am i wrong?

[Designer]

We actually had an entire semester class on using a slide rule. Now they're antiques.

 

[pixmedic]

I wonder how many know how to use Cosines and Tangents without an ipad

arent those fruit?
i love tangents...so much easier to peel than regular oranges.

 

[gsgary]

I might be crap at English but I'm good at maths

 

[gsgary]

We actually had an entire semester class on using a slide rule. Now they're antiques.

I know architects that still use them

 

[tirediron]

I wonder how many know how to use Cosines and Tangents without an ipad

Don't you mean, "know what a COS or TAN is"?

 

[Buckster]

You said look up the average weight of school children
CDC - Obesity - Facts - Adolescent and School Health

Actually, Gary, what I said was:

"Look up the current average weights of teens, and you'll be hard pressed to show that they're "all" or even "mostly" fat, lazy and ate up with diabetes."

How convenient of you to leave that last part off.

BMI, like most "normal" body calculations, is not without flaws due to the very nature of the fact that people have different body types. This is recognized by healthcare professionals as a factor which can vary whether any individual should be classified as over or under "normal", regardless of their BMI. From the history of BMI:

In 1998, the U.S. National Institutes of Health and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention brought U.S. definitions in line with World Health Organizationguidelines, lowering the normal/overweight cut-off from BMI 27.8 to BMI 25. This had the effect of redefining approximately 29 million Americans, previously healthy to overweight. This can partially explain the increase in the overweight diagnosis in the past 20 years, and the increase in sales of the weight loss products during the same time. WHO also recommends lowering the normal/overweight threshold for South East Asian body types to around BMI 23, and expects further revisions to emerge from clinical studies of different body types.

This little 5 year old girl, my granddaughter, was deemed by her school as overweight right around the time I shot the photo below, based solely on her BMI:

She doesn't spend much time watching TV or playing on computers. She has a tablet but rarely uses it other than when she's in the car where she can't move around. The rest of the time, she's jumping, running, doing flips and so forth (currently says she wants to be a gymnast and a ballerina). She doesn't care for sweets at all, and her favorite snacks are pickles, cucumbers, green peppers, lettuce and ice. She shuns soda almost entirely and asks for water most of the time if she wants something to drink. None of this behavior is coerced or even suggested by anyone. It's just who she is and her personal tastes.

She's the spitting image and size of her mother at that age, who would definitely been deemed overweight by the same BMI standards, had that been lowered in the US earlier enough to have affected her. That daughter of mine is now 28 years old and even after having 2 children is tall, thin and very healthy:

Unlike my granddaughter, she was not a terribly active child. She actually DID spend a lot of time sitting at computers from the time she was a toddler. She also spent a LOT of time just sitting or lying down and reading, which appeared to be her primary interest. She spent a little time on a youth soccer team, but had no real interest in it, and it didn't last long. Same with a basketball team she was on in school. She didn't pursue any sports at all outside of school either. I tried to get her interested in riding a bicycle like most kids, and she had no interest at all in even owning one after she was about 7 years old. She just last year finally got one so she could go bike riding with me and my granddaughter. None of her behavior was coerced or even suggested by anyone. That's just who she was.

That 28 year lifespan (will be 29 in July) coincides with the 30 years cited by the CDC in the link you provided. But when I look at my daughter and her friends, I don't see a bunch of fat, lazy people on their way to rampant diabetes. I see normal, healthy human beings who grew up in the modern age of computers who have a range of bodies that are neither obese nor anorexic.

All that said, I don't personally put a lot of weight (yes I went there) into the whole BMI thing. It was developed at a time (1830-1850) when people were measuring everything and trying to establish something they could say is "normal" as "ideal". That doesn't mean that it necessarily is.

You carried on with your words as if to imply that nearly all of today's youth are fat, lazy and headed for diabetes BECAUSE of the modern technology you so hate, in particular computers and now tablets.

You have however, failed to show actual links and causation between the two, and I question the veracity of the BMI, especially since there was a huge increase when the US decided to adopt it as a standard, throwing millions of people suddenly into the "overweight" column, which accounts for a large percentage of the increase in obesity cited as though it's rampant. Those people didn't change size though - they stayed virtually the same, and the line suddenly shifted to stick them on the other side of it.

In any case, you have yet to show that sitting and reading a textbook is somehow healthier or objectively "better" than sitting and reading a tablet with the same information. You have yet to show an objective correlation between tablets and diabetes, tablets and obesity, tablets and laziness.

That makes it difficult for me to take your claims and assertions very seriously.

 

[Overread]

Any doctor worth their licence and degree knows that BMI is only a crude single tool in the calculation of weight and body mass and if a person is or isn't overweight. Anyone who takes it as 100% gospel is generally going to end up in some form of trouble.

It's one tool of many - and to get a good result a doctor will use many tools and features as well as the age ,activity etc.. of the subject in question. Many children often put on some weight; its there and very healthy as it provides material for growth and development.

It's when things get to the extreme ends or where weight gain or loss is much more striking and significant that we need to consider that there could be a problem.


Heck most bodybuilders and heavy muscle builders are oft way off on their BMI scores and listed as critically obese according to the BMI.



Also reading a book is no more nor less healthy than using a computer however;
Prolonged typing at high speeds can cause RSI same for using a mouse. (they are poor erganomic designs in general)

Prolonged screen exposure can cause weakness in eyes - the same is also true of using microscopes and reading books lots.


In general the dangers are the same - its just that books are seen as "better" because they don't have facebook in them

 

[Buckster]

I'm not convinced of this. Yes, there will be an initial cost-saving if the school agrees to use Apple products since they will get them at little to no cost (at least for a while), however talking to people I know in the post-secondary education world (yes, I understand that's not what the OP referred to), there hasn't been a great deal of change in the price of e-textbooks vs. paper ones. They're still specialized publications made in limited numbers, and will always cost a lot, and will always have a premium price because students "need" them.

But still, e-books cost less than paper books, especially when you factor in the costs of manufacturing, warehousing, transport to schools, and disposal at the end of their short lifespans.

As far as the environmental aspect, I strongly dispute that. Having lived on the west coast for 40 years, I've seen many logging operations, clear-cuts mills, pulp plants, etc, and NONE of them can come even remotely close to the degree of environmental hazard posed by third-world electronics recycling, which is done almost exclusively in Asia, and where 90+% of North American consumer electronics go. I'll take a clear cut over a pile of smoulder plastics where iPads have been melted down for precious metal extraction any time.

Have some reality: Environmental impact of paper - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Comparing it to the current electronic disposal methods in Asia is invalid for the simple fact that a wrong over there doesn't turn a wrong over here into a right. The current disposal methods in Asia need to stop, and as soon as you rule Asia, you can put that on your agenda. As long as it continues though, it doesn't make paper mill pollution "right" or valid in any way.

The electronics are going to keep getting produced, used and discarded. That's reality. The world is not going to suddenly abandon electronic devices and shift back to paper and ink just because Asia is disposing of them in horribly pollutive ways, so you're just going to have to deal with it. News flash: We're not going back to the horse and buggy in order to curtail all the pollution associated with modern powered vehicles either, so take a deep breath, pull up your big boy pants, and figure out how to live with those kinds of facts.

Leave us also not forget the biggest issue: Schools are doing less and less teaching of the basics. It's all well and good to say, "Technology is the future, teach it!", but you can't neglect the basics. Knowing your multiplcation tables, how to perform basic long division with a pencil stub on a napkin... these are real-world skills, and unlike your iPad, the battery in my pencil has never run down to the point where I can't use it!

If you have a problem with what the schools teach, then get involved with others in the community and correct it. The decisions regarding what to teach and why are made by local school boards. The school board members are elected by and influenced by the citizens of their communities. That means it's up to those citizens what's being taught and why. They WILL necessarily have to factor in cost, and where the money will come from. They WILL necessarily have to factor in a vision of the future of available jobs, and teach students what they need in order to compete in that future world.

It's all well and good to cry that we don't teach kids how to use a slide rule. But it's hypocritical when NOBODY NEEDS to use one anymore and EVERYONE, including you, uses a calculator. And like it or not, it's the same with every other technology that's replaced the older ways of doing things.

My daughter knows how to do math without a calculator on a napkin, just like I do. She learned it in school, just like I did. My grandaughter is already learning the same thing now in kindergarten and she's all excited about it. Her latest "game" to play with us is what she calls "equals". We take turns asking each other what a number plus another number equals, and then she works it out WITHOUT A CALCULATOR.

As far as I can tell, this idea that nobody in the younger generation knows how to do simple maths without a calculator is just more rhetoric from you folks trying to make an argument that modern technology is so much worse than the tech us older folks learned to use. Do they get it drilled in as much as we did? No, but then again, electronic calculators didn't exist when I was learning it, so they HAD to drill it into me and my peers.

Do you REALLY think it matters so much HOW we get to a math answer, as long as we get to it? Do you really think that the whole point of doing math is to do math, or is the point of doing it to get to an answer that is useful for some purpose? If you think it's the former, then why do you use a calculator, a spreadsheet or a database? Why aren't YOU using a slide rule, if it's so all-fired important these days? Why aren't YOU doing all your calculations with pencil and paper if that's the ONLY valid way to get to an answer?

Just stop, already. If you want to go back to banging rocks together, be my guest, but stop wagging your finger at those of us who are eager to move up to the next step in human knowledge and ability.

 

[gsgary]

I'm not convinced of this. Yes, there will be an initial cost-saving if the school agrees to use Apple products since they will get them at little to no cost (at least for a while), however talking to people I know in the post-secondary education world (yes, I understand that's not what the OP referred to), there hasn't been a great deal of change in the price of e-textbooks vs. paper ones. They're still specialized publications made in limited numbers, and will always cost a lot, and will always have a premium price because students "need" them.

But still, e-books cost less than paper books, especially when you factor in the costs of manufacturing, warehousing, transport to schools, and disposal at the end of their short lifespans.

As far as the environmental aspect, I strongly dispute that. Having lived on the west coast for 40 years, I've seen many logging operations, clear-cuts mills, pulp plants, etc, and NONE of them can come even remotely close to the degree of environmental hazard posed by third-world electronics recycling, which is done almost exclusively in Asia, and where 90+% of North American consumer electronics go. I'll take a clear cut over a pile of smoulder plastics where iPads have been melted down for precious metal extraction any time.

Have some reality: Environmental impact of paper - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Comparing it to the current electronic disposal methods in Asia is invalid for the simple fact that a wrong over there doesn't turn a wrong over here into a right. The current disposal methods in Asia need to stop, and as soon as you rule Asia, you can put that on your agenda. As long as it continues though, it doesn't make paper mill pollution "right" or valid in any way.

The electronics are going to keep getting produced, used and discarded. That's reality. The world is not going to suddenly abandon electronic devices and shift back to paper and ink just because Asia is disposing of them in horribly pollutive ways, so you're just going to have to deal with it. News flash: We're not going back to the horse and buggy in order to curtail all the pollution associated with modern powered vehicles either, so take a deep breath, pull up your big boy pants, and figure out how to live with those kinds of facts.

Leave us also not forget the biggest issue: Schools are doing less and less teaching of the basics. It's all well and good to say, "Technology is the future, teach it!", but you can't neglect the basics. Knowing your multiplcation tables, how to perform basic long division with a pencil stub on a napkin... these are real-world skills, and unlike your iPad, the battery in my pencil has never run down to the point where I can't use it!

If you have a problem with what the schools teach, then get involved with others in the community and correct it. The decisions regarding what to teach and why are made by local school boards. The school board members are elected by and influenced by the citizens of their communities. That means it's up to those citizens what's being taught and why. They WILL necessarily have to factor in cost, and where the money will come from. They WILL necessarily have to factor in a vision of the future of available jobs, and teach students what they need in order to compete in that future world.

It's all well and good to cry that we don't teach kids how to use a slide rule. But it's hypocritical when NOBODY NEEDS to use one anymore and EVERYONE, including you, uses a calculator. And like it or not, it's the same with every other technology that's replaced the older ways of doing things.

My daughter knows how to do math without a calculator on a napkin, just like I do. She learned it in school, just like I did. My grandaughter is already learning the same thing now in kindergarten and she's all excited about it. Her latest "game" to play with us is what she calls "equals". We take turns asking each other what a number plus another number equals, and then she works it out WITHOUT A CALCULATOR.

As far as I can tell, this idea that nobody in the younger generation knows how to do simple maths without a calculator is just more rhetoric from you folks trying to make an argument that modern technology is so much worse than the tech us older folks learned to use. Do they get it drilled in as much as we did? No, but then again, electronic calculators didn't exist when I was learning it, so they HAD to drill it into me and my peers.

Do you REALLY think it matters so much HOW we get to a math answer, as long as we get to it? Do you really think that the whole point of doing math is to do math, or is the point of doing it to get to an answer that is useful for some purpose? If you think it's the former, then why do you use a calculator, a spreadsheet or a database? Why aren't YOU using a slide rule, if it's so all-fired important these days? Why aren't YOU doing all your calculations with pencil and paper if that's the ONLY valid way to get to an answer?

Just stop, already. If you want to go back to banging rocks together, be my guest, but stop wagging your finger at those of us who are eager to move up to the next step in human knowledge and ability.

You won't change my mind I would much rather have a book than an ipad

 

[Buckster]

I'm not convinced of this. Yes, there will be an initial cost-saving if the school agrees to use Apple products since they will get them at little to no cost (at least for a while), however talking to people I know in the post-secondary education world (yes, I understand that's not what the OP referred to), there hasn't been a great deal of change in the price of e-textbooks vs. paper ones. They're still specialized publications made in limited numbers, and will always cost a lot, and will always have a premium price because students "need" them.

But still, e-books cost less than paper books, especially when you factor in the costs of manufacturing, warehousing, transport to schools, and disposal at the end of their short lifespans.

As far as the environmental aspect, I strongly dispute that. Having lived on the west coast for 40 years, I've seen many logging operations, clear-cuts mills, pulp plants, etc, and NONE of them can come even remotely close to the degree of environmental hazard posed by third-world electronics recycling, which is done almost exclusively in Asia, and where 90+% of North American consumer electronics go. I'll take a clear cut over a pile of smoulder plastics where iPads have been melted down for precious metal extraction any time.

Have some reality: Environmental impact of paper - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Comparing it to the current electronic disposal methods in Asia is invalid for the simple fact that a wrong over there doesn't turn a wrong over here into a right. The current disposal methods in Asia need to stop, and as soon as you rule Asia, you can put that on your agenda. As long as it continues though, it doesn't make paper mill pollution "right" or valid in any way.

The electronics are going to keep getting produced, used and discarded. That's reality. The world is not going to suddenly abandon electronic devices and shift back to paper and ink just because Asia is disposing of them in horribly pollutive ways, so you're just going to have to deal with it. News flash: We're not going back to the horse and buggy in order to curtail all the pollution associated with modern powered vehicles either, so take a deep breath, pull up your big boy pants, and figure out how to live with those kinds of facts.

Leave us also not forget the biggest issue: Schools are doing less and less teaching of the basics. It's all well and good to say, "Technology is the future, teach it!", but you can't neglect the basics. Knowing your multiplcation tables, how to perform basic long division with a pencil stub on a napkin... these are real-world skills, and unlike your iPad, the battery in my pencil has never run down to the point where I can't use it!

If you have a problem with what the schools teach, then get involved with others in the community and correct it. The decisions regarding what to teach and why are made by local school boards. The school board members are elected by and influenced by the citizens of their communities. That means it's up to those citizens what's being taught and why. They WILL necessarily have to factor in cost, and where the money will come from. They WILL necessarily have to factor in a vision of the future of available jobs, and teach students what they need in order to compete in that future world.

It's all well and good to cry that we don't teach kids how to use a slide rule. But it's hypocritical when NOBODY NEEDS to use one anymore and EVERYONE, including you, uses a calculator. And like it or not, it's the same with every other technology that's replaced the older ways of doing things.

My daughter knows how to do math without a calculator on a napkin, just like I do. She learned it in school, just like I did. My grandaughter is already learning the same thing now in kindergarten and she's all excited about it. Her latest "game" to play with us is what she calls "equals". We take turns asking each other what a number plus another number equals, and then she works it out WITHOUT A CALCULATOR.

As far as I can tell, this idea that nobody in the younger generation knows how to do simple maths without a calculator is just more rhetoric from you folks trying to make an argument that modern technology is so much worse than the tech us older folks learned to use. Do they get it drilled in as much as we did? No, but then again, electronic calculators didn't exist when I was learning it, so they HAD to drill it into me and my peers.

Do you REALLY think it matters so much HOW we get to a math answer, as long as we get to it? Do you really think that the whole point of doing math is to do math, or is the point of doing it to get to an answer that is useful for some purpose? If you think it's the former, then why do you use a calculator, a spreadsheet or a database? Why aren't YOU using a slide rule, if it's so all-fired important these days? Why aren't YOU doing all your calculations with pencil and paper if that's the ONLY valid way to get to an answer?

Just stop, already. If you want to go back to banging rocks together, be my guest, but stop wagging your finger at those of us who are eager to move up to the next step in human knowledge and ability.

You won't change my mind I would much rather have a book than an ipad

I never expected to change your mind, and I still don't care.

 

[gsgary]

I'm not convinced of this. Yes, there will be an initial cost-saving if the school agrees to use Apple products since they will get them at little to no cost (at least for a while), however talking to people I know in the post-secondary education world (yes, I understand that's not what the OP referred to), there hasn't been a great deal of change in the price of e-textbooks vs. paper ones. They're still specialized publications made in limited numbers, and will always cost a lot, and will always have a premium price because students "need" them.

But still, e-books cost less than paper books, especially when you factor in the costs of manufacturing, warehousing, transport to schools, and disposal at the end of their short lifespans.

As far as the environmental aspect, I strongly dispute that. Having lived on the west coast for 40 years, I've seen many logging operations, clear-cuts mills, pulp plants, etc, and NONE of them can come even remotely close to the degree of environmental hazard posed by third-world electronics recycling, which is done almost exclusively in Asia, and where 90+% of North American consumer electronics go. I'll take a clear cut over a pile of smoulder plastics where iPads have been melted down for precious metal extraction any time.

Have some reality: Environmental impact of paper - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Comparing it to the current electronic disposal methods in Asia is invalid for the simple fact that a wrong over there doesn't turn a wrong over here into a right. The current disposal methods in Asia need to stop, and as soon as you rule Asia, you can put that on your agenda. As long as it continues though, it doesn't make paper mill pollution "right" or valid in any way.

The electronics are going to keep getting produced, used and discarded. That's reality. The world is not going to suddenly abandon electronic devices and shift back to paper and ink just because Asia is disposing of them in horribly pollutive ways, so you're just going to have to deal with it. News flash: We're not going back to the horse and buggy in order to curtail all the pollution associated with modern powered vehicles either, so take a deep breath, pull up your big boy pants, and figure out how to live with those kinds of facts.

Leave us also not forget the biggest issue: Schools are doing less and less teaching of the basics. It's all well and good to say, "Technology is the future, teach it!", but you can't neglect the basics. Knowing your multiplcation tables, how to perform basic long division with a pencil stub on a napkin... these are real-world skills, and unlike your iPad, the battery in my pencil has never run down to the point where I can't use it!

If you have a problem with what the schools teach, then get involved with others in the community and correct it. The decisions regarding what to teach and why are made by local school boards. The school board members are elected by and influenced by the citizens of their communities. That means it's up to those citizens what's being taught and why. They WILL necessarily have to factor in cost, and where the money will come from. They WILL necessarily have to factor in a vision of the future of available jobs, and teach students what they need in order to compete in that future world.

It's all well and good to cry that we don't teach kids how to use a slide rule. But it's hypocritical when NOBODY NEEDS to use one anymore and EVERYONE, including you, uses a calculator. And like it or not, it's the same with every other technology that's replaced the older ways of doing things.

My daughter knows how to do math without a calculator on a napkin, just like I do. She learned it in school, just like I did. My grandaughter is already learning the same thing now in kindergarten and she's all excited about it. Her latest "game" to play with us is what she calls "equals". We take turns asking each other what a number plus another number equals, and then she works it out WITHOUT A CALCULATOR.

As far as I can tell, this idea that nobody in the younger generation knows how to do simple maths without a calculator is just more rhetoric from you folks trying to make an argument that modern technology is so much worse than the tech us older folks learned to use. Do they get it drilled in as much as we did? No, but then again, electronic calculators didn't exist when I was learning it, so they HAD to drill it into me and my peers.

Do you REALLY think it matters so much HOW we get to a math answer, as long as we get to it? Do you really think that the whole point of doing math is to do math, or is the point of doing it to get to an answer that is useful for some purpose? If you think it's the former, then why do you use a calculator, a spreadsheet or a database? Why aren't YOU using a slide rule, if it's so all-fired important these days? Why aren't YOU doing all your calculations with pencil and paper if that's the ONLY valid way to get to an answer?

Just stop, already. If you want to go back to banging rocks together, be my guest, but stop wagging your finger at those of us who are eager to move up to the next step in human knowledge and ability.

You won't change my mind I would much rather have a book than an ipad

I never expected to change your mind, and I still don't care.

They did have calculators when you were at school because we had them but were not allowed t use them in exams

 

[Buckster]

0000

I'm not convinced of this. Yes, there will be an initial cost-saving if the school agrees to use Apple products since they will get them at little to no cost (at least for a while), however talking to people I know in the post-secondary education world (yes, I understand that's not what the OP referred to), there hasn't been a great deal of change in the price of e-textbooks vs. paper ones. They're still specialized publications made in limited numbers, and will always cost a lot, and will always have a premium price because students "need" them.

But still, e-books cost less than paper books, especially when you factor in the costs of manufacturing, warehousing, transport to schools, and disposal at the end of their short lifespans.

As far as the environmental aspect, I strongly dispute that. Having lived on the west coast for 40 years, I've seen many logging operations, clear-cuts mills, pulp plants, etc, and NONE of them can come even remotely close to the degree of environmental hazard posed by third-world electronics recycling, which is done almost exclusively in Asia, and where 90+% of North American consumer electronics go. I'll take a clear cut over a pile of smoulder plastics where iPads have been melted down for precious metal extraction any time.

Have some reality: Environmental impact of paper - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Comparing it to the current electronic disposal methods in Asia is invalid for the simple fact that a wrong over there doesn't turn a wrong over here into a right. The current disposal methods in Asia need to stop, and as soon as you rule Asia, you can put that on your agenda. As long as it continues though, it doesn't make paper mill pollution "right" or valid in any way.

The electronics are going to keep getting produced, used and discarded. That's reality. The world is not going to suddenly abandon electronic devices and shift back to paper and ink just because Asia is disposing of them in horribly pollutive ways, so you're just going to have to deal with it. News flash: We're not going back to the horse and buggy in order to curtail all the pollution associated with modern powered vehicles either, so take a deep breath, pull up your big boy pants, and figure out how to live with those kinds of facts.

Leave us also not forget the biggest issue: Schools are doing less and less teaching of the basics. It's all well and good to say, "Technology is the future, teach it!", but you can't neglect the basics. Knowing your multiplcation tables, how to perform basic long division with a pencil stub on a napkin... these are real-world skills, and unlike your iPad, the battery in my pencil has never run down to the point where I can't use it!

If you have a problem with what the schools teach, then get involved with others in the community and correct it. The decisions regarding what to teach and why are made by local school boards. The school board members are elected by and influenced by the citizens of their communities. That means it's up to those citizens what's being taught and why. They WILL necessarily have to factor in cost, and where the money will come from. They WILL necessarily have to factor in a vision of the future of available jobs, and teach students what they need in order to compete in that future world.

It's all well and good to cry that we don't teach kids how to use a slide rule. But it's hypocritical when NOBODY NEEDS to use one anymore and EVERYONE, including you, uses a calculator. And like it or not, it's the same with every other technology that's replaced the older ways of doing things.

My daughter knows how to do math without a calculator on a napkin, just like I do. She learned it in school, just like I did. My grandaughter is already learning the same thing now in kindergarten and she's all excited about it. Her latest "game" to play with us is what she calls "equals". We take turns asking each other what a number plus another number equals, and then she works it out WITHOUT A CALCULATOR.

As far as I can tell, this idea that nobody in the younger generation knows how to do simple maths without a calculator is just more rhetoric from you folks trying to make an argument that modern technology is so much worse than the tech us older folks learned to use. Do they get it drilled in as much as we did? No, but then again, electronic calculators didn't exist when I was learning it, so they HAD to drill it into me and my peers.

Do you REALLY think it matters so much HOW we get to a math answer, as long as we get to it? Do you really think that the whole point of doing math is to do math, or is the point of doing it to get to an answer that is useful for some purpose? If you think it's the former, then why do you use a calculator, a spreadsheet or a database? Why aren't YOU using a slide rule, if it's so all-fired important these days? Why aren't YOU doing all your calculations with pencil and paper if that's the ONLY valid way to get to an answer?

Just stop, already. If you want to go back to banging rocks together, be my guest, but stop wagging your finger at those of us who are eager to move up to the next step in human knowledge and ability.

You won't change my mind I would much rather have a book than an ipad

I never expected to change your mind, and I still don't care.

They did have calculators when you were at school because we had them but were not allowed t use them in exams

Yes, they were available when I was in the higher grades in school (graduated in '76), but nobody I knew had one at the time, probably because they were still too expensive for the poor part of town I was growing up in. I DID use one later in technical school, as required.

In any case, thanks for focusing on the most important part of this whole conversation to rebut. LOL

Feel free to address the lack of support for the rest of your claims at your convenience.

 

[tirediron]

But still, e-books cost less than paper books, especially when you factor in the costs of manufacturing, warehousing, transport to schools, and disposal at the end of their short lifespans.

Granted, however I was meaning the cost to the consumer/student; the difference between electronic and paper books is minimal, at least in the Canadian system. It may be different in your area. The other point is: There's no such thing as a second-hand e-book.

Comparing it to the current electronic disposal methods in Asia is invalid for the simple fact that a wrong over there doesn't turn a wrong over here into a right. The current disposal methods in Asia need to stop, and as soon as you rule Asia, you can put that on your agenda. As long as it continues though, it doesn't make paper mill pollution "right" or valid in any way.

I'm not suggesting for a second that pollution in any form is 'right', or that one is better than another. I am stating however, that the pollution arising from the North American/European production of text-books and paper-based educational material is many orders of magnitude less harmful than the south-east Asian production/ of electronics. The reality of the situation is, regardless of western views, most of this processing does, and will continue to occur in south-east Asia simply because of cheap labour and lax environmental standards. Like it or lump it... it is.

The electronics are going to keep getting produced, used and discarded. That's reality. The world is not going to suddenly abandon electronic devices and shift back to paper and ink just because Asia is disposing of them in horribly pollutive ways, so you're just going to have to deal with it. News flash: We're not going back to the horse and buggy in order to curtail all the pollution associated with modern powered vehicles either, so take a deep breath, pull up your big boy pants, and figure out how to live with those kinds of facts.

Really? YOu need to add remarks like those? I'm well aware that electronics are here to stay; I'm a user of technology myself, and I don't dispute the value of it. I do dispute wisdom of educational systems which fail to teach the basics such as "times tables" and other basic arithmatic, as well as cursive writing.

If you have a problem with what the schools teach, then get involved with others in the community and correct it. The decisions regarding what to teach and why are made by local school boards.

Again, that may be true where you live, for those of us living in North Igloo Junction, the curriculum is a provincial matter. Even the provinicial teacher's federation has problems making changes, but I don't dispute your point. I choose not to tilt at that particular windmill simply because I have no horse in the race, and thus other than the extorting of funds from me through taxiation, it matters not a whit.

It's all well and good to cry that we don't teach kids how to use a slide rule. But it's hypocritical when NOBODY NEEDS to use one anymore and EVERYONE, including you, uses a calculator. And like it or not, it's the same with every other technology that's replaced the older ways of doing things.

I don't recall mentioning slide-rules...

My daughter knows how to do math without a calculator on a napkin, just like I do. She learned it in school, just like I did. My grandaughter is already learning the same thing now in kindergarten and she's all excited about it. Her latest "game" to play with us is what she calls "equals". We take turns asking each other what a number plus another number equals, and then she works it out WITHOUT A CALCULATOR.

Then you sir, are a good parent, and have done her a service that far too many modern parents fail to! I say that in complete sincerity!

As far as I can tell, this idea that nobody in the younger generation knows how to do simple maths without a calculator is just more rhetoric from you folks trying to make an argument that modern technology is so much worse than the tech us older folks learned to use. Do they get it drilled in as much as we did? No, but then again, electronic calculators didn't exist when I was learning it, so they HAD to drill it into me and my peers.

No, it's not a lot of rhetoric, at least not in Canada. When I was teaching basic trades training to new sailors fresh out of basic training (about ten years ago), one of the phases of training involved a great deal of what I would call "moderate mental math" and the ability to calculate an equation which was, more or less, a two digit number divided by 60 and mulipled by either 1/4, 1/2 or 3/4. I typically needed to spend at least a half-day going over HOW to do these calculations, and this for people who were, on average, no more than three years out of high-school!

Do you REALLY think it matters so much HOW we get to a math answer, as long as we get to it? Do you really think that the whole point of doing math is to do math, or is the point of doing it to get to an answer that is useful for some purpose? If you think it's the former, then why do you use a calculator, a spreadsheet or a database? Why aren't YOU using a slide rule, if it's so all-fired important these days? Why aren't YOU doing all your calculations with pencil and paper if that's the ONLY valid way to get to an answer?
Just stop, already. If you want to go back to banging rocks together, be my guest, but stop wagging your finger at those of us who are eager to move up to the next step in human knowledge and ability.

Again, is it really necessary to add the belittling remarks? I'm not at all adverse to technology, nor advancement. I'm well aware that the slide-rule has been replaced, and I don't think for a second that it's a bad thing. My point was that schools, especially at the junior levels should be concentrating on basics. Providing the children a foundation on which to grow their knowledge, and I don't think that foundation necessarily needs to start off with iPads.

 

[Buckster]

But still, e-books cost less than paper books, especially when you factor in the costs of manufacturing, warehousing, transport to schools, and disposal at the end of their short lifespans.

Granted, however I was meaning the cost to the consumer/student; the difference between electronic and paper books is minimal, at least in the Canadian system. It may be different in your area. The other point is: There's no such thing as a second-hand e-book.

Comparing it to the current electronic disposal methods in Asia is invalid for the simple fact that a wrong over there doesn't turn a wrong over here into a right. The current disposal methods in Asia need to stop, and as soon as you rule Asia, you can put that on your agenda. As long as it continues though, it doesn't make paper mill pollution "right" or valid in any way.

I'm not suggesting for a second that pollution in any form is 'right', or that one is better than another. I am stating however, that the pollution arising from the North American/European production of text-books and paper-based educational material is many orders of magnitude less harmful than the south-east Asian production/ of electronics. The reality of the situation is, regardless of western views, most of this processing does, and will continue to occur in south-east Asia simply because of cheap labour and lax environmental standards. Like it or lump it... it is.

The electronics are going to keep getting produced, used and discarded. That's reality. The world is not going to suddenly abandon electronic devices and shift back to paper and ink just because Asia is disposing of them in horribly pollutive ways, so you're just going to have to deal with it. News flash: We're not going back to the horse and buggy in order to curtail all the pollution associated with modern powered vehicles either, so take a deep breath, pull up your big boy pants, and figure out how to live with those kinds of facts.

Really? YOu need to add remarks like those? I'm well aware that electronics are here to stay; I'm a user of technology myself, and I don't dispute the value of it. I do dispute wisdom of educational systems which fail to teach the basics such as "times tables" and other basic arithmatic, as well as cursive writing.

If you have a problem with what the schools teach, then get involved with others in the community and correct it. The decisions regarding what to teach and why are made by local school boards.

Again, that may be true where you live, for those of us living in North Igloo Junction, the curriculum is a provincial matter. Even the provinicial teacher's federation has problems making changes, but I don't dispute your point. I choose not to tilt at that particular windmill simply because I have no horse in the race, and thus other than the extorting of funds from me through taxiation, it matters not a whit.

It's all well and good to cry that we don't teach kids how to use a slide rule. But it's hypocritical when NOBODY NEEDS to use one anymore and EVERYONE, including you, uses a calculator. And like it or not, it's the same with every other technology that's replaced the older ways of doing things.

I don't recall mentioning slide-rules...

My daughter knows how to do math without a calculator on a napkin, just like I do. She learned it in school, just like I did. My grandaughter is already learning the same thing now in kindergarten and she's all excited about it. Her latest "game" to play with us is what she calls "equals". We take turns asking each other what a number plus another number equals, and then she works it out WITHOUT A CALCULATOR.

Then you sir, are a good parent, and have done her a service that far too many modern parents fail to! I say that in complete sincerity!

As far as I can tell, this idea that nobody in the younger generation knows how to do simple maths without a calculator is just more rhetoric from you folks trying to make an argument that modern technology is so much worse than the tech us older folks learned to use. Do they get it drilled in as much as we did? No, but then again, electronic calculators didn't exist when I was learning it, so they HAD to drill it into me and my peers.

No, it's not a lot of rhetoric, at least not in Canada. When I was teaching basic trades training to new sailors fresh out of basic training (about ten years ago), one of the phases of training involved a great deal of what I would call "moderate mental math" and the ability to calculate an equation which was, more or less, a two digit number divided by 60 and mulipled by either 1/4, 1/2 or 3/4. I typically needed to spend at least a half-day going over HOW to do these calculations, and this for people who were, on average, no more than three years out of high-school!

Do you REALLY think it matters so much HOW we get to a math answer, as long as we get to it? Do you really think that the whole point of doing math is to do math, or is the point of doing it to get to an answer that is useful for some purpose? If you think it's the former, then why do you use a calculator, a spreadsheet or a database? Why aren't YOU using a slide rule, if it's so all-fired important these days? Why aren't YOU doing all your calculations with pencil and paper if that's the ONLY valid way to get to an answer?
Just stop, already. If you want to go back to banging rocks together, be my guest, but stop wagging your finger at those of us who are eager to move up to the next step in human knowledge and ability.

Again, is it really necessary to add the belittling remarks? I'm not at all adverse to technology, nor advancement. I'm well aware that the slide-rule has been replaced, and I don't think for a second that it's a bad thing. My point was that schools, especially at the junior levels should be concentrating on basics. Providing the children a foundation on which to grow their knowledge, and I don't think that foundation necessarily needs to start off with iPads.

Allow me to remind you that this is a thread about tablets and, in particular, tablets used by schools these days to replace textbooks, encyclopedias, paper tests, etc.

Some, you included, have been trying to make a case that use of TABLETS by schools these days is somehow evil. Accusations pointed TABLET use by school systems leads to a population that is FAT, LAZY, ate up with DIABETES and, most particular to you, some level of IDIOCY because they'll no longer be able to function at basic levels - BECAUSE OF TABLETS if you're addressing the THREAD THEME.

I don't buy the premise of ANY of those arguments that you folks against tablet use by schools is trying to make. You folks have YET to show actual causation between tablet use and any of your asserted outcomes due to them.

 

[tirediron]

...and, most particular to you, some level of IDIOCY because they'll no longer be able to function at basic levels - BECAUSE OF TABLETS if you're addressing the THREAD THEME.

I don't really think a different viewpoint calls for a term such as "idiocy"....

...I don't buy the premise of ANY of those arguments that you folks against tablet use by schools is trying to make.

As is your privilege; after all different viewpoints and the ability to debate them is one of the benefits of civilized society.

... You folks have YET to show actual causation between tablet use and any of your asserted outcomes due to them.

I am not against the use of tablets, I am against the mandated use of tablets and against the thought of them somehow being considered essential. Nice to have? Yes. Beneficial? I suppose. Essential? Sorry, don't buy it.