Making $ From Trade Shoot?

[DGMPhotography]

Sooooooooo.... you're shooting images that people are being aroused by and your approach is, "Well, might as well make a buck off it?"... ummm... sorry Daryll, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.. I don't for a second think your intention is to create porn, but if you're going to take that approach, I honestly believe that it's going to hurt you.

I'm simply trying to maximize my revenue streams. But I agree that it feels perhaps a little scummy in this case. And probably not worth the effort. Plus, I do have to consider what people would think if they found out I was going that route. The model is appealing, though. Having people "support" your creative work, enabling you to do it more.

If this is, or you're worried about this happening, then these people are not your peers. They may be associates, people you know, or even relatives, but they're not peers.

I have to admit, I'm puzzled by all these comments about retaining anonymity. Outside of a few photographers, almost none of whom I engage socially, my circle comprises primarily military & retired military folks, and people (almost exclusively male) from the trades, predominantly mechanics & HD mechanics. In other words, NOT creatives. They're aware of my work, and occasionally if one of them sees an image on my facebook feed they'll make a comment about an attractive female, but that's as far as it goes.

Another side to this coin is your clients; it's not going to do your business a lot of good if people learn that you're not proud of your work. The #1 thing you have to be as an entrepreneur, especially in a creative field is a shameless self-promoter. "Hey, I'm Daryll... this is my work!" If I were a female client for whom you'd done boudoir work and I find out you're trying to remain anonymous, I'm going to think there's something wrong with the work, and I'm hardly likely to recommend or use you again.

I have to disagree with this. I can't close myself off from people just because they don't appreciate or understand my work. I don't want to live in an echo chamber. And many of these people are important to me in other ways, but not my target market for boudoir. Many of the models I've worked with on boudoir actually prefer that I have a separate/anonymous account too. We have many of the same mutual friends, and some of these models don't want people to see this work either. For instance, one model said she's always wanted to do boudoir, but her family would kill her if they saw it. We are simply tailoring our content to our audience.

On this, we disagree. Why? Let's say you've done a couple's wedding. They're very happy with the work. They also own a small business and want product photography done. Because they know you as a wedding photographer and NOT as a generalist, are they going to call you? Maybe, but in all probability they're going to look for a product photographer, and the one they choose might well not be you. I think it's fine to divide your work up into categories, but you need to make sure it all comes back to you. You want to people to think of your name when they need a photograph. Full stop.

I have had wedding clients reach out to me asking, "hey, do you also do real estate?" It may not be super common, but I think if you do a good job for them, even if they know you as a wedding photographer, many will still ask you anyway. With Richmond being such a competitive market, I have to specialize, or at least have the appearance that I do.

 

[paigew]

I haven't read the responses before mine, but I would not share the full albums. Only share your favorites.

 

[paigew]

...People would pay to see my photos because there are thirsty dudes from Guatemala with cash to blow.

That makes it sound an awful lot like a porn feed...

...I do plan to integrate bridal boudoir into my wedding work at some point (which is why I'm practicing now), but in general, at least in my circles, it's interpreted differently. I posted ONE classy boudoir photo on my main account and next thing you know my mom is calling me saying she can't believe I'm getting girls naked; all these guys message me with thirst comments; and other conservative people forming impressions of me that I just don't care to foster. I don't care what people think of me, but I do care about how it impacts my business. So at least for right now, I'm avoiding it and just using my boudoir Instagram account.

It sounds to me like you're travelling in the wrong circles. Okay, Mom.. Mom's Mom and you can't change that. Everyone else? You need to get away from all of that. The line between boudoir and porn can be a very fine one, and you need to ensure that your clients know on which side of that you fall.

To be taken seriously as a boudoir photographer, especially a male boudoir photographer you have to be absolutely above reproach. You don't want anyone around you that is going to make comments that might in any way be construed as offensive to your models. I also think you need to decide on a course and stay on it. Adding to a product line is fine, but having a multitude of product lines under different brands is not a recipe for success. What you [should] want is for people to recognize your name as a skilled photographer and to commission YOU based on their knowledge of YOUR work. Hiding behind a bunch of different brands isn't, IMO, the way to go.

People are gonna think what they want to think about my work. To elaborate... Despite it being tasteful boudoir, there are still people out there who are gonna get off from it. Maybe I'm too capitalistic, but I feel that if I'm going to have that reaction from those people regardless, I may as well monetize it, right?

As for the support portion.. I know it's not much, but as much as we may scoff at it, the model works. It's part of the crowdfunding economy. $1 won't make a huge difference, but if 100 people pledge $1 a month to you, that's big. That's $12,000 in a year. I know a girl who does boudoir and artistic nude modeling and is making $2000 a month by keeping it behind a paywall. I'm not saying I like it, but it seems foolish to not capitalize on that.

Everything else, I agree with you, but the internet makes that difficult. If something of mine is posted publicly, I can't necessarily control who does or doesn't see it.

I wish I did only have one brand, and that I only liked one type of photography. That would make things so much easier. But my interests are too varied. I want to make so many different things, and art is meant to be seen. But from a business standpoint, I have to separate the types of work from each other so I get hired. It's hard work, but I think it actually is a recipe for success, at least for me personally. However, my main priority is my wedding work. So whenever I'm busy with that, everything else takes a back seat. But when I'm not booked, I still want to create, and that's where the other brands come in.

Yes this is porn and this is unethical. You are capitalizing on women's bodies without their explicit consent. I would absolutely 100% not advise doing this. This speaks volumes about your view towards women and I'm sure will be a huge turn off when clients find out you might sell a photo of them looking attractive/sexy to a porn site. My god. :*(

 

[tirediron]

.... I'm sure will be a huge turn off when clients find out you might sell a photo of them looking attractive/sexy to a porn site. My god. :*(

In fairness Paige, I don't think there was ever any thought that Daryll would sell the images to a porn 'site, rather that he was postulating the idea of monetizing them on his own social media feeds to people who he knows are not looking at them to appreciate their artistic merits.

 

[DGMPhotography]

...People would pay to see my photos because there are thirsty dudes from Guatemala with cash to blow.

That makes it sound an awful lot like a porn feed...

...I do plan to integrate bridal boudoir into my wedding work at some point (which is why I'm practicing now), but in general, at least in my circles, it's interpreted differently. I posted ONE classy boudoir photo on my main account and next thing you know my mom is calling me saying she can't believe I'm getting girls naked; all these guys message me with thirst comments; and other conservative people forming impressions of me that I just don't care to foster. I don't care what people think of me, but I do care about how it impacts my business. So at least for right now, I'm avoiding it and just using my boudoir Instagram account.

It sounds to me like you're travelling in the wrong circles. Okay, Mom.. Mom's Mom and you can't change that. Everyone else? You need to get away from all of that. The line between boudoir and porn can be a very fine one, and you need to ensure that your clients know on which side of that you fall.

To be taken seriously as a boudoir photographer, especially a male boudoir photographer you have to be absolutely above reproach. You don't want anyone around you that is going to make comments that might in any way be construed as offensive to your models. I also think you need to decide on a course and stay on it. Adding to a product line is fine, but having a multitude of product lines under different brands is not a recipe for success. What you [should] want is for people to recognize your name as a skilled photographer and to commission YOU based on their knowledge of YOUR work. Hiding behind a bunch of different brands isn't, IMO, the way to go.

People are gonna think what they want to think about my work. To elaborate... Despite it being tasteful boudoir, there are still people out there who are gonna get off from it. Maybe I'm too capitalistic, but I feel that if I'm going to have that reaction from those people regardless, I may as well monetize it, right?

As for the support portion.. I know it's not much, but as much as we may scoff at it, the model works. It's part of the crowdfunding economy. $1 won't make a huge difference, but if 100 people pledge $1 a month to you, that's big. That's $12,000 in a year. I know a girl who does boudoir and artistic nude modeling and is making $2000 a month by keeping it behind a paywall. I'm not saying I like it, but it seems foolish to not capitalize on that.

Everything else, I agree with you, but the internet makes that difficult. If something of mine is posted publicly, I can't necessarily control who does or doesn't see it.

I wish I did only have one brand, and that I only liked one type of photography. That would make things so much easier. But my interests are too varied. I want to make so many different things, and art is meant to be seen. But from a business standpoint, I have to separate the types of work from each other so I get hired. It's hard work, but I think it actually is a recipe for success, at least for me personally. However, my main priority is my wedding work. So whenever I'm busy with that, everything else takes a back seat. But when I'm not booked, I still want to create, and that's where the other brands come in.

Yes this is porn and this is unethical. You are capitalizing on women's bodies without their explicit consent. I would absolutely 100% not advise doing this. This speaks volumes about your view towards women and I'm sure will be a huge turn off when clients find out you might sell a photo of them looking attractive/sexy to a porn site. My god. :*(

You should read the thread before making a comment like that. And no one said ANYTHING about selling photos to a porn site. That's deplorable. I'm honestly stunned you have the audacity to make a comment like that about me without even reading the thread.

The whole point of this was to learn and explore the options for sharing this type of work. We were all having an open, professional discussion, and you instead skipped the context and decided to make a judgment against me. For what reason? Are you hoping to score some SJW points? Your laziness is not an excuse to blatantly make stuff up about me. I support women, and have always fought for their respect and empowerment.

 

[paigew]

.... I'm sure will be a huge turn off when clients find out you might sell a photo of them looking attractive/sexy to a porn site. My god. :*(

In fairness Paige, I don't think there was ever any thought that Daryll would sell the images to a porn 'site, rather that he was postulating the idea of monetizing them on his own social media feeds to people who he knows are not looking at them to appreciate their artistic merits.

Oh, I get that. But it is still no different. He specifically said that he knows people will pay to basically get off on photos he takes of his models.

You should read the thread before making a comment like that.

OMG I READ THE THREAD!!! EESH! You said you want to make money off sexy photos you took of your clients by posting them to shady websites where people from other countries pay money to get off on them. Without consent from said models. I'm wondering why you don't see the issue here? What if I took a getting ready bridal photo and posted it there, or a maternity photo...or a graduating seniors photo? It is not okay to post any image you think you might make a buck off (from a perv) to a site designed to do just that. Your clients trust you, TFP or not.

 

[paigew]

I realize that your intent was not to bring harm (or pervs) to your models, but please take time to consider the point of a woman, a photographer at that, who often takes images like you are talking about...this is not okay and I do not think it will be in the best interest of your business. I'm not sure how old you are, but I find that a younger man with no wife or daughter might have a hard time seeing how wrong this is and how it damages the trust your models and clients have in you. Maybe picture an image of yourself being sold to a similar site, and knowing that men from around the world were paying money to get off on an image of you...without your consent, that you were not profiting off of.

 

[DGMPhotography]

.... I'm sure will be a huge turn off when clients find out you might sell a photo of them looking attractive/sexy to a porn site. My god. :*(

In fairness Paige, I don't think there was ever any thought that Daryll would sell the images to a porn 'site, rather that he was postulating the idea of monetizing them on his own social media feeds to people who he knows are not looking at them to appreciate their artistic merits.

Oh, I get that. But it is still no different. He specifically said that he knows people will pay to basically get off on photos he takes of his models.

You should read the thread before making a comment like that.

OMG I READ THE THREAD!!! EESH! You said you want to make money off sexy photos you took of your clients by posting them to shady websites where people from other countries pay money to get off on them. Without consent from said models. I'm wondering why you don't see the issue here? What if I took a getting ready bridal photo and posted it there, or a maternity photo...or a graduating seniors photo? It is not okay to post any image you think you might make a buck off (from a perv) to a site designed to do just that. Your clients trust you, TFP or not.

You clearly did not read the thread. At what point did anyone say anything about shady websites? Patreon is not a shady website, and your impression of that points towards your ignorance more than anything.

The question I proposed was how to share boudoir work, and what the alternatives were. I also never said ANYTHING about doing this without consent. I specifically said "as long as they're okay with it." I mentioned it might be a matter of talking to the model about it, and giving them the same rights to do it as well. Additionally, I do have the copyrights, including right to sell if I wanted, to all photos, and that is expressed clearly in my contract which I go over with my models. As a courtesy I always give the model the option to review the photos and veto anything they don't like.

The comment about thirsty dudes from Guatemala was anecdotal. Like I said, a model friend of mine gave me those exact words. The whole reason I was considering this was because of what she told me. She said about 1/3 of her audience is people who appreciate and support her artwork. The other 2/3 are "thirsty dudes from Guatemala." She said that those dudes are gonna make comments about her anyway, so it was empowering to her to take their money through Patreon. At least that way, they have to pay her, and she turned what could be an otherwise negative, objectifying experience, into a revenue stream. It'd be stupid not to. So that's where this thread came in. I came here seeking advice and insight on doing the same thing, but as the photographer. And wondered if there was any difference between paid and TF work.

The way I said some things could have maybe been clearer, but I was playing the role of devil's advocate as I sought out answers. You don't know me, and I really don't appreciate you making comments like that about me.

 

[Derrel]

I really think you should be paying these models and create something more to the point. Patreon Has sort of become a softcore and boudoir Avenue, where people can pay a small amount per month for custom sets Of images which are not available to the general public.

I really do not think TF photos is the right way to go. If you want to shoot softcore boudoir, Then hire some models and pay them.

 

[DGMPhotography]

I really think you should be paying these models and create something more to the point. Patreon Has sort of become a softcore and boudoir Avenue, where people can pay a small amount per month for custom sets Of images which are not available to the general public.

I really do not think TF photos is the right way to go. If you want to shoot softcore boudoir, Then hire some models sand pay them.

From what I've learned from this discussion (from those who properly contributed), I would agree with you.

I think if my goal was to make money off those photos, then I should be hiring models for the explicit reason of doing so. But, that's not really my goal, so I've concluded to just post my favorites from TF shoots on Instagram, and then just have a private portfolio for when people want to see the rest of my work. Again, the disconnect for me is that I'm used to always saying, "check out the rest of the photos on Facebook," so I was trying to find an alternative. The alternative, I believe, is just to not post them all.

 

[paigew]

I really think you should be paying these models and create something more to the point. Patreon Has sort of become a softcore and boudoir Avenue, where people can pay a small amount per month for custom sets Of images which are not available to the general public.

I really do not think TF photos is the right way to go. If you want to shoot softcore boudoir, Then hire some models sand pay them.

From what I've learned from this discussion (from those who properly contributed), I would agree with you.

I think if my goal was to make money off those photos, then I should be hiring models for the explicit reason of doing so. But, that's not really my goal, so I've concluded to just post my favorites from TF shoots on Instagram, and then just have a private portfolio for when people want to see the rest of my work. Again, the disconnect for me is that I'm used to always saying, "check out the rest of the photos on Facebook," so I was trying to find an alternative. The alternative, I believe, is just to not post them all.

This is great news.

In response to your other reply, you are correct, I do not know you and I tried not to be too rude in my reply to you. I understand you were looking to hear other viewpoints and I respect that from you. I just wanted my response to portray what a huge issue I think (most) women would have with this. And not only a detriment to your photography business, but to photographers as a whole. We want our clients to trust us, fully Also, you don't want some mad model to start a viral #metoo post about you LOL that would just not be good for biz

edit to add after re-reading my original reply. I don't think I was very rude. And people before me DID comment on the porn-like content of the website, along with you yourself stating shady peeps might be visiting. I'm just giving you a straight up "devils advocate" opinion here....not trying to be rude or disrespectful.

 

[DGMPhotography]

This speaks volumes about your view towards women

What you said here is the issue. You are making assumptions about my view towards women. And I really don't think that's fair.

 

[paigew]

This speaks volumes about your view towards women

What you said here is the issue. You are making assumptions about my view towards women. And I really don't think that's fair.

Dude, I'm sorry....your thread suggests that you are taking boudoir photos (TFP) of women, and while you do have permission to share the images, you do not have explicit permission to sell the images to websites. Legally, I suppose you can do whatever you want because I'm sure your contract allows for use however you see fit. But ethically, I think you can see how this would be an issue or you would not have posted this thread.

Facts: You want to sell images of scantily clad women to websites of questionable character (without their explicit consent). Specifically to sell images that appeal to buyers who would be using them in inappropriate, most likely, sexual ways. How is this not wrong? How is this something that someone respectable would do? A respectable photographer would line up a TFP shoot detailing the exact usage of these images, and possibly negotiate pay with the model. The issue is the women think you are using the images for social media and blogging purposes. Using them any other way without their consent, considering the image content, is unethical, especially given the image content.

 

[DGMPhotography]

This speaks volumes about your view towards women

What you said here is the issue. You are making assumptions about my view towards women. And I really don't think that's fair.

Dude, I'm sorry....your thread suggests that you are taking boudoir photos (TFP) of women, and while you do have permission to share the images, you do not have explicit permission to sell the images to websites. Legally, I suppose you can do whatever you want because I'm sure your contract allows for use however you see fit. But ethically, I think you can see how this would be an issue or you would not have posted this thread.

Facts: You want to sell images of scantily clad women to websites of questionable character (without their explicit consent). Specifically to sell images that appeal to buyers who would be using them in inappropriate, most likely, sexual ways. How is this not wrong? How is this something that someone respectable would do? A respectable photographer would line up a TFP shoot detailing the exact usage of these images, and possibly negotiate pay with the model. The issue is the women think you are using the images for social media and blogging purposes. Using them any other way without their consent, considering the image content, is unethical.

Wow, you're really a piece of work. Twisting my words and everything.

Again, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN WITH THEIR CONSENT. I've said that multiple times. What about that is unclear?

And again, I'm NOT selling anything to any website. Patreon is a social network for content creators.

And I already explained the reason for this thread. If you're just going to pick and choose things to take out of context, then I see no reason to continue this discussion.

 

[paigew]

So, one thought that crossed my mind, is to use Patreon, and have a private gallery using a third party site, or as a secret page on one of my other sites, and only give access to people who have "pledged" on Patreon. It's a popular monetization/content regulation model with this type of content, but, I'm not sure how people typically handle it. As the photo taker, I know I have the copyright, which my contract stipulates, but from an ethical standpoint, should I be using their pictures in this paywall model? What about shoots where the client pays me? Or should I pay them?

Haha, it's just how it is. Patreon and sites like it are the king of content monetization. People would pay to see my photos because there are thirsty dudes from Guatemala with cash to blow. And the other portion is people who actually really love and want to support my work. And that's not an exaggeration. A female influencer friend of mine told me exactly that.

..
People are gonna think what they want to think about my work. To elaborate... Despite it being tasteful boudoir, there are still people out there who are gonna get off from it. Maybe I'm too capitalistic, but I feel that if I'm going to have that reaction from those people regardless, I may as well monetize it, right?

Look I am not one to judge. In fact, even right now, I am not judging you. I'm just trying to bring to light what your comments imply and how they might be/will be/are taken by people with different views than your own. Which I thought was your purpose of starting this post?

I have bolded your comments that I feel sound inappropriate coming from a professional photographer.

While you do say that you have consent to share the images, your words, that you yourself typed make it sound like the consent was/is not all encompassing. And that you understand there may be some ethical issues with doing this, in this manner.

From what I've learned from this discussion (from those who properly contributed), I would agree with you.

I think if my goal was to make money off those photos, then I should be hiring models for the explicit reason of doing so. But, that's not really my goal, so I've concluded to just post my favorites from TF shoots on Instagram, and then just have a private portfolio for when people want to see the rest of my work. Again, the disconnect for me is that I'm used to always saying, "check out the rest of the photos on Facebook," so I was trying to find an alternative. The alternative, I believe, is just to not post them all.

Also this bolded comment implies that you previously thought it would be okay to use the images without explicitly outlining how the images would be used (being used for profit). Forgive me if I got the wrong impression from your posts.