Asked to shoot families for church photo directory

[Derrel]

Ideally, I would have the background behind the family be quite a good ways behind the posed group. Like 25 to 40 feet if possible, in a big room. Moving the umbrella back a ways minimizes rapid fall-off and evens out the light lost across the width of a group. It also makes the lighting just a little bit crisp...and using ONE, single light source keeps eyeglasses from flaring from a fill light. These days there's a tendency toward people urging the use of massive light sources, which is fine, but on family groups for a novice shooter, adding a fill light introduces a lot of reflection issues for eyeglasses, and adds complexity. Using the 150 W-s mono in that umbrella at full power, the background if it is 25 to 40 feet away will most likely be very dark with the lens at f/9 and the shutter at 1/125 second, and not a "ton" of ambient light spilling in from outdoors.

In a group shot, soft, shadowless light just allows everything to mush together. A 60-inch parabolic umbrella, the exact kind I linked to, will provide a big wash of moderately soft/moderately hard light, with just the right amount of shadows to make people look good, and with it placed at NOT too extreme an angle, it's fairly on-axis, but not dead on, so it minimizes big nose shadows, and also keeps the shadows falling moderately straight back, so you will not have a lot of problems with shadows from having the main light too much off to the side.

You are NOT AFTER a side-oriented, Rembrandt-type lighting scheme here!

I'm trying to suggest a setup for a beginner, that will work and work well, with basically zero training. Kundalini mentioned a 13 foot light stand...I'm not. I'm suggesting a 9.5 foot stand and a specific umbrella and a specific light. 13 foot stands are however, bigger, wider-based, and almost always qualify as moderately heavy-duty, so that is one reason to consider a nice, air-cushioned, 13 footer, but that much height will not be a necessity. I do NOT think I would use the 60 inch umbrella any higher than 9 feet for a few reasons, but mainly shadow placement, and the fact that I am telling you to work with the parents SEATED. This has several advantages. it keeps clowning around down. It gives parents control over the littler kids. And it removes the need for another 3.5 feet of stand height, and it also keeps the camera at a workable camera height. Among other things.

 

[Rocketman1978]

Ideally, I would have the background behind the family be quite a good ways behind the posed group. Like 25 to 40 feet if possible, in a big room. Moving the umbrella back a ways minimizes rapid fall-off and evens out the light lost across the width of a group. It also makes the lighting just a little bit crisp...and using ONE, single light source keeps eyeglasses from flaring from a fill light. These days there's a tendency toward people urging the use of massive light sources, which is fine, but on family groups for a novice shooter, adding a fill light introduces a lot of reflection issues for eyeglasses, and adds complexity. Using the 150 W-s mono in that umbrella at full power, the background if it is 25 to 40 feet away will most likely be very dark with the lens at f/9 and the shutter at 1/125 second, and not a "ton" of ambient light spilling in from outdoors.

In a group shot, soft, shadowless light just allows everything to mush together. A 60-inch parabolic umbrella, the exact kind I linked to, will provide a big wash of moderately soft/moderately hard light, with just the right amount of shadows to make people look good, and with it placed at NOT too extreme an angle, it's fairly on-axis, but not dead on, so it minimizes big nose shadows, and also keeps the shadows falling moderately straight back, so you will not have a lot of problems with shadows from having the main light too much off to the side.

You are NOT AFTER a side-oriented, Rembrandt-type lighting scheme here!

I'm trying to suggest a setup for a beginner, that will work and work well, with basically zero training. Kundalini mentioned a 13 foot light stand...I'm not. I'm suggesting a 9.5 foot stand and a specific umbrella and a specific light. 13 foot stands are however, bigger, wider-based, and almost always qualify as moderately heavy-duty, so that is one reason to consider a nice, air-cushioned, 13 footer, but that much height will not be a necessity. I do NOT think I would use the 60 inch umbrella any higher than 9 feet for a few reasons, but mainly shadow placement, and the fact that I am telling you to work with the parents SEATED. This has several advantages. it keeps clowning around down. It gives parents control over the littler kids. And it removes the need for another 3.5 feet of stand height, and it also keeps the camera at a workable camera height. Among other things.

Okay got it! I just ordered the exact setup you presented me from Adorama, it should be on its way today or tomorrow; thanks again for assembling a 'beginner kit' for me. That is truly all I needed, something inexpensive yet functional that a lighting novice can use to help with my opportunity as well as give me a platform from which to learn lighting techniques.

Last question, how far from the subjects shall I have the umbrella that is 11 or 2 o'clock pointing down at a 30 degree angle? I see you referenced subjects 25-40' from the back wall but I don't see your mention of the distance between the single light source/umbrella and subject.

Thanks again, Derrel, I think your advice is going to really help me. Before I was scratching my head a bit as to where I was going to shoot these people, now the possibilities have opened up significantly since light isn't as much a concern.

 

[kundalini]

..... Kundalini mentioned a 13 foot light stand...I'm not. I'm suggesting a 9.5 foot stand and a specific umbrella and a specific light. 13 foot stands are however, bigger, wider-based, and almost always qualify as moderately heavy-duty, so that is one reason to consider a nice, air-cushioned, 13 footer, but that much height will not be a necessity. I do NOT think I would use the 60 inch umbrella any higher than 9 feet for a few reasons, but mainly shadow placement, and the fact that I am telling you to work with the parents SEATED. This has several advantages. it keeps clowning around down. It gives parents control over the littler kids. And it removes the need for another 3.5 feet of stand height, and it also keeps the camera at a workable camera height. Among other things.

The suggestion for a 13 footer was aimed at options for future uses, if the OP is going to make a purchase anyway. I haven't had to extend the stands to their full length, but have easily exceeded 10'. This has kept the smallest diameter extension (read weakest) mostly still in the column. With the center column collapsed, it is only about chest high. The air-cushioning has reduced pinching skin when lowering with a monolight and larger modifier mounted. I only use the 8 & 10 foot Medium Duty stands for speedlights and holding reflectors/diffusers.

Just my 2¢.

 

[Derrel]

Yes, that makes sense. Overkill on stands can pay some benefits. The more a person uses stands, the more it pays to go "big" or "heavy". The last 5 years I've moved to C-stands, which will almost certainly outlive me. Lighting distance from the umbrella's stand to family groups is going to be in the 9 to 12 foot range...not so close that it's got rapid fall-off! What I am envisioning for you is working with a fairly broad "wash" of light that'll be easy to work with. Not trying to get a soft, soft "wrap-around" look, but rather a 50/50 soft/crisp look. A "moderately crisp" light look is what I am suggesting, and that's why I said a 60 inch umbrella, white, reflecting, on a 9.5 foot stand, and also not aimed down steeply, but at roughly 30 degrees inclination and at 11 or 2 o'clock, and from not too close a distance.

On the biggest groups, like say 8 people, I would move the light to the longer distance, and kind of aim it "past the middle" of the group, and also move it more off to the side, not at 11 o clock or 2 o'clock, but more like say 9 o'clock or 4 o'clock, but kind of "aim in front of the group", so that the light level will more or less "equalize" by "skimming" the light more in FRONT OF THE LINE of faces.

Again...the CLOSER the light is to the people, the more-rapidly it falls off to deep,black shadows. Moving a larger light, like a 60 incher, farther back cuts the f/stop, but it also makes the rate of fall-off less of an issue. I'm mentioning this because you have no flash meter.

 

[bratkinson]

One of the things the OP mentioned was doing WB during post processing. I'd be more likely to set a custom WB in the camera and go with that for the whole shoot. I'd also shoot both JPG and RAW. In the interest of saving PP time, if I thought I could 'get away with it', I'd probably use the CWB shot JPGs and do a very light 'across the board' touch up of whatever I thought was needed in Lightroom. Of course, shooting with only RAW and doing all the WB in post is the 'better' choice. But realizing that the finished 'work' will be roughly 1.5"x3" small pictures printed on some glossy paper, having everything 'absolutely perfect' isn't a requirement. I have to keep telling myself the same thing for the church events I've been shooting. I even have one this week!

But...I'd also expect some of the members to ask about getting a couple of prints. I get it all the time when doing church events. Being that I shoot with my glasses on and not pressing very hard against the eyecup, most of my shots are 'wide'...all the way around. The downside, of course, is my finished pictures must all be cropped. The upside is I have lots of leeway to crop for printing...4x6, 5x7, and even 8x10. For that reason, my post processing sequence is a bit screwy in that I output a full set of everything where all the PP is done EXCEPT for cropping. Then I make one or 'passes' using either LR or PS elements to crop to specific sizes for 'show' or printing, as needed.

 

[Rocketman1978]

Yes, that makes sense. Overkill on stands can pay some benefits. The more a person uses stands, the more it pays to go "big" or "heavy". The last 5 years I've moved to C-stands, which will almost certainly outlive me. Lighting distance from the umbrella's stand to family groups is going to be in the 9 to 12 foot range...not so close that it's got rapid fall-off! What I am envisioning for you is working with a fairly broad "wash" of light that'll be easy to work with. Not trying to get a soft, soft "wrap-around" look, but rather a 50/50 soft/crisp look. A "moderately crisp" light look is what I am suggesting, and that's why I said a 60 inch umbrella, white, reflecting, on a 9.5 foot stand, and also not aimed down steeply, but at roughly 30 degrees inclination and at 11 or 2 o'clock, and from not too close a distance.

On the biggest groups, like say 8 people, I would move the light to the longer distance, and kind of aim it "past the middle" of the group, and also move it more off to the side, not at 11 o clock or 2 o'clock, but more like say 9 o'clock or 4 o'clock, but kind of "aim in front of the group", so that the light level will more or less "equalize" by "skimming" the light more in FRONT OF THE LINE of faces.

Again...the CLOSER the light is to the people, the more-rapidly it falls off to deep,black shadows. Moving a larger light, like a 60 incher, farther back cuts the f/stop, but it also makes the rate of fall-off less of an issue. I'm mentioning this because you have no flash meter.

Feeling a little more intimidated than previously but I'll experiment with light placement. Fortunately for me the average size of the groups is 2-3. Our church consists mostly of middle-aged to older couples with a few families of 3 and 4 sprinkled throughout. I can only think of one instance where we have a large family and they have 8 (if they're all present that day).

I stopped in and took a gander around, room size and unobstructed wall space isn't looking to be in my favor. I dug up some old shots of when we moved into the building and sent via PM.

One of the things the OP mentioned was doing WB during post processing. I'd be more likely to set a custom WB in the camera and go with that for the whole shoot. I'd also shoot both JPG and RAW. In the interest of saving PP time, if I thought I could 'get away with it', I'd probably use the CWB shot JPGs and do a very light 'across the board' touch up of whatever I thought was needed in Lightroom. Of course, shooting with only RAW and doing all the WB in post is the 'better' choice. But realizing that the finished 'work' will be roughly 1.5"x3" small pictures printed on some glossy paper, having everything 'absolutely perfect' isn't a requirement. I have to keep telling myself the same thing for the church events I've been shooting. I even have one this week!

But...I'd also expect some of the members to ask about getting a couple of prints. I get it all the time when doing church events. Being that I shoot with my glasses on and not pressing very hard against the eyecup, most of my shots are 'wide'...all the way around. The downside, of course, is my finished pictures must all be cropped. The upside is I have lots of leeway to crop for printing...4x6, 5x7, and even 8x10. For that reason, my post processing sequence is a bit screwy in that I output a full set of everything where all the PP is done EXCEPT for cropping. Then I make one or 'passes' using either LR or PS elements to crop to specific sizes for 'show' or printing, as needed.

Honestly I typically shoot AWB and the result is rarely what I want when shooting indoors so I find myself correcting WB via LR or PS afterwards. I like your thought of shooting JPG and RAW, that's assuming I can get what I want SOOC. Good point about the shots ultimately being 1.5"x3 (actually smaller if I remember correctly), however as a courtesy to our members we do provide a free 8x10. LOL, maybe we can do a 5x7 this year so I'm less worried about perfection.

 

[Derrel]

When exposing with electronic flash, setting the camera to the FLASH WB setting works pretty well with most white umbrellas. Auto WB is not what one wants to use, since the ambient light will almost always be way off from what the electronic flash color temp is. Smaller groups of two to four are the easiest, and allow much more freedom in posing and in the location where a "group shot" can be made. You can DO this job!

 

[Rocketman1978]

When exposing with electronic flash, setting the camera to the FLASH WB setting works pretty well with most white umbrellas. Auto WB is not what one wants to use, since the ambient light will almost always be way off from what the electronic flash color temp is. Smaller groups of two to four are the easiest, and allow much more freedom in posing and in the location where a "group shot" can be made. You can DO this job!

Thanks a million Darrel, both for the posts here and time via PM! Thanks to everyone else also, can't thank you guys enough! I got my Flashpoint setup yesterday, anxious to do some practice both offsite and on.

 

[astroNikon]

When exposing with electronic flash, setting the camera to the FLASH WB setting works pretty well with most white umbrellas. Auto WB is not what one wants to use, since the ambient light will almost always be way off from what the electronic flash color temp is. Smaller groups of two to four are the easiest, and allow much more freedom in posing and in the location where a "group shot" can be made. You can DO this job!

Thanks a million Darrel, both for the posts here and time via PM! Thanks to everyone else also, can't thank you guys enough! I got my Flashpoint setup yesterday, anxious to do some practice both offsite and on.

That's jumping in with both feet (buying equipment) and a positive attitude :thumbup:

 

[Rocketman1978]

When exposing with electronic flash, setting the camera to the FLASH WB setting works pretty well with most white umbrellas. Auto WB is not what one wants to use, since the ambient light will almost always be way off from what the electronic flash color temp is. Smaller groups of two to four are the easiest, and allow much more freedom in posing and in the location where a "group shot" can be made. You can DO this job!

Thanks a million Darrel, both for the posts here and time via PM! Thanks to everyone else also, can't thank you guys enough! I got my Flashpoint setup yesterday, anxious to do some practice both offsite and on.

That's jumping in with both feet (buying equipment) and a positive attitude :thumbup:

Ha, that's the way I do it. Appreciate your offer of loaning equipment and teaching about controlling light. I may still take you up in the latter!