So.. this is a rant about a model who didn't pay for a shoot and expects un-watermarked images.

[Mr. Innuendo]

Suddenly, its not something you do for fun, not something you do for the sake of it, but it is something you need to slave to. You no longer take photos to express yourself, you take them to cater to your client/employer/general audience.

Why do so many people believe that?

I make my living with my camera. Every dime I earn I earn because I'm a photographer. When I'm shooting for a client, yes, I'm catering to what they want. They're paying me, so they get to call the shots.

But I still shoot for me. I don't do it as much anymore (thankfully; means I'm earning more), but I still do it a lot. I'm hardly a slave to it. It is something I do for fun. I do take photos to express myself. I shoot, to borrow your words, for the sake of it.

It's been that way for the better part of a decade and, frankly, I don't see it changing anytime soon.

 

[DavidVote]

Suddenly, its not something you do for fun, not something you do for the sake of it, but it is something you need to slave to. You no longer take photos to express yourself, you take them to cater to your client/employer/general audience.

Why do so many people believe that?

I make my living with my camera. Every dime I earn I earn because I'm a photographer. When I'm shooting for a client, yes, I'm catering to what they want. They're paying me, so they get to call the shots.

But I still shoot for me. I don't do it as much anymore (thankfully; means I'm earning more), but I still do it a lot. I'm hardly a slave to it. It is something I do for fun. I do take photos to express myself. I shoot, to borrow your words, for the sake of it.

It's been that way for the better part of a decade and, frankly, I don't see it changing anytime soon.

Like I've said, there are exceptions. I'm truly happy for you, and applaud you for being able to do that.

I personally wouldn't be able to stand taking photos full time and stay pumping out the same photos after photos that has no meaning to me.

I'm off to college soon, I'm planning on majoring in electrical engineering or computer science/engineering.

Afterwards, maybe, and hopefully, I'll make enough money to fund photography and buy whatever I want.

 

[Mr. Innuendo]

I personally wouldn't be able to stand taking photos full time and stay pumping out the same photos after photos that has no meaning to me.

Who's doing that?

I challenge myself to find new things to shoot. I could go to the beach every day and shoot the sunrise, or go shoot the Bridge Of Lions every night, but why? Take your photos and find something new. For me, challenging myself keeps ideas fresh.

Even when I'm shooting for clients I'm not shooting the same thing time after time.

I do consider myself fortunate that I can truly make a living doing what I enjoy doing. If I had to sit in an office all day, everyday, it would drive me out of my mind.

 

[photoguy99]

Who's pumping out the same photos over and over?

Uh. Lots of people?

Google up some local photographers and look at the work.

 

[Mr. Innuendo]

Who's pumping out the same photos over and over?

Uh. Lots of people?

Google up some local photographers and look at the work.

There's no need; not really interested. Mine was more of a rhetorical question.

I don't really worry about what other photographers do. If someone is shooting the same old thing, and gets bored, they have only themselves to blame.

There's plenty out there to shoot.

 

[photoguy99]

It is pretty much the essence of much of retail photography (lookit me using my new words!) that much of it is the same.

Some people hire you to make some pichers a lot like those pichers you made last week. That's a big big slice of the market. If these are your clients, then by definition, you're pumping out the same old stuff over and over. Lots of photographers quite like this kind of work, because they find solving the technical problems interesting. "How can I make basically those same photos, in THIS room, where there's no room for my key light?' and 'How can I make basically those same pictures of this person who is, well, quite differently shaped?' and 'How can I make those same pictures in total darkness without a flash?' and so on.

It sounds like David simply doesn't want to go there. I don't see why that should bother anyone.

 

[DavidVote]

It is pretty much the essence of much of retail photography (lookit me using my new words!) that much of it is the same.

Some people hire you to make some pichers a lot like those pichers you made last week. That's a big big slice of the market. If these are your clients, then by definition, you're pumping out the same old stuff over and over. Lots of photographers quite like this kind of work, because they find solving the technical problems interesting. "How can I make basically those same photos, in THIS room, where there's no room for my key light?' and 'How can I make basically those same pictures of this person who is, well, quite differently shaped?' and 'How can I make those same pictures in total darkness without a flash?' and so on.

It sounds like David simply doesn't want to go there. I don't see why that should bother anyone.

By taking the same picture over and over again, like you said, is also the best and safest buissness decision

If photography is your business and your bread and butter, you WILL want to make the safest decision.

Take a look at all the major mainstream music artists for example.

 

[W.Y.Photo]

That still doesn't mean you can't do far different work on the side. Noone's going to look at some great commercial photographers art they made and be like "phooey! I'll never buy another portrait from him again because he shot a landscape at a tilt with an 85mm lens and its 2 stops underexposed!!"

 

[Braineack]

I'm sure the most famous photographers out there all but in their dues before being able to make money shooting whatever they want.

 

[Nevermore1]

This is the release I had the model signed. For obvious reasons I have removed any personal information.
After each shoot, I always go over in detail of the contract with the model.

Perhaps I may have been negligent in letting the model know that her images would be watermarked.
I have always done this with TFP shoots and not once have I had a model backlash at me for watermarking my images.

The way I see it, is if a model comes to me and expects not to pay, I can deliver the photos however I please to them.
Afterall, it's the contract.

But I see now that what I am doing is not "industry standard" and will consider changing my business methods.


Edit: Granted I am not a lawyer so therefor may be flaws in this contract. (Typos, wording, etc..)

I'll admit I haven't yet had the chance to read all the replies but the second paragraph you wrote here really stuck out to me. You wrote that you review the contract with the models after the shoot??? I would think that would be something that is gone over in detail before the shoot or even on the phone after you have emailed them a copy of it for review before you have finalized the schedule for the shoot. It would save both sides lots of time if the terms and what was expected of each party was clear before things were done.

 

[Designer]

I'll admit I haven't yet had the chance to read all the replies but the second paragraph you wrote here really stuck out to me. You wrote that you review the contract with the models after the shoot??? I would think that would be something that is gone over in detail before the shoot or even on the phone after you have emailed them a copy of it for review before you have finalized the schedule for the shoot. It would save both sides lots of time if the terms and what was expected of each party was clear before things were done.

If you've read this, you should recognize that it isn't actually a contract, but a model release.

It's best not to overthink it. NedM is aware that he needs to work on it.

All of it.

 

[NedM]

Quick update:

I have since reached out to the model and apologized for my negligent ways. In turn, she has also apologized and we both have come to a mutual agreement.
We agreed that there was miscommunication on both our ends. We did not set expectations or standards beforehand and therefor it is both our faults for what happened. I have also sent her the images from her photo-shoot in full resolution with no watermarks. The model also agreed to give credit whenever possible and not sell the photos to any third party services. She has even told me that she will send work whenever she can my way. I think someone mentioned in this thread that most confidence photographers do not even bother with watermarking their photos. I have decided that I will no longer deliver watermarked images to clients. I now understand that a TFP is a collaboration between two artists. It is a benefit to learn, test, and hone my skills in photography. A model is giving me their time, so I should have the courtesy of giving them clean usable images. I have also updated my contract tremendously, although I still have a lot to learn when it comes to release/licencing. (If there is anyone willing to look at my current model release and perhaps help me draft a better one, that would be awesome!)

The model and I are now a good grounds and looking to work once again in the future.

So I think it's safe to say that this long thread about contracts, models, and lawyers could come to an end now.

Or not.

 

[DavidVote]

Quick update:

I have since reached out to the model and apologized for my negligent ways. In turn, she has also apologized and we both have come to a mutual agreement.
We agreed that there was miscommunication on both our ends. We did not set expectations or standards beforehand and therefor it is both our faults for what happened. I have also sent her the images from her photo-shoot in full resolution with no watermarks. The model also agreed to give credit whenever possible and not sell the photos to any third party services. She has even told me that she will send work whenever she can my way. I think someone mentioned in this thread that most confidence photographers do not even bother with watermarking their photos. I have decided that I will no longer deliver watermarked images to clients. I now understand that a TFP is a collaboration between two artists. It is a benefit to learn, test, and hone my skills in photography. A model is giving me their time, so I should have the courtesy of giving them clean usable images. I have also updated my contract tremendously, although I still have a lot to learn when it comes to release/licencing. (If there is anyone willing to look at my current model release and perhaps help me draft a better one, that would be awesome!)

The model and I are now a good grounds and looking to work once again in the future.

So I think it's safe to say that this long thread about contracts, models, and lawyers could come to an end now.

Or not.

I love you <3

 

[Vtec44]

@NedM, I think you're going to do well in life.

 

[Forkie]

Quick update:

I have since reached out to the model and apologized for my negligent ways. In turn, she has also apologized and we both have come to a mutual agreement.
We agreed that there was miscommunication on both our ends. We did not set expectations or standards beforehand and therefor it is both our faults for what happened. I have also sent her the images from her photo-shoot in full resolution with no watermarks. The model also agreed to give credit whenever possible and not sell the photos to any third party services. She has even told me that she will send work whenever she can my way. I think someone mentioned in this thread that most confidence photographers do not even bother with watermarking their photos. I have decided that I will no longer deliver watermarked images to clients. I now understand that a TFP is a collaboration between two artists. It is a benefit to learn, test, and hone my skills in photography. A model is giving me their time, so I should have the courtesy of giving them clean usable images. I have also updated my contract tremendously, although I still have a lot to learn when it comes to release/licencing. (If there is anyone willing to look at my current model release and perhaps help me draft a better one, that would be awesome!)

The model and I are now a good grounds and looking to work once again in the future.

So I think it's safe to say that this long thread about contracts, models, and lawyers could come to an end now.

Or not.

This is wonderful news, @NedM ! I had a genuine smile on my face as I read your post!

Look at that! You've rebuilt a relationship and will possibly even have a better relationship with this model than you would have before and she has even offered to send more work your way if she can. Plus, she's an agency model by what I could gather from your first original post, so that could be a great thing for you.

THIS is networking and collaboration, and it will be your most effective client finding tool, not to mention more rewarding in general. Congratulations Ned, you've done an outstanding job, there. As @Vtec44 said, you will do well in life!

Onwards and upwards!