer somethings to a new computer and spend far less.

Thanks,

Jim

 

[407370]

If budget is not first priority dont forget to include blue neon CPU water cooling kit and see through sides on the case.

 

[JimMcClain]

Hrmmmm... I don't THINK so.

But it's not like I haven't done something like that before.

Please, no C&C on these pics.

 

[zaroba]

If there is one thing I've learned from scratch building all my computers for the past 10 years it's that bigger cases are far easier to use and that you can't wait to buy stuff.
Reading the topic, the main worry I have if your goal of using a micro ATX case. Cooling may be a major issue if your using high end components and don't want to go with liquid cooling.

Any modern high end GPU wont fit in a micro-ATX so you will need a lower end card and If your doing anything that is very graphical (like the large image editing you mentioned) your computer will suffer, especially if your lagging with 16GB of ram now. The newer high end video cards take 2 or 3 motherboard slots and can be over 10 inches long. They barely fit in a mid-tower without moving the hard drive bracket somewhere else, and you want several hard drives. The GPU will also be the main governor behind how large a PSU you need to get, and higher capacity PSUs are larger then lower capacity ones, especially if you want quality and you definitely need to go with a full modular PSU if you are going to use a small case. If you want to go for 32GB of ram of ram in a micro-atx motherboard then you will need to find one with high capacity slots (2x 16gb, 4x 8gb). Larger motherboards can easily hold 6 or more sticks of DDR 3 which isn't hard to push to 32gb or even higher.

All this means is heat, heat and more heat. While CPUs need to be kept cool and are sensitive to high temps, it is normal for modern GPUs to run at 60C when *not* under load and can hit 100C when under heavy load, hence the reason they are so large, most of their size is due to the heat pipe system and fans. This heat from the GPU will heat up the inside of your computer and result in the ambient temp inside the PC being high. If the temp inside your case is high, then fans on the CPU, northbridge, and PSU wont be of much use. A heatsync and fan wont keep a CPU under 50C if it's blowing 80C air on it, and at 80C your CPU will pretty much be shot. A high ambient temp can also result in lag due to your ram over heating. 4 8gb sticks of ram will run hotter then 8 4gb sticks of ram. Might be good to get a ram fan anyway.

A larger case is *far* easier to cool with fans then a smaller one. I have server towers for both my gaming pc and my media pc. 120mm 3k rpm fans really move a lot of air if you don't mind your computer sounding like a small jet engine unless you have a sound insulated case.

Also, while SSDs are great, they are still relatively new when it comes to being used as hard drives. So don't depend on them 100% as being failure proof like SD cards and other flash media. I'm pretty sure very SSD on amazon that has reviews has some mentioning failure.

Something else to take in to consideration are the programs you are using.
Your current computer may have 16gb of ram, but are your applications using that much?
A 32bit program can't use more then 4gb of ram even if it is on a 64bit operating system.



As for the income limit, that kinda goes hand in hand with budget.
You can't plan out a computer now and wait a year to build it. Computer hardware is advancing at an alarming rate and anything you plan to buy could easily be considered lower end a year from now. It could be half the price though. Due to this, you also need to buy everything within a month or two. If you buy a motherboard now, then wait 6 months to buy the rest of the components, you'll find that there are newer and faster components on the market that may not be compatible with the motherboard you have. Building a computer with components released 2-3 years ago can cost 1/5th the price of building one with the newest top of the line components, that's how fast it advances and how fast prices drop. but it is also the easiest way to save a ton of money and still get a computer that can run modern applications with ease. Because computer hardware is also far ahead of most computer software.

 

[JimMcClain]

Everything is relative, zaroba.

I researched the case before I ordered it and it will easily fit every component I need. Since I will not be using HDDs, the space they take and the heat they generate will not be a concern. SSDs have been out long enough to be relied on for all storage systems in the modern PC and that's my plan.

This will not be a gamer machine and will not be under continuous and relentless gaming stresses. There is more than enough air flow and fan solutions to ease my mind about temperature control. The NVIDIA Quadro series of video cards are compact, cool and plenty powerful.

Most full-size cases and ATX motherboards just aren't necessary for the computer power user. Compact systems can and have been built with great power and performance and very few heat issues. It just takes good research, planning and execution.

Income limit is not the same as budget. Income limit means I can only count on a specific amount on my retirement check each month. But that's not my only source of income, it's just the only one I can count on every month. Budget is a predetermined amount of money you want to spend on something like a computer build. Even if you are poor, you can have a very high budget. It just will take much longer to get. I'm anxious, but I am not going to rush it. If it takes me a few months, that's fine. If it takes longer, so be it.

Jim

 

[zaroba]

It just will take much longer to get. I'm anxious, but I am not going to rush it. If it takes me a few months, that's fine. If it takes longer, so be it.

This is exactly what I was taking about when I said income and budget go hand in hand.
Lets say you know you will save $200 a month for a new PC build (just an example, it's none of my business what your income is)
If the build costs $1200 then it will take you up to 6 months to save up the money for it.

Scenario A: You plan everything out, then save up for 6 months to buy the components and build the PC.
By the time 6 months is up, many of the components you were planning to buy will be cheaper and newer, better components will be within that $1200 price range. You can now afford a faster CPU since the 3GHz version now costs the same as the 2.6GHz version did 6 months ago. There is a 1TB SSD for sale for the same price that 500GB SSDs were 6 months ago. A better motherboard is for sale for the same price your original motherboard was 6 months ago. Basically need to re-plan what you want.

Scenario B: You buy piece by piece when money is available (worst method IMO)
You buy a montherboard now, 2 months later you buy the GPU, after another 2 months the CPU, then 6 finally months after getting the motherboard you finally buy the RAM, HDs and PSU to finish the PC.
Only problem with this is that once you start getting components, your pretty much limited as to what you can replace when faster stuff gets cheaper. You bought a motherboard first, but now there is a better CPU on the market and it isn't compatible with your motherboard so your stuck with the original CPU you planned to get. Or a newer version of the motherboard gets released that has options that you like far more.

Just some basic examples from personal experiences.


I know you said the computer wont be used for gaming, but you did say graphics rendering, right?
Most stresses from games are due to rendering the graphics, hence the need for big beefy GPUs.
If your lagging while rendering with 16gb of ram then either your current GPU just isn't up to the task or your trying to make your computer do more graphics processing then the newest games on the market would, and they can run flawlessly on a high end video card (ie, something with a few GB of built in ram) and only 8gb of computer ram for the rest of the games processes. If it's the later, then your computer is being put under more stress then a high end gaming computer.

 

[lambertpix]

Looks like some good advice here, so far. I did a build a little over a year ago and wrote up what I put in it as well as some of my thoughts about why I chose all the components.

A PC for photo editing
PC Build, addendum

During the pricing / planning stages, I found Pick Parts, Build Your PC, Compare and Share - PCPartPicker to be pretty helpful -- it's a great way to stack up prospective builds and solicit some commentary, as well as research pricing.

 

[JimMcClain]

The case I ordered last Tuesday arrived today. Although it is a mATX case, it is larger than the average mATX case and has had some very good reviews, winning numerous awards. If you want to read more about the case, go here: Obsidian Series® 350D Micro ATX PC Case For now, it sits on my "workbench" waiting for parts. Some of those should be arriving later this week.

Jim

 

[lambertpix]

Not a bad looking case. I wanted more room for HDD's, and bonus points for not cramming them in so tight they couldn't breathe, so to speak. The R4 can mount an SDD behind the MB tray, which in hindsight I'm not sure I'm super-crazy about, but it's got a ton of room for drives. I've got three in there now, and I'll add another soon (giving me one SDD and two pairs of mirrored data drives). Seems like I run out of space every time I turn around.... I wonder why? ;-)

 

[JimMcClain]

With just the included drive bays, this case can hold 6 SSDs or 4 SSDs and a HDD or 2 SSDs and 2 HDDs. Most mATX motherboards I've been looking at have 6 SATA IIIs. My plan is for 3 SSDs to start (2x 128GB, 1x 500GB) and room to add another SSD of undetermined size later. The swappable external drives are each 500GB HHDs, but I'll upgrade to SDDs later - the current HDDS are about 7 years old now).

Jim

 

[lambertpix]

With just the included drive bays, this case can hold 6 SSDs or 4 SSDs and a HDD or 2 SSDs and 2 HDDs. Most mATX motherboards I've been looking at have 6 SATA IIIs. My plan is for 3 SSDs to start (2x 128GB, 1x 500GB) and room to add another SSD of undetermined size later. The swappable external drives are each 500GB HHDs, but I'll upgrade to SDDs later - the current HDDS are about 7 years old now).

Jim

Yeah, I couldn't handle just SSD's. I'm starting to think those new 6TB drives coming out now are looking pretty good, in fact. ;-)

 

[JimMcClain]

Two 128GB Samsung 850 Pro solid state drives arrived today - sitting at my stoop when I returned from a trip to Reno, NV. The SSD cage is accessed from the right side panel. One will be for the OS and programs, the other will hold the Windows page file, Photoshop scratch file and all the system's temporary files.

It's a start.

Jim