fstops, action shots, & depth of field

bluewaterjon · Jan 22, 2009

Hi. I am shooting for mags- I came to photography after first being a writer- and I am getting these assignments where I have to freeze the action of a jumping billfish from approx 20-80 yards. I'm shooting with a D300 and 700, with the Nikon f2.8VR.
In an attempt to get the best stop-motion pics, where the spray is suspended in midair, and no blur from the movement of the fish, I am using the highest shutter speeds I can. I've been in shutter mode; I jam the EV controls all the way up, which allows me to use shutter speeds up to 1/6400 of a sec, or if super bright outside, 1/8000. I'm shooting in RAW with the MB-D10 battery grip and getting plenty of frames per second..
My prob is, is that the depth that is in focus is VERY narrow- so narrow only maybe 8 inches is in focus. If, say, the fish's midsection is in focus, and the fish is facing to or away from me, often the front and back of the fish is out of focus. I look at other shooter's work and see that not only is the whole fish in focus- same type of thing I am shooting, jumping marlins- but some of the water ahead, and behind the fish, is in focus, and I'm envious.
A hack like me is thinking, ok, try higher fstops- that will allow for more things to be in focus than such a shallow range (forgive me if I am using the wrong terms). Problem is, if I use higher fstops, I have to use slower shutter speeds, and I don't imagine I will have the same ability to freeze the motion so well.
Thanks in advance for input.

BrandonS · Jan 22, 2009

Sounds like you need to raise the ISO or use a Speedlight if your close enough. I'm imagining though you haven't changed too many camera settings and you're probably on Auto ISO anyway. If that's the case you can raise the max ISO it'll select.

Ls3D · Jan 22, 2009

Welcome to the TRIANGLE! You are correct, stopping down will provide a wider DOF, ahh but those stops sure change the exposure time.

So where is ISO in your triangle? That D700 can be cranked up quite a bit... I guess your EV, or exposure compensation is in effect an ISO gain, but better to choose it yourself and consider it an important leg of the exposure triangle as you are working.

More about your lenses please. And I can't wait to watch this thread expand! :thumbup:

-Shea

Dubious Drewski · Jan 22, 2009

Well if I had the D700, I'd do 3 things in your situation:

1. Reduce your shutter speed. Are you aware of how fast 1/8000th really is? Jumping fish aren't moving that fast; you could easily get away with 1/4000th or possibly 1/2000th if you catch them at the apex of their jump.

2. Bump up the ISO to the maximum acceptable level (On the D700 and for a magazine, you might get away with up to ISO 3200, depending on the print quality). Most noise that looks horrendous on the monitor seems to be much less noticeable when printed. This is what I've noticed after shooting so many weddings and events at ISO 1600 and 3200.

3. I'd stop the aperture down to whatever you need to get the whole fish in focus, maybe f5.6 or something.

That should do it.

bluewaterjon · Jan 22, 2009

Hi folks, thanks for the replies so far.
I never considered the ISO's- I figured I'm outside, and since I am shooting for the mags and they want the cleanest pics, and I have plenty of light, I have been using 200, always- unless it's early am or late afternoon and the sun is setting. It never occurred to me to do anything BUT use 200.
Of course as you mentioned, the D300, unlike the D700, can't handle the higher ISO's w/o noise, so...of course i could use just the D700 and bump up the ISO, I guess you're telling me that would allow for higher # fstops (by that I mean, 2.8 is the lowest, so I could move up the chain to maybe f8 or higher) which would give me more depth of field?
One of you asked re: the lenses. I am using the Nikon 70-200 f2.8 VR. My probs are not coming from when I use my 24-70 for shorter range, as you can imagine.
Of course, if it's true, as you seem to be suggesting, that by using higher ISO's I can also use larger fstops (again, larger meaning the #, as in 2.8 is the smallest #, f8 would be a bigger #, although I understand that the 2.8 fstop has the larger aperture), and by doing so, I could get back some depth of field, why don't I do that?
The answer is that I have been using the D300 because the half frame makes my 70-200 lens have a lot more distance, right? It not being full frame, it crops the image, as you well know, so my 70-200 turns into what, close to a 300mm, or more, I can't remember, but the difference is significant. BTW I did buy the 1.4 converter, but then again, that slows the lens down to an F4, and I assumed I wanted to be at f2.8, wide open, always for action.
Anyway, please lemme know- it seems that you all are suggesting, use a higher ISO, that will allow me to use a higher # ftsop which will give me more depth of field.
Thanks very much folks!!
Jon

Flash Harry · Jan 22, 2009

if you can get 1/6400 shutter speed at 200 iso @F2.8 then leave the iso alone and close down the aperture to f5.6 or f8, this will give you a SS of 1/800 - 1/1600 giving you plenty DOF while also stopping motion, thats for any living thing on this planet.

As the lens your using is an f2.8 its also probable it isn't totally sharp at this aperture 2 stops to 5.6 should have it tack sharp, I dont have this lens so can't really judge its performance but most lens, although having a wide aperture, dont perform best at the ultimate setting. H

Ls3D · Jan 22, 2009

why don't I do that?

Because smaller number = larger aperture = less DOF.

If you have been locked to ISO 200, I bet you could get f/8 with the slightly slower shutter speeds, that were addressed above. D700.

I think the ISO breakthrough will change your experience quite dramatically, and the rest of your post will no doubt be inspected by others.

-Shea

Pure · Jan 22, 2009

Things to do:
BOOST YOUR ISO-Seriously you can get clean 800 ISO pictures from a D700 and D300, you Noiseware or such if you need to, but I doubt it.
Use a Monopod-It'll support your camera and you'll get less shake.
Use at least f/5.6 to get everything is focus.
Use a flash in auto FP mode to allow for high shutter speeds.

JerryPH · Jan 22, 2009

Whoa there a little... lol

First, you should not need thousandths of a second to freeze motion. A good 1/500th, 1/640th or 1/800th and that should be way more than enough to get what you want (clear water droplets flying off a flailing fish in the air as it jumps out of the water).

Using the D700, you could crank the ISO to 1600 if needed, which is for all intents and purposes as clean as 99% of all camera's ISO 200, and up the aperture to something like F/5.6. Now, you did not say what focal length lens you have. The DOF of a picture at F/4 and 50mm will be a LOT deeper than a picture at F/4 and 200mm.

Set the camera to aperture priority mode and make sure that your shutter speeds are controlled by the ISO. You can go to ISO 3200 and still get incredibly clean shots, and even in the late afternoon sun, you should still be getting shutter speeds well into the high 3-digit to low 4-digit speed ranges.

As the owner of a D700, I can tell you, that if you expose your shots right, you don't need any noise reduction until you go over ISO 3200.

Forget AutoFP mode... flash power falls off incredibly fast, and at 20-30 yards, its all but useless. AutoFP works wonderfully for giving you the ability to shoot wide apertures in the bright sun at distance of 20-25 feet MAXIMUM and closer (much less 20-80 yards).

Now, you always want the lowest ISO possible for the cleanest shot, of course... but this 1/8000 shutter speeds and rattling off 50 frames at 8FPS... TOTAL overkill.

With the D700, you have one of the best high ISO performing cameras on the MARKET. Also, unless you are telling me that your mag is printing out the pictures at 24X36 inches or bigger, there is NO reason you cannot use the D700 and crop. The pictures will be cleaner, you can use the higher ISO more effectively and shutter speeds will be higher.

dEARlEADER · Jan 22, 2009

Step 1 : Put you camera in Manual

Step 2 : Assign your aperture to 5.6

Step 3 : Assign you shutter speed to 1/1000

Step 4 : Enable the Auto ISO function (cap the ISO @3200)

You now have a deep(er) depth of field, a shutter speed to freeze action, and the Auto ISO function to balance the Exposure.

You will get a deeper depth of field naturally by using the D300, but more ISO lattiude with the D700.

I'd be using the D700 with the shutter release set continous high. You can even go way past 3200 ISO but should have enough with this combo.

gsgary · Jan 22, 2009

For a start shutter priority is the wrong mode to be shooting in you need to be in Aperture priority or manual if you want to control aperture, are you travelling infront of the fish if so 1/640 would be plenty

JerryPH · Jan 22, 2009

Ok, I went back and did a few experiments.

It seems water droplets don't defy physics and travel faster than we think... lol

Now, granted, I did not put much work into this, and quality of the shot was not the point, but... I took my D700 and took a few pics indoors (where it is a LOT darker than a normal day on the lake), to see what speeds were needed to freeze water.

My very rudimentary tests showed that by 1/500th there was good separation and that by 1/640th individual drops were clearly visible:

Which leads me to say that you don't really need speeds in the 1/2000th or higher range. What you *do* need, as per your own admission, is DOF. So... for a little leeway, set your shutter speeds to something like 1/800th, you don't need more, and open up the aperture as wide as it will go before maxing out at ISO 200. If you are not seeing at least F/8, crank up the ISO to something between 1600 and 3200 and you should be there.

BTW, if you don't think that the D700 does clean higher ISO, the shot above was done at ISO 3200.

JerryPH · Jan 22, 2009

dEARlEADER said:
Step 4 : Enable the Auto ISO function (cap the ISO @3200)

BZZZ! The AutoISO function doesn't work the way most people think. Even Thom Hogan suggests to not use it.

When I leave something to the camera, especially something like choice of ISO, it makes choices that I would not make in the same situation, and depending on what mode you are in (P, S, M, A), it does things VERY differently. Now I am not going to go into detail here as it is not necessary, but I do not suggest that the OP does this with the D700 if optimal quality are his primary goals.

Does it work, sure, but it is taking the lazy way out and your results will not be optimal compared to what they could be if you fix the ISO to a setting that you know will get the job done right and is as low as possible for best results.

JerryPH · Jan 22, 2009

gsgary said:
For a start shutter priority is the wrong mode to be shooting in you need to be in Aperture priority or manual if you want to control aperture, are you travelling infront of the fish if so 1/640 would be plenty

Not really, his primary goal was shutter speed... he was in the right mode, however, his limited experience did not let him get to where he needed and his DOF was limited but by his ISO, nothing else.

If he had left it in A-mode, shutter speed would change based on the lighting conditions and he COULD easily miss a shot.

Setting up his camera in shutter priority mode, and his ISO to a fixed higher setting, it would be the aperture that will wander a little. Now, manual mode is great if he had time to adjust exposure, but a fish in the air waits for no one, so what he should do is adjust his aperture so that he can consistently hit F/8 and if he hits a little bit darker of an area, it drops to F/5.6, still possibly enough and if he hit a brighter area, if it hits F/16, that is not detrimental. I would also use a center-weighted exposure setting just in case he hits a picture with a nice bright horizon... we do not want the camera setting the exposure for the horizon, but for his fish, which hopefully is more centered in his composition.

He should also be shooting in nothing but 14-bit RAW files in lossless compression mode... they give the most latitude for recovering highlights and shadows.

Also, he mentioned cranking exposure compensation all over the place... NOT NEEDED.

Exposure compensation is not to help you change the exposure levels as much as it is used to tell the camera how you want it to see the tones of the overall picture, like setting it so that snow looks white, and black cars look black.. and neither one looks grey.

gsgary · Jan 22, 2009

JerryPH said:
Not really, his primary goal was shutter speed... he was in the right mode, however, his limited experience did not let him get to where he needed and his DOF was limited but by his ISO, nothing else.

If he had left it in A-mode, shutter speed would change based on the lighting conditions and he COULD easily miss a shot.

Setting up his camera in shutter priority mode, and his ISO to a fixed higher setting, it would be the aperture that will wander a little. Now, manual mode is great if he had time to adjust exposure, but a fish in the air waits for no one, so what he should do is adjust his aperture so that he can consistently hit F/8 and if he hits a little bit darker of an area, it drops to F/5.6, still possibly enough and if he hit a brighter area, if it hits F/16, that is not detrimental. I would also use a center-weighted exposure setting just in case he hits a picture with a nice bright horizon... we do not want the camera setting the exposure for the horizon, but for his fish, which hopefully is more centered in his composition.

He should also be shooting in nothing but 14-bit RAW files in lossless compression mode... they give the most latitude for recovering highlights and shadows.

Also, he mentioned cranking exposure compensation all over the place... NOT NEEDED. Exposure compensation is not to help you change the exposure levels as much as it is used to tell the camera how you want it to see the tones of the overall picture, like setting it so that snow looks white, and black cars look black.. and neither one looks grey.

If he wants DOF he should be in Aperture priority( i always shoot in manual the only time i am out of manual is when i'm shooting with 2 camera , main camera on manual ), and i would not use machine gun tactics, when i'm shooting dog agility my camera is set to shot one shot at a time i have found over time that you will get the shot before and after the shot you want