Shooting F1.2 During The Day. CPL Enough? or ND Filter Needed?

[Albino_Pikachu]

I'm new to this forum so I apologize if this isn't posted in the right section.

I've got the opportunity to use the Canon 85mm F1.2 during an up coming beach trip. I'll mainly be using it for night shots, however while I've got it I'd like to use it during the day as well. Now obviously I'd be fine using it during the day if I just stop it down, but the whole point of the lens is to use it at F1.2. I'm wondering if my B+W CPL will cut out enough light for me to use it at F1.2 during the day? Or do you think I'd need to get some sort of ND filter whether that be 2, 3, or 4 stops to make it usable at that aperture?

I'll be shooting with my Canon 80D which can go to 1/8000, however I don't know if that will be fast enough with just the CPL.

The fastest lens I own is the Tokina 11-16 which is F2.8. Now I just tested that lens and without the CPL it just shot an average of 1/4100 sec. With the CPL it did an average of 1/1500. However I know the beach is a much brighter place and that might not cut it down enough on a lens shooting at 1.2.

Any thoughts or advice (other than I should just stop it down and avoid the issue all together) would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

 

[ronlane]

Just because a lens has an aperture of 1.2 doesn't mean you have to use it. The whole point is getting sharp images not just shooting a lens wide open.

Note, I am not telling you to stop down and none of us will be able to tell you what will or won't work during daylight because the light can/will change from minute to minute. CPL and/or ND filters will cut the amount of light down and may help with what you are trying to do. What CPL or ND filter will really depend on the amount of light that you have that given day and time.

 

[fmw]

Why is the point of using any fast lens to use it at maximum aperture?

 

[jaomul]

If you want to use the f1.2 wide open (and why wouldn't you, it costs enough) 1/8000 at f1.2 at iso 100 will be overexposed on a bright day. I suggest you buy a variable Nd filter that fits the lens, only use it when needed, and no need to buy one that goes from one to 500 stops, 3 or 4 stops should be loads

 

[chuasam]

If you're using a CPL to cut the light, you are using it for the wrong reason. Just to an ND Filter...they're generally not too expensive. Beware of colour cast though.

 

[Albino_Pikachu]

Just because a lens has an aperture of 1.2 doesn't mean you have to use it. The whole point is getting sharp images not just shooting a lens wide open.

Note, I am not telling you to stop down and none of us will be able to tell you what will or won't work during daylight because the light can/will change from minute to minute. CPL and/or ND filters will cut the amount of light down and may help with what you are trying to do. What CPL or ND filter will really depend on the amount of light that you have that given day and time.

Understandable. I'm aware stopping down will result in sharper images in the majority of cases. I get the chance to use a 1.2, I want to use it at 1.2 in all conditions to get the full experience of the lens. Not saying I won't stop it down at all. Just don't want to limit myself and not be able to use it at 1.2 because I don't have some other piece of equipment that will allow me to.

If you want to use the f1.2 wide open (and why wouldn't you, it costs enough) 1/8000 at f1.2 at iso 100 will be overexposed on a bright day. I suggest you buy a variable Nd filter that fits the lens, only use it when needed, and no need to buy one that goes from one to 500 stops, 3 or 4 stops should be loads

I figured it will be.I will look into the variable ones. Thanks

If you're using a CPL to cut the light, you are using it for the wrong reason. Just to an ND Filter...they're generally not too expensive. Beware of colour cast though.

What I was getting on about with the CPL is more so a "kill two birds with one stone" type thing. I already have it, so why buy something else if that will work to cut enough light on top of adding contrast and doing it's normal task. It sounds though that it won't cut down enough light so I'll most likely be investing in an ND filter whether that be variable or not. I'm not sure yet. I've read that the cheaper ones tend to screw the color tone and add vignette so I'll do some research before I buy one.

I've got about a month before I go on this trip so I've got time to hear what people say, get feedback, and do research. I appreciate the input

 

[jaomul]

Cpls cut down on light, but they also cut down on certain frequencies of light, they are meant for reducing glare and enhancing skies etc, likely make a portrait look fairly poor

 

[astroNikon]

Depending up How Bright it is,
and dependent upon what /how you are shooting,
would depend upon how many stops for an ND filter to cut down,

Are you taking pics of the water crashing on a pier and want 1 second of water flow, or maybe 2 ??
Taking pictures of people on a windy beach and need a high shutter speed ? Slower shutter speeds?

I recommend you get at least a 4 stop ND, if not several different NDs. Then you can choose the best one for the situation. I have several B+W ND filters including, if I recall correctly ND2 (1 stop), ND4 (2 stops), ND16 (4 stops) , ND64 ( 6 stops), ND1024 (10 stops) .

on generally bright days I'll put the ND2 on my 80-200/2.8 as a starting point just to knock down the super bright light.

here's more info about them ==> Neutral-density filter - Wikipedia

 

[table1349]

I own the 85 f1.2. It is very much my go to portrait lens. With that said, if you want to get the full experience of the lens you need to concentrate on the subject, the composition and the look you are going for, not just wanting to shoot some shots at f1.2. I rarely shoot that lens that wide open. When I do it is because I need that aperture due to the lack of light, not because I want to shoot it wide open in broad daylight.

 

[photo1x1.com]

My experience is that even 1.8 is overexposed at times. CPL usually cut 1.5 stops of light, so it might just be OK.
Be aware though that the skin is suffering a lot. I think it does look good at times and for beach shots with people I use it 50% of the time.
Here are two examples (wideangle shots though, I hardly use 50mm or even 85mm with a CPL)

Is it the 85mm f1.2 "I" or "II"? If it is "I", I´d rather stop it down a bit. I have never been really satisfied with the results at f1.2.

 

[TCampbell]

Shooting wide-open at f/1.2 will create a depth of field which is perilously thin. E.g. if you're taking a headshot and you focused on the eyes, then the eyes will likely be focused... but not much else will be (including the nose, the ears, etc.)

You will likely want to use an ND filter (probably a couple of them) if shooting in daylight.

There's no fixed amount of light that the CPL will block because it's all based on the angle of rotation for the filter (the tuning) vs. the angle of origin for the light. It could block 2/3rds of a stop... it could block 1.5 stops.

When you use an ND filter, it will block the number of stops that it claims (at least a good ND will). That makes it more of a known quantity as compared to the variable nature of a CPL.

Outdoor full mid-day sunlight follows the sunny-16 rule ... at f/16 the shutter can be set to the inverse of the ISO speed. So at ISO 100, that's 1/100th sec.

But at f/1.2... from f/16 that's about 7.5 stops of light where each "stop" doubles the amount of light.

If you aren't using flash, then you can set a high shutter speed e.g. 1/8000th sec.

From 1/100th you can get maybe 6.25 of those stops back by going to 1/8000. But you'll still need to cut more light. You'll likely minimally need a 2-stop ND filter (ND 0.6). I always have a 2 stop & 3 stop ND in my bag.

But if you are using a flash, you can take a shot at any speed higher than your flash sync speed unless the flash supports high-speed-sync (HSS). For most cameras, the max flash speed is somewhere between 1/160th and 1/250th sec. For your 80D it's probably 1/250th sec.

1/250th cuts only about 1.25 stops from 1/100th. So you'll need another 6.25 stops if you don't have a flash with HSS -- that's a lot.

If your flash supports HSS then you can shoot faster but even this gets tricky because the flash has to rapidly pulse as the curtain shutter sweeps across the image rather than firing a single pulse when the shutter is completely open. Since it has to rapidly pulse, it has to reserve enough power for each pulse and that means it cannot fire at full power. It also means it'll likely have longer recycle times between shots.

 

[Albino_Pikachu]

Cpls cut down on light, but they also cut down on certain frequencies of light, they are meant for reducing glare and enhancing skies etc, likely make a portrait look fairly poor

Noted. Thanks

Depending up How Bright it is,
and dependent upon what /how you are shooting,
would depend upon how many stops for an ND filter to cut down,

Are you taking pics of the water crashing on a pier and want 1 second of water flow, or maybe 2 ??
Taking pictures of people on a windy beach and need a high shutter speed ? Slower shutter speeds?

I recommend you get at least a 4 stop ND, if not several different NDs. Then you can choose the best one for the situation. I have several B+W ND filters including, if I recall correctly ND2 (1 stop), ND4 (2 stops), ND16 (4 stops) , ND64 ( 6 stops), ND1024 (10 stops) .

on generally bright days I'll put the ND2 on my 80-200/2.8 as a starting point just to knock down the super bright light.

here's more info about them ==> Neutral-density filter - Wikipedia

I'll mainly be shooting friends and family on the beach or by the pool, beach wildlife like birds and crabs and the flowers and seashells. Normal beach stuff nothing super fancy. Getting a shot of some shells with the motion of the water around it would be nice and a strong ND filter would be great for that I'm sure (with it on my tripod)

I'm really considering the Variable ND now as it allows me to adjust for what I need without having to stack or change filters. I'll check that link out. Thanks for the input

I own the 85 f1.2. It is very much my go to portrait lens. With that said, if you want to get the full experience of the lens you need to concentrate on the subject, the composition and the look you are going for, not just wanting to shoot some shots at f1.2. I rarely shoot that lens that wide open. When I do it is because I need that aperture due to the lack of light, not because I want to shoot it wide open in broad daylight.

Understandable. For all I know I'll hate it wide open during the day, but I want to at least have the ability to try it and see. I might actually end up using it at 2.8 or 4 a lot and realize I don't like trying to use it at 1.2. It'll be my first time using something that can go that wide open so it's all about experimenting and seeing how I feel about it. I certainly can't afford to buy this lens so I want to experience as much of it as I can while I'll have the chance to use it.

My experience is that even 1.8 is overexposed at times. CPL usually cut 1.5 stops of light, so it might just be OK.
Be aware though that the skin is suffering a lot. I think it does look good at times and for beach shots with people I use it 50% of the time.
Here are two examples (wideangle shots though, I hardly use 50mm or even 85mm with a CPL)

Is it the 85mm f1.2 "I" or "II"? If it is "I", I´d rather stop it down a bit. I have never been really satisfied with the results at f1.2.

The shot on the left looks really well balanced. It'll be the "II". Thanks for the input

Shooting wide-open at f/1.2 will create a depth of field which is perilously thin. E.g. if you're taking a headshot and you focused on the eyes, then the eyes will likely be focused... but not much else will be (including the nose, the ears, etc.)

You will likely want to use an ND filter (probably a couple of them) if shooting in daylight.

There's no fixed amount of light that the CPL will block because it's all based on the angle of rotation for the filter (the tuning) vs. the angle of origin for the light. It could block 2/3rds of a stop... it could block 1.5 stops.

When you use an ND filter, it will block the number of stops that it claims (at least a good ND will). That makes it more of a known quantity as compared to the variable nature of a CPL.

Outdoor full mid-day sunlight follows the sunny-16 rule ... at f/16 the shutter can be set to the inverse of the ISO speed. So at ISO 100, that's 1/100th sec.

But at f/1.2... from f/16 that's about 7.5 stops of light where each "stop" doubles the amount of light.

If you aren't using flash, then you can set a high shutter speed e.g. 1/8000th sec.

From 1/100th you can get maybe 6.25 of those stops back by going to 1/8000. But you'll still need to cut more light. You'll likely minimally need a 2-stop ND filter (ND 0.6). I always have a 2 stop & 3 stop ND in my bag.

But if you are using a flash, you can take a shot at any speed higher than your flash sync speed unless the flash supports high-speed-sync (HSS). For most cameras, the max flash speed is somewhere between 1/160th and 1/250th sec. For your 80D it's probably 1/250th sec.

1/250th cuts only about 1.25 stops from 1/100th. So you'll need another 6.25 stops if you don't have a flash with HSS -- that's a lot.

If your flash supports HSS then you can shoot faster but even this gets tricky because the flash has to rapidly pulse as the curtain shutter sweeps across the image rather than firing a single pulse when the shutter is completely open. Since it has to rapidly pulse, it has to reserve enough power for each pulse and that means it cannot fire at full power. It also means it'll likely have longer recycle times between shots.

Wow, that was a lot of good info. Thank you. I've never heard of the "sunny 16" rule, but I'll definitely look into that. Sounds a bit over my head, but I'm sure it's simple once understood. I don't plan on using a flash (I know it helps out especially in bright light), just don't have one yet unfortunately.

It seems like I'll end up needing to get an ND filter which is no big deal. This is why I asked for opinions to help me figure this out before I get down there and can't really try out the lens in the way I'd like to. Like I previously mentioned, I might hate shooting it at 1.2 and end up stopping it down and not needing the ND filter. Better to have it though and see than to not have it and never know.

I'll keep reading up on different filters both solid and variable and figure out which style or type would be best. I appreciate all the advice.

 

[480sparky]

........I want to use it at 1.2 in all conditions to get the full experience of the lens. ............

What, exactly, do you think 'the full experience' of a lens is?

 

[fmw]

........I want to use it at 1.2 in all conditions to get the full experience of the lens. ............

What, exactly, do you think 'the full experience' of a lens is?

Apparently using it in an extreme manner since it is an extreme lens. Some of us like to stop down to get better image quality but, apparently, those of us who do are becoming obsolete.

 

[Albino_Pikachu]

........I want to use it at 1.2 in all conditions to get the full experience of the lens. ............

What, exactly, do you think 'the full experience' of a lens is?

........I want to use it at 1.2 in all conditions to get the full experience of the lens. ............

What, exactly, do you think 'the full experience' of a lens is?

Apparently using it in an extreme manner since it is an extreme lens. Some of us like to stop down to get better image quality but, apparently, those of us who do are becoming obsolete.

I'd like to be able to use the entire aperture range it was designed with instead of being forced to step it down because it's too bright outside. I wouldn't buy a car with tires that could only be used when it's dry outside. I'd buy tires that could be used in both wet and dry conditions so I could use the car all the time. Just like wanting to put an ND filter on a lens so it can be used wide open all the time instead of being forced to step it down.

I stated that I might try this thing and hate using it at 1.2. I might leave it stepped down and not use it at 1.2 at all. However, since I've never used a fast lens like this before I want to at least put my self in a position with the right equipment so I can try it out and experience the lens as a whole.

I don't shoot with my 24-105 at f4 all the time, nor do I shoot my 11-16 at f2.8 all the time. I like knowing that I can though if I want to. I understand that shooting wide open isn't the best thing to do, nor will it give the sharpest highest quality photos. I'm just simply trying to experience everything this lens can do for the short period of time I'll have it. That is all