Holy crap, there are so many options... Choosing my first dslr...

[jim84]

Hello, I have been considering purchasing a dslr for some time now, but have been sitting back and waiting. I figure as time passes, newer cameras come out, and prices go down on older ones. For example now I could get a used t2i, instead of an xsi, for probably the same price as if I had gotten a camera a few years ago... I also haven't had a real need for one, no great adventures or anything to photograph.

I've been making do with my point and shoot digital cameras. I don't remember what I had a few years back, but then I was given a Fuji XP10. I liked that it was waterproof, good for taking out snowboarding, or floating down the river in an inflatable raft. Well, it wasn't long before it ended up at the bottom of a lake. Best Buy has the better model the xp 20 for sale, with a floating strap. I got that and have been using it for probably a year and a half. What a piece of junk. If left on for a few minutes, it goes out of focus and will not focus on anything until it is turned off then back on. It takes a long time to turn on, and a long time to take a picture. It also is really bad in poor lighting conditions. The only good thing I can say about it is that it is waterproof. I tried contacting fuji about my troubles with the camera, but they only replied once and asked for a sample photo, and then never replied again (contacted them again, no response). Definitely not buying another fuji product.

So I know that I'm not going to be getting anything waterproof if I'm looking at a dslr unless I buy an expensive case. I have heard some are weather resistant? Pentax?

What I would like is something that can take sharp, clear photos in a variety of lighting conditions, and can focus and take the picture quickly. I'm tired of waiting for the point and shoot, only to find out by the time it got around to taking a picture, the subject was out of the frame. I would like to be able to take good pictures in low light conditions without a lot of noise, as well as be able to do long exposure shots. I would like to also take some HDR shots, and nature, landscapes, and birds/animals. I like the convenience offered with a point and shoot, that it's small and I can pack it around in my pocket, but the image quality and performance trade offs seem pretty big. I am intrigued by the mirrorless cameras but it seems if I want the larger sensors, and lens options I am going to be spending more then if I went with a dslr.

Video isn't really a concern, I have a decent HD camcorder that I don't use much. If the chosen camera has video, it's a bonus, but not necessity. One pet peeve with video is rolling shutter (and a pet peeve if this shows up in photos).

So my biggest irritants with my point and shoots have been SLOW and poor quality in low light.

I like macro photos so I think that would be something I would like to get into, in the future, but seems to be more of a lens issue. I have heard of using extension tubes to accomplish some macro photo's cheaper?

I am only looking into photography as a hobby, and pictures will only be shared online (unless I really get into it and change plans).

So I've been looking around, and there are just so many options out there. All of them have their strengths and their weaknesses, a lot are very similar, and hard for to determine which is best suited for me. Some have stabilization in the body, others on the lens? One thing I try to keep in mind is I know a couple people with Canon (rebel and t1i), so if I wanted to share or swap accessories or lenses, Canon would be the better choice. I'm not sure how often that would come up though.

I'm not sure of all the differences between the t(1,2,3) and the i versions. Nikon looks good too, D3100, 3200, 5100... I'm not even sure what I should be looking at from Pentax, though it seems most hobbyist/enthusiasts go with Canon or Nikon. Have I overlooked a Canon model that would suit me better? Which will give me better odds of picking up a good deal on used lenses?

I've read that the sensor size is more important then the number of megapixels, and it's better to get good lenses and a cheaper body than the other way around.

Sorry for the long post, I don't expect specific answers to every question, I am just trying to provide as much insight into my expectations or potential uses of a camera, I figure more information is more helpful than not enough.

Thanks for taking the time to get through this, and potentially offer your insight / suggestions. Perhaps I am over thinking it and should just choose one.

Additional note I forgot, I am not concerned with a flip out screen.

 

[Overread]

You're thinking down the right path - putting your needs on the table and then asking and making a choice based upon those requirements. That said I didn't catch/see a statement of a rough overall starting budget. Even if its only a rough guess giving a starting point helps a lot as it gives some clear structured starting point in the market to discuss from.

At the moment it seems like general shooting, landscape, HDR (that is more a method than a shooting element though so any DSLR can do that function - although some can be a little better with some auto shooting modes in this, but that tends to be a lesser issue most of the time) wildlife and macro are your key interests. Wildlife I'll pull out as that area can (sadly) get very expensive very quickly if you want a quality result - it tends to favour going for Canon or Nikon as they both have their own extensive ranges of long lenses over varying price groups as well as good quality support from 3rd party offerings. Other brands do have good options, but can be a bit more limited (which often means that they can be vastly more expensive as they only have quality and no or fewer cheaper options and often less middleground).

Macro any brand can do, though with hte DSLRs note that because of the bigger sensors you do end up with less depth of field; this can be very creative when used right and other times means that you have to be very careful when focusing and also might need to make use of focus stacking methods to get the depth you want in the photo.

You also seem to do a fair bit of travelling which honestly would make me want to suggest having a proper look at some of the mirrorless cameras on the market. The Olympus OMD is a very well made and weather resistant camera and the bonus of the whole line of mirrorless cameras is that they let you have quality with reduced size compared to a DSLR setup. For things like travel and wildlife this can be a big difference (mirrorless have smaller sensors which results in a smaller angle of view which means a shorter 200mm might be similar to a 400mm on a bigger DSLR setup).
Though its no less expensive than a DSLR setup the mirrorless can offer a very good alternative and bridge the market gap in size and weight between the point and shoots and the DSLRs whilst still providing a quality result.

 

[jim84]

Overread, thank you very much for the detailed response.

Sorry I forgot to mention a budget, I'm not exactly in a position where I can only spend so much, but at the same time, as a hobby I don't want to spend too much. I'm focusing on my mortgage first off, hobbies second. However to start out, I think I'd like to keep it under about $700 (canadian). I know this can become a fairly pricey hobby, especially once extra lenses are included. I've been checking out some of the boxing week deals from stores like best buy and future shop, and a kit with say a t2i and a 18-55 and 75-300 lens is about $630. Though as mentioned in the first topic, I am very open to looking at used cameras. I've seen d3100 and t1i's for example used for about $350, but usually only with the 18-55 lens, so if I add a longer zoom lens I am getting closer to the price of a new bundle. That said, my intention is if I buy new, to avoid these big box stores and find a smaller local camera shop to deal with.

I don't think a dslr would be accompanying me on any ski trips however, I would be worried of damaging the camera. I will probably keep my point and shoot for that (though I was considering putting in a trackable geocache and sending it on a trip).

I'm not going to be on any quest to find exotic wildlife, but I would like to be up to the task of getting a picture some if I come across it. It isn't my main focus, but with the dslr or mirrorless, the option to get a better suited lens is there. I would like some kind of zoom lens to start with though. I don't know what amount of zoom is accomplished with my xp20, but something similar would be a nice starting place. A bit more zoom would be nice, but I don't think I need a really long lens to start with.

I did look into the mirrorless a bit, and the olympus line did stand out. The OM-D does look like something I would like, but I don't quite want to spend that much just yet. This is where my waiting game has come in. Perhaps when the price drops a bit on those it may be something for me to look at.

As I said I don't specifically need a camera just yet. I would like one, to practice with and learn on. Though I am hoping to do a cross Canada trip within the next couple years (it may be 2014, I want my mortgage on my apartment paid off first), and was definitely hoping to have a good camera by that time. Mirrorless has been very intriguing to me, but my friend has a lot of fun with his t1i, I always start looking around when sale time comes on. I figure with Christmas there may be an abundance of used gear showing up on craigslist.

A very likely scenario is that I will take the information and suggestions given to me under advisement, and wait out a bit of a price drop... The portability of the mirrorless is nice, and the size of dslr setups has been one factor I consider.

Thanks again.

 

[Overread]

Size and weight seem to be key components to your choice, honestly when it comes to factors like that I would strongly suggest finding a local camera shop with good stock that you can have a hold and a feel of the items on sale. Also have a look at some of the bigger options down the road (ie those big lenses). This will give you a real world view on the differences in size, function and weight of many of the setups and might well show that certain options will (either short or long term) simply not be as well suited to what you want than others.

You could also see if there is a local camera club you could attend, most are very welcoming to new members and new photographers and many people will often have different setups and be more than happy to let you have a look at them.

 

[jim84]

Thanks again

I stopped by one of the chain stores and played with some of their cameras... I like the feel of the d3100 over the t2i, also the kit lens on the canon felt cheaper, as far as image quality, I don't know. I also looked at a Sony Nex, it seemed fairly well built. It is considerably smaller, though adding larger lenses brings it up in size to where I won't just be packing it around like a point and shoot. Unless I wind up where I can find a comparable mirrorless (image quality and feature wise) for the price of a dslr, I think I will likely go the route of a used dslr, and get used to the size. Used mirrorless comparable to what I'd be looking for in a dslr (entry level like a t2i or d3100 for example), would be good too, but their so new I don't think there's as much of a market for them used?

Now if I'm looking at a used system, what should I be looking for? The obvious, like cosmetic damage, but other things? I've seen shutter count mentioned in used ads, I guess it depends on the camera, but what would be considered high, and low, and is this information available in the cameras menus?

 

[Overread]

Shutter count is a bit of a lottery - in itself the shutter count limits vary body by body and the limits are only a rough estimation (based upon testing) of when a shutter will fail. Higher end bodies will have a higher limit, but its always a lottery, some cameras will fail early and some will keep going far beyond. It's a good value to know if stated in an ad, but its not the be all and end all of a transaction.

After that its mostly a case of ensuring that the cameras various functions work - check that wheels and controls function and respond to operation without lag or problems and that all the buttons depress normally. You'll always see some polished wear on the body where its held (unless its a very underused second hand item).

The second hand market is interesting though as it throws up a lot of options - Canon side I would say look to the midrange and anything after a 40D would be a good buy (so 40D and 50D - the 60D is not superior to the 50D though as with the 60D canon split their midrange into a lower end 60D and a upper end 7D). I can't say what to consider for nikons side since I don't shoot them - also keep an eye on the features of the top end rebel cameras; whilst the 40D is very capable even today, it is older and it might be that many of its bonuses are going to be body design and some operation control options instead of processing and image quality (and ISO) performances.

 

[jim84]

Thank you.

One thing I want to make sure I avoid is the jello effect / rolling shutter. I know it's more of an issue with video, which I am not concerned about. Will I need to worry about it much in the entry level dslr's like the d3100, t2i, or a mid range d40 or 50 as you suggested (in photos)? I had a cheapo Olympus point and shoot years ago and it was terrible for taking jello shots. Is there a site I should look at to compare this among different models, or at this level of camera is it really only an issue on video?

 

[CAlbertson]

Thank you.

One thing I want to make sure I avoid is the jello effect / rolling shutter. I know it's more of an issue with video, which I am not concerned about. Will I need to worry about it much in the entry level dslr's like the d3100, t2i, or a mid range d40 or 50 as you suggested (in photos)? I had a cheapo Olympus point and shoot years ago and it was terrible for taking jello shots. Is there a site I should look at to compare this among different models, or at this level of camera is it really only an issue on video?

Don't worry about it. The d3100 is just like shooting slide film in a film body. The image is NOT clocked off the sensor until after the shutter is closed. This is an SLR which means the viewfinder is optical and uses a moving mirror. Complelety different from video. The image quality of the d3100 is as good as whatever lens you put on. YOU are the "bottleneck" not the camera.

One more advice. Buy the system is this order:

1) get the body and a "kit" 18-55mm lens with VR (Nikon) or IS (Canon) these lenses are good values and the image stabilization works well in both.

2) shoot at least 1,000 (serious) frames. That is of subjects you care about and put some thought into. Yes with only the one lens you will miss some subjects. There are plenty of others. The point is to see what subject you miss so missing is a "Good Thing". maybe even shoot more, 1,000 is the minimum.

3) What did you miss because of your limited equipment? Is the direct on-camera flash horrible or did you find 18mm is not wide enough? or did you find that f/5.6 is hopelessly to slow for the depth of field and low light shoots you wanted to get. or (very unlikely) you subject was very far away an you could not get closer because of some physical barrier like a fence or a river. In that unlikely case you could have used a telephoto lens

Most beginner assume they will need the long 300mm zoom lens and then find themselves leaving it at home and then go buy a 50mm or 35mm f/1.8 or lighting equipment of a macro lens. So shoot 1000+ frames and only then buy whatever it is you need to get those missed shots.

Repeat the 1000+ shoots and then buy gear cycle as much as you like. Do NOT be one of those people who just buys gear and never shoots.

 

[jim84]

Thanks for your advice.

On the subject of rolling shutter, I'm not sure how the image sensor works. I know with a dslr, the mirror shoots the image up to the prism, then to my eye, and the mirror moves out of the way when the picture is taken allowing the light to the sensor. What you are saying is that with a photo, the entire sensor is exposed at the same time (this would depend on the shutter, since it doesn't vanish, it moves, exposing certain parts first?) and then after the shutter is closed, the image is read? Rather than it being read as it's exposed, from top to bottom? This is something I don't know a lot about, but I know shows up in photos on cheaper cameras, and in video as well. I assume in most cases it wouldn't be an issue in general. I did see it in videos taken with the d3100.

On to your further advice. Thank you very much, those sound like some very logical steps. If I do wind up with more than the kit 18-55, if will be if there was a kit with the 2 lenses (18-55 and 55-200 for example) on for a deal which makes it a better choice, or if I find the right used deal, though I will likely look for the used one only with the one lens, as you recommend.

 

[nycphotography]

I did look into the mirrorless a bit, and the olympus line did stand out. The OM-D does look like something I would like, but I don't quite want to spend that much just yet. This is where my waiting game has come in. Perhaps when the price drops a bit on those it may be something for me to look at.

My honest suggestion would be a Gx1 kit in the $460 us ballpark. Gets you in the game with a highly capable camera at a modest price.

That leaves money for an external flash, and maybe an older "legacy" manual focus / manual aperture lenses or two (w/ a $15 adapter to fit the camera).

The tradeoff is that it's not a "SLR/viewfinder" body, though you can buy an electronic viewfinder to add on for times when its needed (such as outdoors or with longer zoom lenses).

The upside is that you can grow your lens collection, and eventually decide if you want to move to an OM-D (or whatever the next version is). The camera is smaller and more portable... and w/ the 20mm f/1.7 panny "pancake" it's even pocketable.

The downside is that u43 lenses aren't necessarily any cheaper, excepting for the fact that you can use legacy manual lenses... and manual focus lenses almost REQUIRE the viewfinder.

If you think the artsy fartsy manual lenses and fiddling around for one picture side of photography is less likely to appeal to you, and you'll probably be more into getting the shot at the little league game or the gymnastics match, then maybe the SLR will almost certainly be a better choice. Canon (??? I dunno canon fer beans), Nikon (D5100) and Sony Alpha (a35) all have models in the $450ish ballpark, and all are quite good.

 

[jim84]

I think I'm going to be buying one, I just need to hear back from the seller. It is a d3100 with 18-55 and 55-200, with box and accessories, for $370 canadian. I just have to make sure it is in good condition.

 

[Derrel]

I think I'm going to be buying one, I just need to hear back from the seller. It is a d3100 with 18-55 and 55-200, with box and accessories, for $370 canadian. I just have to make sure it is in good condition.

NOW THAT sounds like an excellent value!!! seriously!!! D3100 here, with NO lens is $299-$325. Getting a D3100 plus those two lightweight zooms would be excellent value, and a handy kit to have, especially for just $370 Canadian!!!

 

[jim84]

He wasn't very clear in his ad. It sounded like it only had the 55-250, so I thought it was one lens. I emailed and asked given the d3100 with the 18-55 was on for $400 (boxing week), what his best price would be (different lens, but same camera, with one lens). The ad said he was asking $450 firm. He replied the best he could do was $370. Well I was also looking at a d3100 with only the 18-55 used, asking $350, so I told him I would keep it in mind since I was looking at the other, with the lens that would be better for me to start with, at which point he told me that this is for the 18-55 and the 55 - 200. So I told him I can come pick it up tomorrow, hopefully it works out. The best part is he's local, I don't know his address but he's within say 15 - 20 mins, vs the others I was looking at about an hour away. Apparently he bought it last month, and has barely used it, I don't know why he didn't just return it, but assuming it all is in working order without damage, I've gotta say, seems like I really lucked out.

Thanks again to everyone who provided me with some insight and suggestions.

PS, sorry I really need to stop using commas so much and end sentences.

 

[goodguy]

My honest suggestion would be a Gx1 kit in the $460 us ballpark. Gets you in the game with a highly capable camera at a modest price.

That leaves money for an external flash, and maybe an older "legacy" manual focus / manual aperture lenses or two (w/ a $15 adapter to fit the camera).

The tradeoff is that it's not a "SLR/viewfinder" body, though you can buy an electronic viewfinder to add on for times when its needed (such as outdoors or with longer zoom lenses).

The upside is that you can grow your lens collection, and eventually decide if you want to move to an OM-D (or whatever the next version is). The camera is smaller and more portable... and w/ the 20mm f/1.7 panny "pancake" it's even pocketable.

The downside is that u43 lenses aren't necessarily any cheaper, excepting for the fact that you can use legacy manual lenses... and manual focus lenses almost REQUIRE the viewfinder.

If you think the artsy fartsy manual lenses and fiddling around for one picture side of photography is less likely to appeal to you, and you'll probably be more into getting the shot at the little league game or the gymnastics match, then maybe the SLR will almost certainly be a better choice. Canon (??? I dunno canon fer beans), Nikon (D5100) and Sony Alpha (a35) all have models in the $450ish ballpark, and all are quite good.

I also think you should consider the G1X.
The G1X is more confortable then a DSLR and has sensor size almost same size as a DX body so its well worth considering.
Its also very good for Macro shots.

 

[skyy38]

I know you don't like Fuji, but I'm going to suggest one anyways:

Fujifilm Finepix HS30 EXR.

$249.00 at Costco through January and this baby has a *lightning* fast shutter response, just for starters.

Yeah , it's a "bridge, point and shoot, superzoom" but things have vastly changed since a "few years ago".......

But even a few years ago, I managed to get this shot:

88th Sunset | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

with a mere "point and shoot".......believe it or not with NO editing.....

Try the HS30 and if you think it is "without"...then just return it....