Why to be a Buzzkill!!! My opinion of the Df has changed...

[TheLost]

I will admit that i REALLY like(d) the Df..

I liked the old school knobs..
I drank the cool-aid and liked the idea of 'pure photography'..
I didn't mind the spec's as it would be a day-to-day camera (50mm 99% of the time)..
I could stomach the price..

And then i read Thom Hogans article (What Nikon Got Wrong | byThom | Thom Hogan)

The Df and the D800 are backwards!!!!

The Df should have the guts of the D800 (36mp) and be retro-cool-hipster-photo-centric-chic.
The D800 should have the guts of the D4 and be a 16mp speed powerhouse.

If Nikon would have done that we would have our D3x for hipsters (Df) and our D700/D300 small body pro (d800) for the sporty-birders.

... and nobody would have anything to ***** about on camera forums :mrgreen:

 

[robbins.photo]

I will admit that i REALLY like(d) the Df..

I liked the old school knobs..
I drank the cool-aid and liked the idea of 'pure photography'..
I didn't mind the spec's as it would be a day-to-day camera (50mm 99% of the time)..
I could stomach the price..

And then i read Thom Hogans article (What Nikon Got Wrong | byThom | Thom Hogan)

The Df and the D800 are backwards!!!!

The Df should have the guts of the D800 (36mp) and be retro-cool-hipster-photo-centric-chic.
The D800 should have the guts of the D4 and be a 16mp speed powerhouse.

If Nikon would have done that we would have our D3x for hipsters (Df) and our D700/D300 small body pro (d800) for the sporty-birders.

... and nobody would have anything to ***** about on camera forums :mrgreen:

Did you read the article "What Thom Hogan got wrong, by the guys who actually make their living selling cameras?"

First bad assumption - that the people this is marketed towards will be choosing between it and the D800. Nope. The people this is marketed towards by and large have no idea what a D800 is nor would they probably care, in fact if you asked them about a D800 my bet is they would ask you in return, "Is that the new model of BMW?". This is pretty much where he goes off the rails and sadly never seems to realize the fundamental flaw in his thinking. Like most he assumes Nikon created this camera for us, with us in mind - the camera geeks. Those of us who already have some form of DSLR and are looking to upgrade, who know our cameras and have a specific wish list, etc.. etc.

That is not who this camera was designed for, not by a long shot. This is Nikon's "Look at our fancy new DSLR with the cool retro look on the shelves just in time for christmas" camera. Since it's so pricey, it must be a great camera. That's the market Nikon is after here, and from a marketing standpoint it makes perfect sense.

You don't build a camera for camera geeks to be released during the christmas shopping season - camera geeks will buy year round, most of them as soon as an upgrade is available. So why would you market a christmas camera at them? Total waste of time and money.

Nope. Obviously Thom knows his cameras - but what I don't think he gets is that building the camera isn't really the primary thing here, it's the marketing. Now personally I won't be buying a DF - certainly not at that price point. I wouldn't recommend others do for the most part, I think you can get more bang for your buck (like Thom) with a different body. But the folks that Nikon is aiming for here aren't camera geeks, they don't hang out in forums, and they probably won't read a word of what Thom has to say on the subject.

Personally I'm ok with the Df - if Nikon makes a mint off this thing and it sells like gangbusters, great. Just means that come Jan when they do start looking at something marketed toward us camera geeks, maybe some additional R&D will be involved.

 

[Derrel]

I admit it, I still read Thom Hogan's articles pretty regularly, and I also read his first impressions of the Nikon Df piece yesterday. Although I do respect his experience very much, and admire the work he does, I think his judgement has begun to slip and become questionable over the last year or so. I myself used to be in camera and video camera sales for a small chain that had 13 camera stores. I've literally SOLD cameras, face to face, across a sales counter, and I was damned good at it too. I can tell you one thing...if I were still in the biz, the Df would be EASY to sell to qualified customers. Of multiple age demographics, and from multiple levels of experience.

I have not read the counter-article to Hogan's piece, but yesterday, as I read Hogan's list of complaints and fantasy suggestions, I thought to myself...."Wow..he really doesn't 'get it' any longer," and "He loves to second-guess the world's second-biggest camera maker, constantly." Since he has become more involved in the mirrorless camera issue, and has begun his new sansmirror website, his ideas about how a camera ought to be designed,and how it ought to work, seems to have become muddled and confused, mixing and matching d-slr with compact mirrorless buyers and users, and making sweeping, blanket assumptions that really don't seem to apply to all shooters, as well as trying to make weak arguments.

Case in point: he began the article by setting up a THREE-option scenario for how a camera pre-introduction can be perceived by the public. Unfortunately, life is not so simple as to have only "three" types of scenarios.

I like the retro look of the Df, and think it has some unique features. I have not made my mind up about the camera as it might or might not apply to me, since I have not even HELD ONE, but I have to say, I think Hogan's piece is riddled with facile statements. I would have to disagree with a number of his statements in many of his recent "Here's what Nikon screwed up on!' rants, which is what many of his columns have devolved into over the past year. He keeps criticizing almost everything the company does, based on his fantasy of how "he" would run the company and design the products. He basically rips on the camera without having held one. Or shot one. Now I must head off and read ,"What Thom Hogan got wrong, by the guys who actually make their living selling cameras". But as a former top camera salesman, I can tell you one thing...this thing will have MASSIVE appeal to many potential buyers.

 

[robbins.photo]

I admit it, I still read Thom Hogan's articles pretty regularly, and I also read his first impressions of the Nikon Df piece yesterday. Although I do respect his experience very much, and admire the work he does, I think his judgement has begun to slip and become questionable over the last year or so. I myself used to be in camera and video camera sales for a small chain that had 13 camera stores. I've literally SOLD cameras, face to face, across a sales counter, and I was damned good at it too. I can tell you one thing...if I were still in the biz, the Df would be EASY to sell to qualified customers. Of multiple age demographics, and from multiple levels of experience.

I have not read the counter-article to Hogan's piece, but yesterday, as I read Hogan's list of complaints and fantasy suggestions, I thought to myself...."Wow..he really doesn't 'get it' any longer," and "He loves to second-guess the world's second-biggest camera maker, constantly." Since he has become more involved in the mirrorless camera issue, and has begun his new sansmirror website, his ideas about how a camera ought to be designed,and how it ought to work, seems to have become muddled and confused, mixing and matching d-slr with compact mirrorless buyers and users, and making sweeping, blanket assumptions that really don't seem to apply to all shooters, as well as trying to make weak arguments.

Case in point: he began the article by setting up a THREE-option scenario for how a camera pre-introduction can be perceived by the public. Unfortunately, life is not so simple as to have only "three" types of scenarios.

I like the retro look of the Df, and think it has some unique features. I have not made my mind up about the camera as it might or might not apply to me, since I have not even HELD ONE, but I have to say, I think Hogan's piece is riddled with facile statements. I would have to disagree with a number of his statements in many of his recent "Here's what Nikon screwed up on!' rants, which is what many of his columns have devolved into over the past year. He keeps criticizing almost everything the company does, based on his fantasy of how "he" would run the company and design the products. He basically rips on the camera without having held one. Or shot one. Now I must head off and read ,"What Thom Hogan got wrong, by the guys who actually make their living selling cameras". But as a former top camera salesman, I can tell you one thing...this thing will have MASSIVE appeal to many potential buyers.

Well nothing against Thom mind you, I'm sure he knows his stuff when it comes to cameras. Problem is too many people are looking at the specs of the Df and judge it soley based on that without ever bothering to consider that the people Nikon is marketing this too don't buy cameras based on specs. In fact most of the people I see buying this camera most likely either don't own a DSLR or if they do it probably has been sitting in the closet for years.

I mean I get it why the camera geeks are all up in arms because Nikon didn't add this feature or that feature or yada yada - but I seriously don't thing the Df was ever meant to fill that role. It's not designed to continue/replace a current line, etc - the Df is designed with one simple and clear goal in mind, make Nikon wheelbarrow's full of money for Christmas. And I think that's a goal it will most likely fulfill quite nicely.

Oh, if you like the "What Thom Hogan got wrong" piece I think there is another one out now, "Thom Hogan doesn't run Nikon, my son does" - she sounds like a nice enough lady but she spends most of the article trying to sell off some unused F3's. Kind of creepy really.

 

[amolitor]

I can't quite figure out why everyone keeps saying that the camera is expensive.

Forget the retro styling, and consider what you're getting for $2750 or whatever, and I think you'll see that the "retro premium" is quite close to $0. It's either a ruggedized, weatherized D610, or a chopped down D4, depending on how you feel about the sensor. And the price is, lo, right between the D610 and the D4. Go figger.

 

[runnah]

I can't quite figure out why everyone keeps saying that the camera is expensive.

Forget the retro styling, and consider what you're getting for $2750 or whatever, and I think you'll see that the "retro premium" is quite close to $0. It's either a ruggedized, weatherized D610, or a chopped down D4, depending on how you feel about the sensor. And the price is, lo, right between the D610 and the D4. Go figger.

The heartburn is the "why" of the whole thing. Its not cheap enough to be a quick cash grab and it's too gimmicky and cumbersome for a working professional. Its one of those cases where you wish they'd drop the marketing-speak and really say what the thought process is. I am sure folks at Nikon know exactly what they are doing and have pie charts and venn diagrams to back it up, but it leaves us and Thom guessing.

 

[Derrel]

I can't quite figure out why everyone keeps saying that the camera is expensive.

Forget the retro styling, and consider what you're getting for $2750 or whatever, and I think you'll see that the "retro premium" is quite close to $0. It's either a ruggedized, weatherized D610, or a chopped down D4, depending on how you feel about the sensor. And the price is, lo, right between the D610 and the D4. Go figger.

The heartburn is the "why" of the whole thing. Its not cheap enough to be a quick cash grab and it's too gimmicky and cumbersome for a working professional. Its one of those cases where you wish they'd drop the marketing-speak and really say what the thought process is. I am sure folks at Nikon know exactly what they are doing and have pie charts and venn diagrams to back it up, but it leaves us and Thom guessing.

I don't see the Df as being all that gimmicky, or cumbersome for a working professional...it has all the same, basic controls all the pro-level Nikon d-slr bodies have ever had... M A S P exposure modes, same AF switch as the newest models, same flash shoe as the new cameras, modern TTL 3-D RGB Color Matrix light metering, 39 AF points, 9-lens memory to embed EXIF info when using non-CPU lenses, FULL ability to use any Nikon lens made since 1959...(except for the invasive fisheyes), Quiet Shutter firing mode, dedicated mirror lock-up control, Single, Continuous, Continuous High-speed advance, Self-timer modes, 920,000 pixel rear LCD screen...center-weighted, matrix, and spot light metering, dedicated X-synch speed, T-speed for extended time exposures without the need for ANY kind of cable or remote release button, PC socket to connect radio triggers...

It has the same sensor as the flagship low-light camera, the D4...

The 4.2 MP D2h premiered at $3,499...the D3 premiered at $4999, the D3x at $7999, the D4 at north of $6,500...this camera probably will exceed the image quality of the D4 one or two individual metrics, at a price compared to a single D4 body alone, that would allow a buyer to purchase TWO Df bodies, and have money left over for a very nice lens from Nikon...

 

[pixmedic]

im with Derrel on this one.
i cant see any reason why this would not be a perfectly workable "pro" camera.
If the ISO handling is as good as the D4, this camera will be amazing for its price.
a few downsides (if you can even really call them that)
d800's processor, 39 AF points, only 5.5 FPS....
but realistically, thats still pretty good spec wise.
you are almost getting a D4, but for less than half the price.
and when they start hitting the USED market? or start getting rebates? or store sales?
this could be a very competitive camera even in the pro market.
I think so anyway....
then again, im no Thom Hogan.

 

[runnah]

I don't think the guts are an issue I think is more the function and layout. It makes fast shooting adjustments harder because it's not all on the same side and requires two hands. Makes using a handheld flash very difficult.

 

[TheLost]

I don't think the guts are an issue I think is more the function and layout. It makes fast shooting adjustments harder because it's not all on the same side and requires two hands. Makes using a handheld flash very difficult.

This is my point.. (well.. i stole it from Mr. Hogan)..

If the Df used the sensor from the D800 but the AF system and shutter from the D610 it would make more sense. Then Nikon is free to come out with a D800s that has the innards of the D4 in a small body.

You'd then have a $3000 D800 (D3x)... $3000 Df (reto cut-down D800).. $3000 D800s (mini D4 16mp action monster). Each camera has a specific target market and i believe they all would sell like hotcakes.

 

[Derrel]

Fast shooting adjustments? Two hands? Yes, these are the same kinds of issues young andy Westlake brought up in the dPreview hands-on preview piece today. A lot of the complaints are coming from people who have NEVER actually owned and used a camera that's layed out this way, and I interpret most of these sour grapes type comments due to two things: 1) It's priced out of the reach of most people, since as we know, the $400 Nikon D3100 from three years ago is the biggest selling Nikon in terms of volume... and 2) It's a well-proven way of controlling a camera that HAS BEEN and WAS used successfully by millions of people, for decades in a row and 3) It confuses newcomers who have no idea of how to "actually use" a camera this sophisticated.

For example...this is a PRO Nikon. Why do I say that? Full weather sealing, magnesium chassis, a very large, very bright viewfinder with the ROUND eyepiece (a sure tip it's a pro body), and it also has the separate, fully-customizable DUAL AF-Lock/AE-Lock and separate AF-ON buttons, like a D1x, D2x or D3x has. Given the weight of this body with the small battery, it's a good bet that the pentaprism is flagship-level bright, clear, and sharp; Andy Westlake raved about the view through the finder eyepiece.

As to the ISO dial being top left: YES!!!!!!!!!!! I adjust my ISO at most once or twice an hour on most days....on some assignments, many in fact, I will set the ISO level and leave it there for 500 to 800 frames, so the "can't adjust my ISO when looking thru the viewfinder" is basically a lame 'negative' we hear mostly from people who dick around with the ISO all the time. Same with the M A S P or exposure mode control...I leave mine in A much of the time...when shooting flash I ALWAYS put the camera in M mode. ALways,always,always; I think in 13 years with a d-slr, I have shot maybe 25 flash pictures in P mode, back with my D1 in 2002. The exposure comp dial...it's on top, and has a locking button...that's because the "old way" of shooting using exposure comp is using it as an "offset" to refine the exposure the meter gives, to protect one's highlights, or to compensate for a specific background that has unusual brightness or darkness. With a modern, color-aware Nikon that meters the reflectance and color and distance to the subject, the in-camera meter can make adjustments pretty easily, so exposure compensation is not needed all that much these days, but it CAN be used to compensate for backlighting, or very DARK backgrounds, or when metering in spotlighted situations,etc.. Exposure comp is a tool, not a crutch. If you "need" to use it every frame, you need to learn how to shoot better, or meter better. In SPot or heavily C/W metering modes, you almost never,ever use Exp. Comp. Amazing--a made-up problem goes away if you know how to meter!

But the whole, "I can't yo-yo my ISO up and down and all over the place while looking through the finder," complaint is a joke. News FLASH--LEARN TO SHOOT, and you will realize that adjusting the ISO every 5 minutes marks you as a newbie. If one insists on holding the camera up to his eye so that he can see the ISO values in the camera finder, just to be able to adjust the ISO, it marks him not only as a newbie, but as a petulant newbie unable to adapt to even the most minor deviation from the way he's learned to operate a camera. The ISO thru the finder issue...OMG...if one needs constant ISO adjustment, the Df has AUTO ISO setting capability, and the Max ISO it will run up to will be displayed, on top of the camera, at ALL TIMES, constantly,without the need to push a button and go to a menu to review the AUTO-ISO settings. Full-time, full disclosure information, right where it needs to be to be seen, and adjusted without menu-diving.

Again, this body has an AE-Lock AF-LOCK button AND a separate AF-ON button on the back. There will probably be at least SIX options for how to configure these two buttons, either interlocking the AE lock with the focus lock, or separating them, or even switching BOTH buttons to be AF-ON function, which is the last option. Again, these are PRO-level, flagship Nikon functions that have been around for a decade, and the kind of user that will want this camera understands one thing: this camera can be customized far,far more than a D3200 or D5100 or most other consumer bodies.

Anyway, I'm intimately familiar with the pro-level Nikon bodies and how they can be set up to meter and focus. For every complaint I read about the Df, I can think of a counter-argument. It's a shame that the MAJORITY of people writing on-line about this new body are producing shoddy,shoddy "journalism", filled with editorializing and idiotic comments, instead of reporting accurately and dispassionately about the facts. Most of the younger web and YouTube commentators are so green and wet behind the ears that they're literally blind to the reasoning that went into engineering this camera, and its feature set. It's pretty amusing. But then...these are people with 4 or 5 years of experience, and they have no concept of "how" to actually shoot, other than with digital control equipment. They just do not have the actual experience to understand that "analog" controls are not, by default, a limitation, or a handicap, and in some cases are actually easier to use, and show more information, at a glance. In the on-line materials I have seen, almost every single writer's complaints are in the areas the camera is "different than what he himself understands, or different from what he is personally used to". Or...as mentioned, that it's too expensive. Or it's not like his D3100 or his D90. No chit. It's a pro-oriented Nikon.

 

[robbins.photo]

Fast shooting adjustments? Two hands? Yes, these are the same kinds of issues young andy Westlake brought up in the dPreview hands-on preview piece today. A lot of the complaints are coming from people who have NEVER actually owned and used a camera that's layed out this way, and I interpret most of these sour grapes type comments due to two things: 1) It's priced out of the reach of most people, since as we know, the $400 Nikon D3100 from three years ago is the biggest selling Nikon in terms of volume... and 2) It's a well-proven way of controlling a camera that HAS BEEN and WAS used successfully by millions of people, for decades in a row and 3) It confuses newcomers who have no idea of how to "actually use" a camera this sophisticated.

So wait, you should actually use the camera before you review it? Sounds a bit on the crazy side really. I mean as a photographer you should be able to get everything you need from just looking at the pictures, right?

For example...this is a PRO Nikon. Why do I say that? Full weather sealing, magnesium chassis, a very large, very bright viewfinder with the ROUND eyepiece (a sure tip it's a pro body), and it also has the separate, fully-customizable DUAL AF-Lock/AE-Lock and separate AF-ON buttons, like a D1x, D2x or D3x has. Given the weight of this body with the small battery, it's a good bet that the pentaprism is flagship-level bright, clear, and sharp; Andy Westlake raved about the view through the finder eyepiece.

I thought the dial arrangement looked fantastic myself.

But the whole, "I can't yo-yo my ISO up and down and all over the place while looking through the finder," complaint is a joke. News FLASH--LEARN TO SHOOT, and you will realize that adjusting the ISO every 5 minutes marks you as a newbie.

Ok, so where do I fall on that scale if I'm adjusting it every 2.5 minutes? Lol

If one insists on holding the camera up to his eye so that he can see the ISO values in the camera finder, just to be able to adjust the ISO, it marks him not only as a newbie, but as a petulant newbie unable to adapt to even the most minor deviation from the way he's learned to operate a camera. The ISO thru the finder issue...OMG...if one needs constant ISO adjustment, the Df has AUTO ISO setting capability, and the Max ISO it will run up to will be displayed, on top of the camera, at ALL TIMES, constantly,without the need to push a button and go to a menu to review the AUTO-ISO settings. Full-time, full disclosure information, right where it needs to be to be seen, and adjusted without menu-diving.

Well my big complaint is there is no way to order a pizza through the viewfinder. I mean seriously, who's idea was that?

Again, this body has an AE-Lock AF-LOCK button AND a separate AF-ON button on the back. There will probably be at least SIX options for how to configure these two buttons, either interlocking the AE lock with the focus lock, or separating them, or even switching BOTH buttons to be AF-ON function, which is the last option. Again, these are PRO-level, flagship Nikon functions that have been around for a decade, and the kind of user that will want this camera understands one thing: this camera can be customized far,far more than a D3200 or D5100 or most other consumer bodies.

And if it sells well enough, which it most likely will, they will probably continue to make additional versions to expand the market.

Anyway, I'm intimately familiar with the pro-level Nikon bodies and how they can be set up to meter and focus. For every complaint I read about the Df, I can think of a counter-argument. It's a shame that the MAJORITY of people writing on-line about this new body are producing shoddy,shoddy "journalism", filled with editorializing and idiotic comments, instead of reporting accurately and dispassionately about the facts. Most of the younger web and YouTube commentators are so green and wet behind the ears that they're literally blind to the reasoning that went into engineering this camera, and its feature set. It's pretty amusing. But then...these are people with 4 or 5 years of experience, and they have no concept of "how" to actually shoot, other than with digital control equipment. They just do not have the actual experience to understand that "analog" controls are not, by default, a limitation, or a handicap, and in some cases are actually easier to use, and show more information, at a glance. In the on-line materials I have seen, almost every single writer's complaints are in the areas the camera is "different than what he himself understands, or different from what he is personally used to". Or...as mentioned, that it's too expensive. Or it's not like his D3100 or his D90. No chit. It's a pro-oriented Nikon.

Well the people writing this stuff, lets face it, they are camera geeks. Like me. Like you. They have a wishlist of items they wanted to see in the next Nikon release, and they are a little cheesed off that Nikon didn't build the camera specifically for them. They just aren't getting the concept that the Df is not marketed towards them. Or if they are getting that concept it's just hacking them off even more I guess... lol.

But no worries really. I have a feeling the sales numbers on the Df will be pretty good, and I also have a feeling that if I wait long enough I can probably pick one up pretty cheap used a year or two from now, which works wonderfully for me. I'd love to have something like this in my bag, I can think of a lot of uses for it. Probably wouldn't become my primary, but having something lightweight that I could pull out and do some really outstanding portraits with while leaving my other camera setup with the telephoto would be great. Looks like it would be fun to shoot with, so eventually if I can get one in a price range that makes sense for me I'll most likely buy one.

In the meantime I think Nikon has a winner on it's hands here - and I'm not worried about the terrible outcry and criticism the camera faces from certain quarters. Honestly the vast majority of the people that this camera is initially marketed to will never see any of that anyway.

 

[robbins.photo]

I don't think the guts are an issue I think is more the function and layout. It makes fast shooting adjustments harder because it's not all on the same side and requires two hands. Makes using a handheld flash very difficult.

This is my point.. (well.. i stole it from Mr. Hogan)..

If the Df used the sensor from the D800 but the AF system and shutter from the D610 it would make more sense. Then Nikon is free to come out with a D800s that has the innards of the D4 in a small body.

You'd then have a $3000 D800 (D3x)... $3000 Df (reto cut-down D800).. $3000 D800s (mini D4 16mp action monster). Each camera has a specific target market and i believe they all would sell like hotcakes.

Well if Nikon were marketing this thing to folks that own multiple DSLR's already then yes, that would make perfect sense. But they really aren't. So for them it made more marketing sense to make the camera usable and capable but not overwhelming for the non-camera pro. They were also wanting to keep the cost per unit down because, well they aren't shooting for massive sales numbers here at that price point. They are looking at a smaller number of sales but a larger profit per camera.

 

[Mach0]

I wouldn't mind renting one... Let's see when they are available.

 

[amolitor]

Well if Nikon were marketing this thing to folks that own multiple DSLR's already then yes, that would make perfect sense. But they really aren't.

Well, they're certainly marketing it to Serious Photographers. Maybe they were marketing to the rare Serious Photographer who doesn't already own a camera? The film people? Who?

I'm pretty sure they were marketing it to EXACTLY people who have at least one DSLR already, or at least some expensive piece of photo kit, possibly multiple, and who want.. something else. Gear enthusiasts who fancy themselves Serious Photographers. Film People who haven't yet made the switch to digital because they love their film gear. D4 owners who want a cheaper second body. Older guys getting sick of dragging medium/large format gear around.