Do you carry....protection?

[inTempus]

People with weapons going mad and killing people is not at all a rare thing. Because people going mad happens far too often. The real big problem is when they are so easily armed. And yet for you the possibility of carrying a weapon seems to imply protection! :er: Funny...

Apparently you think banning guns reduces crime. You also apparently believe that if you can ban everything from guns to sharp objects we'll all live in utopia. You seem to forget one key element, the "mad man". You can ban everything under the sun, but people hell bent on hurting you or making you a victim will still do so... the only difference is you will be powerless to stop them.

You might want to read this.

#3: Gun Control Has Reduced The Crime Rates In Other Countries

England: According to the BBC News, handgun crime in the United Kingdom rose by 40% in the two years after it passed its draconian gun ban in 1997.4

Australia: Readers of the USA Today newspaper discovered in 2002 that, "Since Australia's 1996 laws banning most guns and making it a crime to use a gun defensively, armed robberies rose by 51%, unarmed robberies by 37%, assaults by 24% and kidnappings by 43%. While murders fell by 3%, manslaughter rose by 16%."2

"You are more likely to be mugged in England than in the United States," stated the Reuters news agency in summarizing the study. "The rate of robbery is now 1.4 times higher in England and Wales than in the United States, and the British burglary rate is nearly double America's."6 The murder rate in the United States is reportedly higher than in England, but according to the DOJ study, "the difference between the [murder rates in the] two countries has narrowed over the past 16 years."7

Let's say we have 100 people in a room. Out of those 100, one of them can't be trusted with a sharp object like a dinner knife. Your proposed solution to the problem is to ban dinner knives from the group. We'll punish the other 99 people because one person can't behave. That strategy is how you find yourself living under government subjugation... something people of other nations might be content with but Americans fought two bloody wars to break away from.

I'll stick with my freedom and I'll be content to lock up that single malcontent verses pushing the rest of the law abiding population and in the process making them victims to that 1%.

 

[inTempus]

However on this occasion i am willing to leave the thread open, as long as people are full of understanding and thoughtfulness... if it turns into an 'im right your wrong' arguement then it will be locked.

Thanks. Hopefully we can behave ourselves.

The point is... its not the modern world... here in England we have amongst the lowest gun related deaths in the entire world, america has by a long way one of the highest.

According to recent studies two elements are at play here.

1) Police in England misreport crimes routinely. This is a well established fact. They probably do so under pressure from the government.

2) Despite these discrepancies, violent crime rates have been soaring in the UK while the United States has seen the reverse trend. In the UK you've seen the passing of extremely restrictive (out-right bans) on firearms while during that same period in the US we've passed concealed carry laws in 38 of our 50 States. We've taken two different approaches to solving the problem, ours is working and yours has exacerbated the problem.

In england it is illegal to carry a gun, the average police officer doesn't carry a gun... virtually no gun related accidents happen... if you get mugged or attacked, the criminal will more than likely not be carring a gun.

You're right, the criminal will likely be carrying a knife. Knives are not lesser weapons, they are extremely devastating weapons. I have seen the results of both shootings and stabbings in my life first hand (in the military, not on city streets), and I can assure you there is nothing more gruesome than being attacked with an edged weapon.

It would appear your nations solution to this problem is to now ban knives... including kitchen utensils.

So it makes sense that if guns are so difficult to aquire and frowned upon even by law enforcement... the chances are i will never be theatend by one.. and frankly i doubt i will ever see a real gun in my life... so no, im not a dreamer or an idealist... i simply live in an anti-gun society, and i am very very glad of that.

You're content living in a culture where you're unarmed and will be imprisoned for even raising a fist in self defense. I am honestly happy for you. Most Americans are content living in our pro-gun culture where we can defend ourselves... where we have laws known as "castle doctrines" where if you're in my house at 2am, weapon or not, I can use whatever force I deem necessary to remove you and no charges will be filed. In your culture you must hide in the closet and hope the intruder doesn't find you while he cleans you out of property. If you dare attempt to defend yourself or your property, you will be locked up for as long, if not longer, than the perpetrator.

I feel sorry tho for the people that don't like gun usage, that live in such a pro gun society.. it must be very difficult.

While you may feel sorry for those of us living in a pro-gun culture, conversely we feel sympathy for your citizens forced to live in a culture where you will be imprisoned for defending yourself or your loved ones...

The beauty of it is all that if either of us are not happy with our governments, we can either vote to change things or leave and find a home more suitable to our needs.

Here in the States we have the option to move freely between States. Some States like California have laws similar to yours (and ironically where crime soars), and other States like Arizona allow people walk around with handguns on their hips in full view of the public and no one bats and eye.

As long as we have a choice, it all balances out in the end. It's having that choice that's important to me.

 

[Arch]

That strategy is how you find yourself living under government subjugation... something people of other nations might be content with but Americans fought two bloody wars to break away from.

Dude i respect the fact that it sounds like you have complete control over your firearm, i have no doubt that you do... but the reason you need the gun in the first place is because of americas gun problem.

what you said here above is not how it is... us british are not being forced into this by our government... nor are we content with being controlled.
The fact of the matter is... the more guns which are in circulation, the more people get killed, period. You can argue the knife angle, but guns are made for one purpose only.. to kill.

This is why i did aks that people try and understand where other members are coming from.... in Enlgand the majority of us are very happy with the zero tollerance we have on guns, please dont make out like we are being forced to behave this way, its just what we know... and i do respect that in some states in the US, gun ownership is something you just know by way of life.

As for the 100 people analogy... here's one of my own... put a group of people on a desert island offer one person a way out... they may argue, they may even fight, sure.. someone may hurt, but the chances someone will be killed is minimal.
Now throw a gun into the mix.. the first person to pick that up then has ALL the power... would he shoot?.. who knows, if someone charges at him, he may panic.
Moral of this story, when put under pressure.. or a desperate situation.. anyone can pull a trigger.
Throw that gun into the sea, everyone is back at square one.

 

[Arch]

You might want to read this.

#3: Gun Control Has Reduced The Crime Rates In Other Countries

All the stats on gun control and gun deaths i would go by are from independent sources... i wouldn't go by a single fact from a Pro gun website, sorry!

I have read tho that gun crime is reduced in recent years in America... thats great, i hope it continues... but america is still a long way ahead of england in terms of homicide.

We do have our problems over here thats for sure... dont get me wrong it is very easy to get beaten up over here, especially if your in the wrong areas.. but you will probably make it out with a black eye and brused ribs... not in a body bag.

 

[inTempus]

All the stats on gun control and gun deaths i would go by are from independent sources... i wouldn't go by a single fact from a Pro gun website, sorry!

If you look more closely, they are independent sources which are cited. USA Today and other mainstream media are responsible for the reporting, it's merely echoed on the pro-gun site.

I have read tho that gun crime is reduced in recent years in America... thats great, i hope it continues... but america is still a long way ahead of england in terms of homicide.

That's always been the case. Different nations, different cultures. Firearms can't be blamed for the differences in culture. The fact remains, we've loosened our gun control laws and our crime has gone down, you've tightened yours and it's gone up.

We do have our problems over here thats for sure... dont get me wrong it is very easy to get beaten up over here, especially if your in the wrong areas.. but you will probably make it out with a black eye and brused ribs... not in a body bag.

From everything I've read, stabbings are insanely popular as of late... and that will surely land you in a body bag. :mrgreen: Well, that or the hospital with some painful stitches.

 

[inTempus]

This is why i did aks that people try and understand where other members are coming from.... in Enlgand the majority of us are very happy with the zero tollerance we have on guns, please dont make out like we are being forced to behave this way, its just what we know... and i do respect that in some states in the US, gun ownership is something you just know by way of life.

I understand that, and even said as much in a previous post. We have a choice as to where we live, and I'm thankful for that.

...an interesting read.

British Subjects Beginning To Rethink Gun Control

By
Erich Pratt


Who would ever have thought that a British paper would extol the virtues of private citizens bearing arms?
That is what readers of the London Daily Telegraph must have been asking themselves last month when they read Simon Heffer's article entitled, "If the state fails us, we must defend ourselves."

It turns out, the state has been failing British citizens in a big way.

Heffer documents several gruesome murders, the most recent involving a gang of young thugs who repeatedly stabbed an unarmed, 82 year-old lady to death.

Crime has gotten so bad, Heffer says, that Brits like himself are beginning to reexamine their long-held assumptions about the government's role in controlling crime.

Heffer used to believe there was an implicit contract between law-abiding citizens and the state. The people surrender certain freedoms to the government, and officials would in turn use their power to control crime.
He says it is clear to all, however, that "the state has broken that contract."

Now that crime rates are skyrocketing in England, Heffer believes it is time for the British government to recognize a new right for denizens like himself -- the right to bear arms.

In one sense, Heffer is wrong. Bearing arms would not be a "new right" for Englishmen, for the English Bill of Rights recognized this very important freedom as far back as 1689.

But he is correct in another sense. The British government consistently denies its people the ability to protect themselves with a firearm. England enacted a draconian gun ban after the Dunblane massacre, yet that law has done nothing to reduce crime, Heffer says.

In fact, things have only gotten worse. He longingly looks to America where citizens can defend themselves with firearms, unlike the situation in England where a homeowner used a gun in 1999 to kill a lifelong criminal and was then sent to jail for life!

 

[inTempus]

I feel sorry tho for the people that don't like gun usage, that live in such a pro gun society.. it must be very difficult.

I wanted to further comment on this...

As you've pointed out, a majority of people in your nation want restrictive gun control laws.

Here in the States a majority of people do not want such laws.

So, you must also feel sorry for your own countrymen who wish to have their firearms returned to them who don't share your views... even though they too are in the minority.

 

[RauschPhotography]

You know, in some cases, you'd be honestly lucky if they just made away with your gear. The way I see it is, if someone's going to threaten my life, I'm going to equalize it. A knife, to me, is not very logical. Would I carry one? Sure, but that's only because I'm not yet eligible for my permit to carry in Minnesota. Otherwise, it doesn't make much sense because you have to be within arms length, which is just a little too close for comfort. If someone's using deadly force, I'm going to use it. I value my life too much to NOT carry.

The way I also see carrying is.. Well, do you wear a seatbelt? Sure you do. Is it because you actually forsee yourself being in an accident?
(And yes, I do know it's because it's also a law.) Of course not, you'll do anything to avoid it. But there's that chance that you will get an accident and the seatbelt will save your life. Same logic applies to carrying.

I could not carry any sort of weapon, I just won't. I have been in places all over the world and I can't think of one time in my life having a knife or gun or any sort of weapon would have helped.

It is just gear, if someone really wants it that bad and wants to mug me, I will give it to them without a fight, that is what insurance is for (I have been mugged twice).

But I can imagine if I had pulled a weapon things could have ended much worse than a police report and $100 taken (I have never had my gear on me when mugged).

Does it suck, yes!,
Do you feel horible after, Yup!,
Would I feel better if I injured myself or took someones life, Not a chance!

I figure you never know what drives someone to agression and you never know how far someone else is willing to go, so why even chance it.

The only time I carry a knife is when back packing, and that has nothing to do with protection.

 

[abraxas]

Good grief, please lock this thread!

Do what you do for whatever reasons you do it. If you're going to carry a weapon, carry it. Keep your mouth shut and keep your paranoia to yourself.

We're all going to die anyhow- do you really think you're in on how that's going to happen?

 

[RauschPhotography]

On a lighter note...

Banana clip, anyone???

 

[Arch]

...an interesting read.

Yes im all for giving both sides a read and try to absorb the info as best i can.. however i feel this assesment is still wrong. No matter how bad knife crimes and other crimes are, introducing the right to bear arms for british people is a step backwards.
Just a short while back our nation was shaocked to hear a 15 y/o had got hold of a gun and fired shots towards a group of youngsters, and 11 y/o boy playing football was shot in the neck and killed.

Even if it is only a dream to live in a society totally free of guns... its still a step forward to make them illegal.

I do undertstand tho that if i did live in a rough part of america, i may feel the need to protect my family, im not sure how i would deal with that.

I have had a few requests that this thread be locked tho, so it will be done shortly.

 

[fwellers]

Good grief, please lock this thread!

Do what you do for whatever reasons you do it. If you're going to carry a weapon, carry it. Keep your mouth shut and keep your paranoia to yourself.

We're all going to die anyhow- do you really think you're in on how that's going to happen?

It's so predictable. No matter which type of forum it is, photography, motorcycles, cars, philosophy, religion, IT forums, and a myriad of others I've been on, whenever a thread gets one or two posts relating to carrying firearms, that thread ALWAYS becomes a firearm thread. Usually it becomes a mixture of posts concerning who carry's what, and arguments over gun laws.

It must be a fact of the human condition. Gun posts derail threads.

I bet if someone made a thread specifically about carrying while shooting pics, it would be a whopper of a 1000+ post thread ( assuming the conversation didn't get too spiteful, and the mods kept a loose reign on it, and didn't can it. )

 

[inTempus]

Good grief, please lock this thread!

Do what you do for whatever reasons you do it. If you're going to carry a weapon, carry it. Keep your mouth shut and keep your paranoia to yourself.

We're all going to die anyhow- do you really think you're in on how that's going to happen?

Why lock this thread? It's quite active which means people want to take part in the discussion.

If you don't like it, you're not obligated to read it.

 

[inTempus]

It's so predictable. No matter which type of forum it is, photography, motorcycles, cars, philosophy, religion, IT forums, and a myriad of others I've been on, whenever a thread gets one or two posts relating to carrying firearms, that thread ALWAYS becomes a firearm thread. Usually it becomes a mixture of posts concerning who carry's what, and arguments over gun laws.

The OP mentioned firearms in the very first post of this thread. I don't see why it's so surprising it continued on that course.

 

[abraxas]

Why lock this thread? It's quite active which means people want to take part in the discussion.

If you don't like it, you're not obligated to read it.

I spent the day yesterday shooting photos. Today I do whatever I want.