Paper/chemicals and grain?

Discussion in 'The Darkroom' started by nealjpage, Sep 28, 2007.

  1. nealjpage

    nealjpage multi format master in a film geek package

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    Ok, so odd question: Do some paper and chemical combos enhance grain more than others? I just spent the evening in the darkroom with negatives shot on Efke 100 developed normally in D-76. I can't see any grain, but anyways. I enlarged a 35mm to 8x10 and got very noticeable grain. I used arista.ed paper and Dektol for processing. Is it the neg or is it my paper and chemical combo?
     
  2. JC1220

    JC1220 TPF Noob!

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    It could be a number of things... did you enlarge to fit the full negative frame on 8x10 or did you magnify beyond and crop to 8x10? Exposure of the film, processing technique, length of film developing time, paper grade - although you are using plastic paper so may not be the issue.

    Efke in D76 should produce grain free results in most situations. Without seeing what you are talking about I would hazard to guess it is a result of the exposure in that particular negative. How do other negatives in other lighting conditions and exposures print on that roll? See what is different and that should help you figure it out.

    You could always sell all your small format equipment and buy an 8x10 and contact print, grain will never be a problem again.:mrgreen:
     
  3. nealjpage

    nealjpage multi format master in a film geek package

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    But what if I want a 16x20 print?? I don't think my 23c will support a negative that big. But I'll look. :lol:

    It was pretty much full frame. There was a bit of cropping, but not much. I'll toy with things this weekend and try to redo a print with less cropping and see what happens. And play with some other negs to see what happens. Maybe it's just an anomaly.
     
  4. JC1220

    JC1220 TPF Noob!

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    Easy, get a 16x20 camera:lmao: One tends to be more contemplative when each click of the shutter costs 10-20 dollars :confused: Its alwasy fun when you get so excited about what you have found on the ground glass that you forget to pull the darkslide too!

    I would get a good strong loupe and look at the negs as well.
     
  5. Hertz van Rental

    Hertz van Rental TPF Noob!

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    Grain becomes more noticeable in a print if contrast and 'sharpness' are improved.
    A newer, punchier EL lens can suddenly reveal grain you didn't know you had.
    Other factors such as the enlarger itself, the light source, the f-stop, the evenness of the paper, the paper, the developer, the development process... all can affect contrast, sharpness and detail accutance.
     
  6. cblkdog

    cblkdog TPF Noob!

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    What do you mean by "developed normally"? I mean, what temp, dilution, agitation, etc. There are alot of factors involved and as JC1220 said you shouldn't have much grain, if any. The temp and dilution of Dektol will change grain also. Grain isn't necessarily bad.
     
  7. nealjpage

    nealjpage multi format master in a film geek package

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    I mean "normally" to describe 68 degrees, 1:1 dilution, and 5 seconds of agitation every 30 seconds for the specified time. I looked at the negative through an 8x loupe and it looks like it's in the negative. Now I'm befuddled. I thought the advantage of a slower speed film is decreased grain. Oh well. I'll see what I can make of it.
     
  8. JC1220

    JC1220 TPF Noob!

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    It can be like hearding cats...

    how long was the dev. time?

    Hertz mentioned some good points.
     
  9. nealjpage

    nealjpage multi format master in a film geek package

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    Here's the result. My apologies to Jen for putting a picture of her kids on the internet. But it's all in the name of science. :thumbup:

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Hertz van Rental

    Hertz van Rental TPF Noob!

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    I'm not sure what you are saying here.
    Are you asking if a print can enhance grain? Or have you produced some negs with more grain than usual?
    If the former see above.
    If the latter...
    Many things can affect the size of grain in a neg. Over-exposure and over-development will increase grain size - which is why push processing makes an image grainier.
    The major cause of granularity in B&W negs is not grain at all but micro-reticulation.
    If any of the solutions the film is put into are more than a few degrees warmer or colder than the preceeding one the gelatine can suffer a kind of thermal shock. In extreme cases the gelatine clumps and crazes (like mud in a drought). Mostly it does it on a very reduced scale and it looks like excessive grain.
    Dev, stop, fix and all of the wash water should be within a few degrees of each other. If you still get grain then it's an exposure/development problem.
     
  11. deanimator

    deanimator TPF Noob!

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    The print you´ve put up doesn´t look too bad on my monitor at all...tonal range looks excellent, but I can´t make out the grain perhaps due to the resolution of the monitor.

    What size is the print, and what are you comparing it to?
     
  12. nealjpage

    nealjpage multi format master in a film geek package

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    I think, now that I look at it more, that it's bad negatives. This might've been a roll that I used straight D76 rather than 1:1, so I think that the grain is just being enlarged when I make prints. The scanned print above is an 8x10, and I'm comparing it to TX developed in D76 and enlarged to the same size. I haven't had much time to play lately, so I'll try to drop the contrast a bit and see what happens.
     

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