Flash Sync Problem

[lennon33x]

Are you shooting outside with ambient light and flash or in the studio ? In the studio you dont need fast shutter speeds, just buy a flash meter to set your lights up

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I'm not a fan of flash meters. Yes they serve their purpose, but I cannot justify a purchase of one, as I wouldn't use it as often as one might think. Fans blowing hair, water droplets, pouring liquids...all of these would/could require fastER shutter speeds to freeze motion. I also like doing outdoor portraits at night with flash. I did one recently where myself, my sister and my wife were all jumping mid-air. Fastest SS I could get was 1/250 and there was still motion blur. No ambient.

I always use a flash meter i will have done my shoot will you are still messing with settings, you dont need fast shutter speeds to stop motion in a studio why can't you get your head round it ? It is down to flash duration

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I appreciate your super helpful reply.

My question was not about settings, it was about why a transmitter without HSS capabilities can sync at high shutter speeds.

Also, your use of a flash meter does not help me. You probably have gear that I don't and vice versa. Telling me to use flash meter because you do doesn't really convince me to use it. It's like a vegan telling a non-vegan to eat vegan just because...

In all honesty, your replies are no longer helpful. I would appreciate if you would refrain from adding any more input.

 

[gsgary]

I'm not a fan of flash meters. Yes they serve their purpose, but I cannot justify a purchase of one, as I wouldn't use it as often as one might think. Fans blowing hair, water droplets, pouring liquids...all of these would/could require fastER shutter speeds to freeze motion. I also like doing outdoor portraits at night with flash. I did one recently where myself, my sister and my wife were all jumping mid-air. Fastest SS I could get was 1/250 and there was still motion blur. No ambient.

I always use a flash meter i will have done my shoot will you are still messing with settings, you dont need fast shutter speeds to stop motion in a studio why can't you get your head round it ? It is down to flash duration

Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2

I appreciate your super helpful reply.

My question was not about settings, it was about why a transmitter without HSS capabilities can sync at high shutter speeds.

In all honesty, your replies are no longer helpful. I would appreciate if you would refrain from adding any more input.

Im sorry but you dont have a clue about using studio lighting

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[lennon33x]

I always use a flash meter i will have done my shoot will you are still messing with settings, you dont need fast shutter speeds to stop motion in a studio why can't you get your head round it ? It is down to flash duration

Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2

I appreciate your super helpful reply.

My question was not about settings, it was about why a transmitter without HSS capabilities can sync at high shutter speeds.

In all honesty, your replies are no longer helpful. I would appreciate if you would refrain from adding any more input.

Im sorry but you dont have a clue about using studio lighting

Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2

That's why it's called learning. It's an evolving process. To patronize and criticize someone because of their lack of knowledge in a certain area does not help them become better at their craft. It discourages them. Luckily for me, these small instances of discouragement are easily outweighed by my continuation to achieve better quality images, with and without the use of flash.

 

[gsgary]

I appreciate your super helpful reply.

My question was not about settings, it was about why a transmitter without HSS capabilities can sync at high shutter speeds.

In all honesty, your replies are no longer helpful. I would appreciate if you would refrain from adding any more input.

Im sorry but you dont have a clue about using studio lighting

Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2

That's why it's called learning. It's an evolving process. To patronize and criticize someone because of their lack of knowledge in a certain area does not help them become better at their craft. It discourages them. Luckily for me, these small instances of discouragement are easily outweighed by my continuation to achieve better quality images, with and without the use of flash.

Im not you just dont listen, i wont be wasting any more of my knowlege on you

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[gsgary]

Here you go, this was shot at 1/250 max sync speed, still not frozen because of flash duration

This was shot at 1/125, no difference in movement from first shot but half the shutter speed

 

[lennon33x]

So now that we've gotten through that...

Back to my question:

How is that a receiver that isn't hooked up to a HSS strobe/flashgun, only operates as HSS (meaning synching at high shutter speeds) when hooked up to an HSS system, but won't work the same way when used another way?

 

[gsgary]

So now that we've gotten through that...

Back to my question:

How is that a receiver that isn't hooked up to a HSS strobe/flashgun, only operates as HSS (meaning synching at high shutter speeds) when hooked up to an HSS system, but won't work the same way when used another way?

Because it is probably not

 

[lennon33x]

Are you shooting outside with ambient light and flash or in the studio ? In the studio you dont need fast shutter speeds, just buy a flash meter to set your lights up

Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2

I'm not a fan of flash meters. Yes they serve their purpose, but I cannot justify a purchase of one, as I wouldn't use it as often as one might think. Fans blowing hair, water droplets, pouring liquids...all of these would/could require fastER shutter speeds to freeze motion. I also like doing outdoor portraits at night with flash. I did one recently where myself, my sister and my wife were all jumping mid-air. Fastest SS I could get was 1/250 and there was still motion blur. No ambient.

I always use a flash meter i will have done my shoot will you are still messing with settings, you dont need fast shutter speeds to stop motion in a studio why can't you get your head round it ? It is down to flash duration

Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2

So...I recreated your little experiment.

I've got a Neewer 250w Strobe set at 1/8 power. Rokinon 85mm on Canon 5D set at f/1.4

This picture is at ISO 50, Shutter speed 1/200 (max x-sync speed of the Canon 5D).






This is ISO 160, Shutter Speed 1/2000 (beyond max x-sync speed of the Canon 5D)



You said that "you don't need fast shutter speeds to stop motion...it is down to flash duration."

This, is factual proof, that increased shutter speeds are in fact required to stop motion. Any photographer knows that in order to completely stop motion, you need to be at about 1/500 to 1/1000 to get decently sharp pictures. Depending on the speed of the subject, you could need something as fast as 1/4000 (motorcycles, etc.).

The whole point of my post was to understand why a trigger system, designed for HSS, connected to non-HSS strobes and and a camera limited to a max sync speed of 1/200 would take pictures without curtain banding at high shutter speeds. You talked to me like I was ignorant, when, despite your best efforts, I have proven you wrong.

Now, for any other TPF members, any idea to why I am able to do this?

 

[Derrel]

Ummm, a couple of things. You wrote, "that increased shutter speeds are in fact required to stop motion. Any photographer knows that in order to completely stop motion, you need to be at about 1/500 to 1/1000 to get decently sharp pictures. Depending on the speed of the subject, you could need something as fast as 1/4000 (motorcycles, etc.). "

Sorry, but that is not an accurate statement, and is based on incomplete understanding. A SLOW shutter speed, like say, 1/125 second can easily be used to stop very high-speed motion as long as the FLASH has a fast duration, and the exposure comes almost exclusively from the FLASH. In fact, a person can turn of all the lights in a room, and lock the shutter open, turn on a high-speed machine like say a lathe running at 800 R.P.M., and then fire, at leisure, a very short-duration flash unit placed close to a lathe and set at 1/64 power, and get a flash speed that's roughly 1/30,000 second in duration, and in that manner, take a high-speed flash image. This is in fact the way the VERY FIRST high-speed flash images were made in the 1850's (yes,the eighteen-fifties), in a darkened room, with light provided from a type of magneto-created electric spark. Most of today's water-droplet capturing nuts use a similar situation: a very low-powered electronic flash unit, placed fairly close to the water droplets, in a dim room. The key is that the f/stop and shutter speed must be set so that the ambient light is UNDER-exposed by a good deal; if the ambient is close to the flash in power level, then what is called "ghosting" will occur.

So, in most situations, using a normal flash synch speed of 1/60 (old days), or 1/125 second (1970's), or 1/200 to 1/250 second, it is easily possible to get STOP-MOTION, frozen, ultra-clear images using electronic flash that fires one,single,discrete "pop!" of flash output, at a sufficiently short time duration. Something like say an old Vivitar 285 flash at 1/4 power will provide a very brief flash duration, especially at close distances.

Flash at 1/1000 or more - Photo.net Portraits and Fashion Forum

This thread above talks about some different flash concepts, including the way HSS-enabled flash triggering systems triggering a SPEEDLIGHT can ALSO be used to trigger much slower-duration MONOLIGHT flashes, albeit at reduced Guide Number. This comes from Joseph S. Wiesniewski, one of *the* most technically savvy photographers the web has ever seen. Joe knows engineering, and is in fact, an engineer who used to work for one of the Detroit automobile companies before he retired.

A few years ago, when the Nikon D70 and D70s were current, there was a mini-movement of using those cameras to shoot flash in daylight, at speeds up to 1/8000 second. How? Those cameras, as well as the Nikon D1,D1h,and D1x, had both mechanical AND electronic shutters, will allowed simple PC-cord-connected flash firing with full synch, with regular speedlight, or monolights, as long as they were not connected to the camera's hotshoe, which would arbitrarily cut speed off at the top norma speed of 1/500 X-synch. SONY also made a numbner of cameras that had this type of shutter, up until the 10 MP era in their early d-slrs.

Anyway, I guess what's going on,according to Joe, is that with HSS-enabled triggers and speedlights, monolights can ALSO be triggered by slave, and will synchromize at high speeds, above the X-synch speed, albeit only on the long, slow-duration "trailing end" of the flash, after the t.5 or motion-stopping "PEAK" OF 1)BRIEF and 2)HIGH-power output has already been reached and dropped off, hence the slow speed (meaning poor motion stopping, due to looooong flash duration), and hence the lowered effective flash power.

Look at the graphs here: you can see the t.5 "peak power" on the far left side of the graphs; on the right hand side is the LOW-power, and sloooooow part, called the "tail". figure1.png

 

[Derrel]

So now that we've gotten through that...

Back to my question:

How is that a receiver that isn't hooked up to a HSS strobe/flashgun, only operates as HSS (meaning synching at high shutter speeds) when hooked up to an HSS system, but won't work the same way when used another way?

My guess is that what's happening with the HSS-enabled triggers is that they are providing the right time-sensitive information to get the shutter to fire so that the looooong, sloooooow t.1 segment of the monolight flash is what is being synchronized with.

Here's the Paul C. Buff article on flash duration. Paul C. Buff, Inc. - Flash Duration

"Normal" X-synch shutter time opening sequencing, like 1/200 on the 5D, is designed so that the shutter is open during the t.5 period, which is the short, brief period on the left of the flash power graph, when the flash duration is the shortest, AND the flash power is at its absolute PEAK. This gives what is called "full Flash Power Guide Number", or "Full GN".

However, most non-IGBT monolights have a very looooong, and sloooooow period on the right hand side of their flash output, which is lower in intensity, and around 3 full times longer than the t.5 period. By synchronizing with that looong, slooow, somewhat dim part of the flash output, it's possible to avoid the black barring that happens when the shutter is being told to sycnhronize with the briefest,earliest,brightest part of the flash burst. This is why Joseph W. in the post I linked to above is mentioning that the effective power of his 600 Watt-second monolight drops down to about an effective 100 Watt-seconds when used at high-shutter speed flash.

I think that might be the answer you're looking for.

 

[lennon33x]

Thanks Derrel!

 

[lennon33x]

Ummm, a couple of things. You wrote, "that increased shutter speeds are in fact required to stop motion. Any photographer knows that in order to completely stop motion, you need to be at about 1/500 to 1/1000 to get decently sharp pictures. Depending on the speed of the subject, you could need something as fast as 1/4000 (motorcycles, etc.). " Sorry, but that is not an accurate statement, and is based on incomplete understanding. A SLOW shutter speed, like say, 1/125 second can easily be used to stop very high-speed motion as long as the FLASH has a fast duration, and the exposure comes almost exclusively from the FLASH. In fact, a person can turn of all the lights in a room, and lock the shutter open, turn on a high-speed machine like say a lathe running at 800 R.P.M., and then fire, at leisure, a very short-duration flash unit placed close to a lathe and set at 1/64 power, and get a flash speed that's roughly 1/30,000 second in duration, and in that manner, take a high-speed flash image. This is in fact the way the VERY FIRST high-speed flash images were made in the 1850's (yes,the eighteen-fifties), in a darkened room, with light provided from a type of magneto-created electric spark. Most of today's water-droplet capturing nuts use a similar situation: a very low-powered electronic flash unit, placed fairly close to the water droplets, in a dim room. The key is that the f/stop and shutter speed must be set so that the ambient light is UNDER-exposed by a good deal; if the ambient is close to the flash in power level, then what is called "ghosting" will occur. So, in most situations, using a normal flash synch speed of 1/60 (old days), or 1/125 second (1970's), or 1/200 to 1/250 second, it is easily possible to get STOP-MOTION, frozen, ultra-clear images using electronic flash that fires one,single,discrete "pop!" of flash output, at a sufficiently short time duration. Something like say an old Vivitar 285 flash at 1/4 power will provide a very brief flash duration, especially at close distances. Flash at 1/1000 or more - Photo.net Portraits and Fashion Forum This thread above talks about some different flash concepts, including the way HSS-enabled flash triggering systems triggering a SPEEDLIGHT can ALSO be used to trigger much slower-duration MONOLIGHT flashes, albeit at reduced Guide Number. This comes from Joseph S. Wiesniewski, one of *the* most technically savvy photographers the web has ever seen. Joe knows engineering, and is in fact, an engineer who used to work for one of the Detroit automobile companies before he retired. A few years ago, when the Nikon D70 and D70s were current, there was a mini-movement of using those cameras to shoot flash in daylight, at speeds up to 1/8000 second. How? Those cameras, as well as the Nikon D1,D1h,and D1x, had both mechanical AND electronic shutters, will allowed simple PC-cord-connected flash firing with full synch, with regular speedlight, or monolights, as long as they were not connected to the camera's hotshoe, which would arbitrarily cut speed off at the top norma speed of 1/500 X-synch. SONY also made a numbner of cameras that had this type of shutter, up until the 10 MP era in their early d-slrs. Anyway, I guess what's going on,according to Joe, is that with HSS-enabled triggers and speedlights, monolights can ALSO be triggered by slave, and will synchromize at high speeds, above the X-synch speed, albeit only on the long, slow-duration "trailing end" of the flash, after the t.5 or motion-stopping "PEAK" OF 1)BRIEF and 2)HIGH-power output has already been reached and dropped off, hence the slow speed (meaning poor motion stopping, due to looooong flash duration), and hence the lowered effective flash power. Look at the graphs here: you can see the t.5 "peak power" on the far left side of the graphs; on the right hand side is the LOW-power, and sloooooow part, called the "tail". figure1.png

Derrel what I meant by saying the 1/500-1/1000 for stop motion was a general rule meant being applied to ambient light. The debate was that high shutter speeds in relation to ambient/flash don't stop motion. I tried to illustrate that with my pictures

 

[gsgary]

Ummm, a couple of things. You wrote, "that increased shutter speeds are in fact required to stop motion. Any photographer knows that in order to completely stop motion, you need to be at about 1/500 to 1/1000 to get decently sharp pictures. Depending on the speed of the subject, you could need something as fast as 1/4000 (motorcycles, etc.). " Sorry, but that is not an accurate statement, and is based on incomplete understanding. A SLOW shutter speed, like say, 1/125 second can easily be used to stop very high-speed motion as long as the FLASH has a fast duration, and the exposure comes almost exclusively from the FLASH. In fact, a person can turn of all the lights in a room, and lock the shutter open, turn on a high-speed machine like say a lathe running at 800 R.P.M., and then fire, at leisure, a very short-duration flash unit placed close to a lathe and set at 1/64 power, and get a flash speed that's roughly 1/30,000 second in duration, and in that manner, take a high-speed flash image. This is in fact the way the VERY FIRST high-speed flash images were made in the 1850's (yes,the eighteen-fifties), in a darkened room, with light provided from a type of magneto-created electric spark. Most of today's water-droplet capturing nuts use a similar situation: a very low-powered electronic flash unit, placed fairly close to the water droplets, in a dim room. The key is that the f/stop and shutter speed must be set so that the ambient light is UNDER-exposed by a good deal; if the ambient is close to the flash in power level, then what is called "ghosting" will occur. So, in most situations, using a normal flash synch speed of 1/60 (old days), or 1/125 second (1970's), or 1/200 to 1/250 second, it is easily possible to get STOP-MOTION, frozen, ultra-clear images using electronic flash that fires one,single,discrete "pop!" of flash output, at a sufficiently short time duration. Something like say an old Vivitar 285 flash at 1/4 power will provide a very brief flash duration, especially at close distances. Flash at 1/1000 or more - Photo.net Portraits and Fashion Forum This thread above talks about some different flash concepts, including the way HSS-enabled flash triggering systems triggering a SPEEDLIGHT can ALSO be used to trigger much slower-duration MONOLIGHT flashes, albeit at reduced Guide Number. This comes from Joseph S. Wiesniewski, one of *the* most technically savvy photographers the web has ever seen. Joe knows engineering, and is in fact, an engineer who used to work for one of the Detroit automobile companies before he retired. A few years ago, when the Nikon D70 and D70s were current, there was a mini-movement of using those cameras to shoot flash in daylight, at speeds up to 1/8000 second. How? Those cameras, as well as the Nikon D1,D1h,and D1x, had both mechanical AND electronic shutters, will allowed simple PC-cord-connected flash firing with full synch, with regular speedlight, or monolights, as long as they were not connected to the camera's hotshoe, which would arbitrarily cut speed off at the top norma speed of 1/500 X-synch. SONY also made a numbner of cameras that had this type of shutter, up until the 10 MP era in their early d-slrs. Anyway, I guess what's going on,according to Joe, is that with HSS-enabled triggers and speedlights, monolights can ALSO be triggered by slave, and will synchromize at high speeds, above the X-synch speed, albeit only on the long, slow-duration "trailing end" of the flash, after the t.5 or motion-stopping "PEAK" OF 1)BRIEF and 2)HIGH-power output has already been reached and dropped off, hence the slow speed (meaning poor motion stopping, due to looooong flash duration), and hence the lowered effective flash power. Look at the graphs here: you can see the t.5 "peak power" on the far left side of the graphs; on the right hand side is the LOW-power, and sloooooow part, called the "tail". figure1.png

Derrel what I meant by saying the 1/500-1/1000 for stop motion was a general rule meant being applied to ambient light. The debate was that high shutter speeds in relation to ambient/flash don't stop motion. I tried to illustrate that with my pictures

Back tracking ?

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[lennon33x]

Hardly.

I have proven you wrong when you stated, "Freezing motion with flash depends on the speed of your flash and not shutter speed."

I took two different pictures, with the same aperture and flash duration, only adjusting ISO for exposure and increasing shutter speed to stop motion...to do the exact opposite of what you said would happen.

 

[table1349]

Hardly.

I have proven you wrong when you stated, "Freezing motion with flash depends on the speed of your flash and not shutter speed."

I took two different pictures, with the same aperture and flash duration, only adjusting ISO for exposure and increasing shutter speed to stop motion...to do the exact opposite of what you said would happen.

Really, which one froze motion? Both photos have motion blur in the hands and you failed to trigger the camera at the proper time to get exploding baloon shoots. The only thing comparable in the two photos are the hands and both have what appears to be the same motion blur.