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crazychild1988

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Hey all so im curious about astrophotography and Im just wondering if anybody here has tried their hand at it yet. Im looking for some help as the picture I've done lately look alittle orange after stacking them. Also any pointers would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance
 
A few members here dabble now and again in this genre and are helpful. I suggest you have a look at some astronomy forums where some serious astrophotographers tend to hang out. Ice in space, stargazer's lounge, cloudy nights, and astronomy forums are good starting points. All are friendly and helpful and all have astrophotography boards.

The orange cast is very likely light pollution - are you near a city?
 
Not really but Im on a military post so it couldve been that. I plan on going out this week and take some more out in the country
 
Astrophotography is the bomb.com! I've done a fair bit of it, and the number one thing is patience... And a tripod! What's your current setup, what are you currently doing and pursuing? It will help us help you if we know.

As for the orange, I'd say light pollution. I usually just convert to B&W or add some blue and tone down the saturation. Try to find some country side to shoot in!

As for general tips... When you're first aligning your shot, set your ISO as high as it will go. This, of course, will create disgustingly noisy images, but the purpose is to make sure you have the right focus and composition without having to wait for the 20 second shutter time. Once you've got it, put your ISO back down to where you can get the shots you want with the shutter speed under 30 seconds. Unless you're doing star trails intentionally, longer than 30 seconds might show some undesired movement. Have your focus set to infinity, or focus on a light far away. Umm, for the moon you're going to want a longer telephoto, but like I mentioned, we don't really know what you're going for. Stars? Constellations? The moon? Planets? Give us some info, man! And mostly, you're going to want to take a lot of shots, and with astrophotography you learn a whole lot about the exposure triangle. For example, a high f stop makes the stars more star-like! Or at least street lamps more star-like xD

Also, another member here has a great thread full of astrophotography tips. I can try to find it for you tomorrow and put the link here! Good luck!
 
It's probably sky glow (light pollution). Astrophotography involves several steps -- each can require a bit of work to learn to master.

1) Image acquisition is all about collecting the data (the "light" frames, "dark" frames, "flat" frames, and "bias" frames)

2) Image preprocessing is all about taking the data and running it through the stacking and processing minimize noise, reduce background, etc.

3) Image post processing is where you start "stretching" and enhancing the data to bring out the detail in it.

To give you a before/after idea... here's an image I worked on a few months ago. I am NOT one of the better imagers in my astronomy club -- I'm still working on it. Some of these guys would blow your mind with what they can do.

Here's a "before"

$Dumbbell Light.webp

And here's an "after"
$Dumbbell Nebula copy.webp

Note the INTENSE sky glow in the before image. The image in the "before" is a single frame taken at ISO 800 for 240 seconds (4 minutes) through an f/11 scope. I'm using a Canon 60Da which is going to be a LOT more sensitive than a typical DSLR (a 60Da is specifically modified for astrophotography... to get the same image with terrestrial DSLR would require an exposure many times longer.)

If you look carefully, you can see the detail of the nebula hiding in that skyglow. The "data" is there... it's just a matter of teasing the data out.

While that's just a single frame, I need to process out the noise and sky glow. To knock that back, I need a lot of images and I need to stack them. So I took 16 "light" frames, 8 "dark" frames, and also have a saved set of "flat" frames and "bias" frames for this camera/scope/focal-length combination. The images were stacked and processed using PixInsight.

Incidentally... this image is the "Dumbbell" Nebula (also known as "Messier 27" or just M27 for short.) The blue areas probably needed to be more green (that's my processing) -- I did some digging and found that the gases in the center are glowing in OIII (the Oxygen III wavelength is a green color -- not blue). It's difficult to maintain accurate color because I'm stretching each color channel independently -- so this tells me I over-stretched the blue and under-stretched the green.
 
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Very interesting. How can one learn more about how to do the post-processing for Astrophotography?
 
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Very interesting. How can one learn more about how to do the post-processing for Astrophotography?

That's a long a complicated subject. It can take years to learn -- astrophotography is far more complicated than regular photography.

For starters... image acquisition:

The Earth is rotating on it's axis -- moving from West to East. This causes the illusion that the sky is moving from East to West. If you use a _very_ wide angle lens to capture a huge section of sky, you may be able to get away with a tripod. You can use something called the "Rule of 600" to find the exposure time. The "rule of 600" says that if you divide 600 by the focal length of the lens (whatever that happens to be) then the result is the number of seconds you can use for an exposure in which the stars will NOT "elongate" (start to grow tails due to movement of the sky). The rule is based on the assumption of a 35mm film camera (or full frame digital camera). With a full frame camera and a 14mm lens, you could do 600 ÷ 14 = 42.9 (about 43 seconds). But if you are using a crop-frame camera, you have to divide that value by your crop factor. That's going to be 1.5 to 1.6 depending on your camera. That's going to drop you down to about 27 to 30 seconds per frame. With an 18-55mm kit lens on an APS-C DSLR, it's about 21 seconds. Going longer than that and you risk elongated stars UNLESS your camera is mounted on something that tracks the sky. Sometimes you deliberately want star trails ... that's a completely different topic but for that you would, of course, go longer.

When imaging a specific object (such as I did here), the field of view is considerably narrower and this _requires_ tracking. This gets complicated... quickly. If you are using a telescope on an alt/az mount (level to the horizon) then the image will appear to "twist" as you track it -- and that's no good... it'll result in blurred images. The mount has to be equatorially aligned.

It's not *just* a matter of using an equatorial mount (this is a mount where the major axis of rotation (the "right ascension axis") is parallel to Earth's axis of rotation. That means as the Earth rotates from West to East... the mount is rotating from East to West ... and at exactly the same angular speed. This causes objects to be maintained in the field of view. But getting the mount aligned accurately is VERY important. For visual use it just needs to be close. For astro-images purposes it really needs to be accurate. There are numerous techniques to accurately align the mount. One of the most popular is something called the "drift alignment" method. I'll skip explaining that because it'd be a whole post in itself. You can find numerous articles on the net that explain how to do it.

The mount needs to be SOLID.... I mean REALLY SOLID. I can't over-emphasize that enough. Serious imagers spend a lot of money on the scopes... but they probably spend even MORE money on their mounts. If your mount isn't rock solid then it doesn't really matter how good your camera and scope are. A decent mount for astro-imaging probably starts at around $1000-1500 and goes up from there (to be clear... I'm JUST talking about the mount... that's not the price of the scope.) Also you don't want to overload the mount. Too much weight causes the mount to flex and you get bad tracking. Take whatever the "marketing" version is of how much weight the mount can handle... divide by 2. Try to avoid going over that much weight (some people say 60% of whatever the manufacturer "claims" is the real limit you should use.)

And even with all this care and precision... the tracking will STILL blur. So the next element is to use auto-guiding. This involves a 2nd camera and usually (but not always) a 2nd scope. These are both on the same mount. This adds weight to the mount so of course all this needs to be factored into the mount capacity. The auto-guider takes an initial shot of the sky using a wide field view. You pick a suitable "guide" star within that frame. The tracking software then does some automatic calibration to learn the responsiveness of the mount and then it's ready to go (PHD is the most popular auto-guiding software and it's free). Once tracking begins, give the scope about 5 minutes to let the auto-guider settle and then you can start imaging.

The ability to knock back noise is a Poisson progression... the noise can be reduced by the square root of the number of "light" frames that you shoot. e.g. if you shoot 9 frames then you can reduce the noise by a factor of 3 (the square root of 9). Shoot 16 frames and you can reduce noise by a factor of 4 (the square root of 16). Most imagers indicate there's no much point going over 25 light frames. These frames are not used to increase light gathering... they are used to reduce noise and create a smooth image.

The idea is that there will be a TON of noise in the image... but also a lot of faint detail. It's VERY hard to tell the difference. Take enough frames and the faint detail will consistently appear at the same spot in each frame. The noise will usually be random. Some noise will be consistent (pattern noise)... but a technique called "dithering" can eliminate that. When "dithering", the image acquisition software (I used "Backyard EOS") will communicate with the auto-guider. Between each "light" frame, the image acquisition software will tell the auto-guiding software to perform a random shift of the image. The faint detail which is real will shift in the image frame according to how much the scope moved. The pattern noise, on the other hand, will stay put. This makes it easier for the stacking software to determine which data is "real" and which is noise.

You also need "dark" frames... these are frames shot at the same temperature, ISO, and shutter speed as the "light" frames... but with the shutter closed (or scope capped). The general guideline is to shoot half as many dark frames as you did light frames. These frames contain noise caused by the camera sensor itself. This helps the stacking software determine how much noise is normally present in your camera (at that temperature... noise is related to the physical temperature of the sensor... hotter temps produce more noise. Professional imaging cameras for astrophotography use "cooled" cameras to reduce the noise.)

You also need something called "flat" frames. All camera lenses have some vignetting. Turns out telescopes are basically big camera lenses and, not surprisingly, they also have vignetting. Typically the center of an image is brighter than the edges. While this normally is not noticeable, it's a problem for astrophotography because the image data has to be "stretched" to tease out the detail. This "stretching" process also has the undesirable side-effect of exaggerating the vignetting problem. The "flat" frames are a series of images taken by the same camera, scope, focal length... in order to detect _very_ slight differences in light distribution across the frame. Believe it or not the image stacking software can detect these faint differences (not normally visible to the human eye) and fix them. If you don't fix them then you WILL notice the uneven lighting across the frame once the data is stretched.

You can also gather something called "bias" frames. A "bias" frame is technically a 0 second exposure. In order for your camera to work, it has to apply a charge to the sensor and then do a readout. The idea is to find out how much of a charge is on the sensor just to make it operate at all. That's the "bias". The point of this is give the software the bias as a baseline. If you subtract the bias from the dark, then you end up with the amount of data in noise over and above the baseline just based on sensor temperature and image duration and ISO. This helps the stacking software do a better job processing out noise and determine what data is "real".

Learning to stack is a process in itself. I'd start with something called "Registax" if what you are imaging are planets. If you are imaging deep space objects then I'd start with DeepSkyStacker. Both are free. They are not as advanced as some other tools... but free is good when you're learning. Some guys use Photoshop (the top imager in our club uses Photoshop -- I find it awkward to work with for astrophotography because of some of the steps involved.) I use PixInsight (PixInsight is not free and it's got a bit of a learning curve... but I think it's very good.)

Once you have stacked data and the preprocessing is done (btw... it can take a LONG time to preprocess the data depending on your computer. On a very high end computer it might crank for 15-20 minutes. On an older slower computer it might work on the data for quite a few hours) you can start 'stretching' the data. This is the process of trying to tease out the detail and further minimize the background noise. This is a bit of a dark art. My astronomy club has two astrophotography groups and quite a few images who meet twice per month. You can spend years working on learning the techniques to process images.
 
That's a long a complicated subject. It can take years to learn -- astrophotography is far more complicated than regular photography.

For starters... image acquisition:

The Earth is rotating on it's axis -- moving from West to East. This causes the illusion that the sky is moving from East to West. If you use a _very_ wide angle lens to capture a huge section of sky, you may be able to get away with a tripod. You can use something called the "Rule of 600" to find the exposure time. The "rule of 600" says that if you divide 600 by the focal length of the lens (whatever that happens to be) then the result is the number of seconds you can use for an exposure in which the stars will NOT "elongate" (start to grow tails due to movement of the sky). The rule is based on the assumption of a 35mm film camera (or full frame digital camera). With a full frame camera and a 14mm lens, you could do 600 ÷ 14 = 42.9 (about 43 seconds). But if you are using a crop-frame camera, you have to divide that value by your crop factor. That's going to be 1.5 to 1.6 depending on your camera. That's going to drop you down to about 27 to 30 seconds per frame. With an 18-55mm kit lens on an APS-C DSLR, it's about 21 seconds. Going longer than that and you risk elongated stars UNLESS your camera is mounted on something that tracks the sky. Sometimes you deliberately want star trails ... that's a completely different topic but for that you would, of course, go longer.

When imaging a specific object (such as I did here), the field of view is considerably narrower and this _requires_ tracking. This gets complicated... quickly. If you are using a telescope on an alt/az mount (level to the horizon) then the image will appear to "twist" as you track it -- and that's no good... it'll result in blurred images. The mount has to be equatorially aligned.

It's not *just* a matter of using an equatorial mount (this is a mount where the major axis of rotation (the "right ascension axis") is parallel to Earth's axis of rotation. That means as the Earth rotates from West to East... the mount is rotating from East to West ... and at exactly the same angular speed. This causes objects to be maintained in the field of view. But getting the mount aligned accurately is VERY important. For visual use it just needs to be close. For astro-images purposes it really needs to be accurate. There are numerous techniques to accurately align the mount. One of the most popular is something called the "drift alignment" method. I'll skip explaining that because it'd be a whole post in itself. You can find numerous articles on the net that explain how to do it.

The mount needs to be SOLID.... I mean REALLY SOLID. I can't over-emphasize that enough. Serious imagers spend a lot of money on the scopes... but they probably spend even MORE money on their mounts. If your mount isn't rock solid then it doesn't really matter how good your camera and scope are. A decent mount for astro-imaging probably starts at around $1000-1500 and goes up from there (to be clear... I'm JUST talking about the mount... that's not the price of the scope.) Also you don't want to overload the mount. Too much weight causes the mount to flex and you get bad tracking. Take whatever the "marketing" version is of how much weight the mount can handle... divide by 2. Try to avoid going over that much weight (some people say 60% of whatever the manufacturer "claims" is the real limit you should use.)

And even with all this care and precision... the tracking will STILL blur. So the next element is to use auto-guiding. This involves a 2nd camera and usually (but not always) a 2nd scope. These are both on the same mount. This adds weight to the mount so of course all this needs to be factored into the mount capacity. The auto-guider takes an initial shot of the sky using a wide field view. You pick a suitable "guide" star within that frame. The tracking software then does some automatic calibration to learn the responsiveness of the mount and then it's ready to go (PHD is the most popular auto-guiding software and it's free). Once tracking begins, give the scope about 5 minutes to let the auto-guider settle and then you can start imaging.

The ability to knock back noise is a Poisson progression... the noise can be reduced by the square root of the number of "light" frames that you shoot. e.g. if you shoot 9 frames then you can reduce the noise by a factor of 3 (the square root of 9). Shoot 16 frames and you can reduce noise by a factor of 4 (the square root of 16). Most imagers indicate there's no much point going over 25 light frames. These frames are not used to increase light gathering... they are used to reduce noise and create a smooth image.

The idea is that there will be a TON of noise in the image... but also a lot of faint detail. It's VERY hard to tell the difference. Take enough frames and the faint detail will consistently appear at the same spot in each frame. The noise will usually be random. Some noise will be consistent (pattern noise)... but a technique called "dithering" can eliminate that. When "dithering", the image acquisition software (I used "Backyard EOS") will communicate with the auto-guider. Between each "light" frame, the image acquisition software will tell the auto-guiding software to perform a random shift of the image. The faint detail which is real will shift in the image frame according to how much the scope moved. The pattern noise, on the other hand, will stay put. This makes it easier for the stacking software to determine which data is "real" and which is noise.

You also need "dark" frames... these are frames shot at the same temperature, ISO, and shutter speed as the "light" frames... but with the shutter closed (or scope capped). The general guideline is to shoot half as many dark frames as you did light frames. These frames contain noise caused by the camera sensor itself. This helps the stacking software determine how much noise is normally present in your camera (at that temperature... noise is related to the physical temperature of the sensor... hotter temps produce more noise. Professional imaging cameras for astrophotography use "cooled" cameras to reduce the noise.)

You also need something called "flat" frames. All camera lenses have some vignetting. Turns out telescopes are basically big camera lenses and, not surprisingly, they also have vignetting. Typically the center of an image is brighter than the edges. While this normally is not noticeable, it's a problem for astrophotography because the image data has to be "stretched" to tease out the detail. This "stretching" process also has the undesirable side-effect of exaggerating the vignetting problem. The "flat" frames are a series of images taken by the same camera, scope, focal length... in order to detect _very_ slight differences in light distribution across the frame. Believe it or not the image stacking software can detect these faint differences (not normally visible to the human eye) and fix them. If you don't fix them then you WILL notice the uneven lighting across the frame once the data is stretched.

You can also gather something called "bias" frames. A "bias" frame is technically a 0 second exposure. In order for your camera to work, it has to apply a charge to the sensor and then do a readout. The idea is to find out how much of a charge is on the sensor just to make it operate at all. That's the "bias". The point of this is give the software the bias as a baseline. If you subtract the bias from the dark, then you end up with the amount of data in noise over and above the baseline just based on sensor temperature and image duration and ISO. This helps the stacking software do a better job processing out noise and determine what data is "real".

Learning to stack is a process in itself. I'd start with something called "Registax" if what you are imaging are planets. If you are imaging deep space objects then I'd start with DeepSkyStacker. Both are free. They are not as advanced as some other tools... but free is good when you're learning. Some guys use Photoshop (the top imager in our club uses Photoshop -- I find it awkward to work with for astrophotography because of some of the steps involved.) I use PixInsight (PixInsight is not free and it's got a bit of a learning curve... but I think it's very good.)

Once you have stacked data and the preprocessing is done (btw... it can take a LONG time to preprocess the data depending on your computer. On a very high end computer it might crank for 15-20 minutes. On an older slower computer it might work on the data for quite a few hours) you can start 'stretching' the data. This is the process of trying to tease out the detail and further minimize the background noise. This is a bit of a dark art. My astronomy club has two astrophotography groups and quite a few images who meet twice per month. You can spend years working on learning the techniques to process images.

Wow. All I was thinking through this whole comment was $$$$$$$$$$. But good advice too! I'm sure the OP and other readers will appreciate it! :)
 
Very useful, TCampbell.
Thanks a lot indeed!
 
Daryl, There's a price progression.

I generally recommend people start by shooting "wide field" objects (e.g. camera on a non-tracking tripod) using the widest angle lens you've got. That's the easiest.

As you narrow the field of view... it gets a little harder. You can go after particularly "bright" objects so that long exposures are not necessary... the moon is f/11 with the shutter speed set to the inverse of the ISO (e.g. ISO 100 then 1/100th... ISO 200 is 1/200th, etc.) That's the "base" and you get to play the equivalent exposure trading game.

Planets are a bit more difficult... still short exposures, but they're tiny so they require telescopes to see them. But accurate tracking isn't a big deal because the exposure times are so short (and use the free "Registax" software to do the stacking.)

The Andromeda galaxy is a good transition object... it's large. It doesn't actually require a telescope (a long camera lens will work) but requires that you take a variety of exposure times. The core is bright ... but the outer arms are very faint. An exposure which gets the outer arms will blow out the core. An exposure that gets the core will underexpose (and miss) the outer arms. So this is a shot that requires a little work but beginners tend to have good luck with it and it starts to introduce the techniques for fainter deep space objects. Expensive gear is not required.

And Orion Nebula (very prominent this time of year) is one of the easier deep space objects because it's relatively "close" so it's very bright. It does not actually require very long exposure times. (again... short exposure times means that auto-guiding may not be needed at all.)

Auto-guiders aren't particularly expensive... an Orion StarShoot Autoguider is about $279. The software to run it is free if you use PHD (PHD actually stands for "Push Here Dummy" -- no kidding). You could go to YouTube and watch a tutorial video and you'd quickly pick up on how it works. The basics are easy to learn. An Orion ST-80 is a popular guide scope because of it's small size, light weight, and low cost (about $100 -- not a great telescope for visual use -- but more than adequate as a guide scope.)

When you're going after really faint fuzzes... that's where you need a good mount. Also the level of detail you get to see is tied to "Dawes' Limit"; the resolving power of the optics are tied to the physical diameter of the objective lens... bigger is better -- no surprise there. So while you can image faint fuzzes with a tiny scope... you get more detail if you have a big scope. Big scopes, of course, weight more... weighing more means you want a mount that can handle the weight and there goes the price tag.

Going after the faint fuzzies can be frustrating -- and we usually recommend people do visual astronomer for a while (1-3 years) just to enjoy stuff before starting into the hard parts of astrophotography.

I've bagged a LOT of very bad images while trying to learn how to get a decent image. Once upon a time, someone asked Edison if he was frustrated by all his failed attempts to find a working filament for his light bulb. His answer (which I'd have to paraphrase) was along the lines of "no... now of know 3000 things that don't work." Learning astrophotography can be like that... I know 3000 techniques that don't work. Fortunately... along the way I've learned a *few* techniques that actually *do* work. It involves a LOT of trial and error as you learn... definitely NOT recommended for those who are easily frustrated or discouraged if they don't get quick and good results.
 
Daryl, There's a price progression.

I generally recommend people start by shooting "wide field" objects (e.g. camera on a non-tracking tripod) using the widest angle lens you've got. That's the easiest.

As you narrow the field of view... it gets a little harder. You can go after particularly "bright" objects so that long exposures are not necessary... the moon is f/11 with the shutter speed set to the inverse of the ISO (e.g. ISO 100 then 1/100th... ISO 200 is 1/200th, etc.) That's the "base" and you get to play the equivalent exposure trading game.

Planets are a bit more difficult... still short exposures, but they're tiny so they require telescopes to see them. But accurate tracking isn't a big deal because the exposure times are so short (and use the free "Registax" software to do the stacking.)

The Andromeda galaxy is a good transition object... it's large. It doesn't actually require a telescope (a long camera lens will work) but requires that you take a variety of exposure times. The core is bright ... but the outer arms are very faint. An exposure which gets the outer arms will blow out the core. An exposure that gets the core will underexpose (and miss) the outer arms. So this is a shot that requires a little work but beginners tend to have good luck with it and it starts to introduce the techniques for fainter deep space objects. Expensive gear is not required.

And Orion Nebula (very prominent this time of year) is one of the easier deep space objects because it's relatively "close" so it's very bright. It does not actually require very long exposure times. (again... short exposure times means that auto-guiding may not be needed at all.)

Auto-guiders aren't particularly expensive... an Orion StarShoot Autoguider is about $279. The software to run it is free if you use PHD (PHD actually stands for "Push Here Dummy" -- no kidding). You could go to YouTube and watch a tutorial video and you'd quickly pick up on how it works. The basics are easy to learn. An Orion ST-80 is a popular guide scope because of it's small size, light weight, and low cost (about $100 -- not a great telescope for visual use -- but more than adequate as a guide scope.)

When you're going after really faint fuzzes... that's where you need a good mount. Also the level of detail you get to see is tied to "Dawes' Limit"; the resolving power of the optics are tied to the physical diameter of the objective lens... bigger is better -- no surprise there. So while you can image faint fuzzes with a tiny scope... you get more detail if you have a big scope. Big scopes, of course, weight more... weighing more means you want a mount that can handle the weight and there goes the price tag.

Going after the faint fuzzies can be frustrating -- and we usually recommend people do visual astronomer for a while (1-3 years) just to enjoy stuff before starting into the hard parts of astrophotography.

I've bagged a LOT of very bad images while trying to learn how to get a decent image. Once upon a time, someone asked Edison if he was frustrated by all his failed attempts to find a working filament for his light bulb. His answer (which I'd have to paraphrase) was along the lines of "no... now of know 3000 things that don't work." Learning astrophotography can be like that... I know 3000 techniques that don't work. Fortunately... along the way I've learned a *few* techniques that actually *do* work. It involves a LOT of trial and error as you learn... definitely NOT recommended for those who are easily frustrated or discouraged if they don't get quick and good results.

Oooo, you called me Daryl, that's new! But it's 2 l's :D

Anywho, you're certainly right! And I think that applies to all fields of photography - everything you do is a progression. From on-camera flash, to speed lights, to studio strobes. Luckily we have people here, such as yourself, that can give us glimpses into the various stages of photography! I'm certainly still in the "having fun" stage of astrophotography. I don't know if I'll ever move beyond that, but it sure is fun! OP, above all else, have fun and enjoy it!
 
Hey ok so ive tried to get better at this but instead when I stack the pictures they look like ****. Im really confused on the post production part of this technique any advise. The pictures alone look good
 
Can you share more info?

What are you imaging?

What are you using to capture the image (camera, exposure settings, and "lens" ... and if the lens is really a telescope, what's the focal length and focal ratio (or what's the focal length and objective diameter) of the scope?)

Also what are you using to stack?

How many frames did you capture and what type (e.g. how many "light" frames? Did you capture "dark" frames (typically we take the number of "lights" and then capture half as many "darks").

If you post an example of a single "light" frame and also an example of your final result, I may be able to offer some help.

Astrophotography is "hard" -- I won't lie about that. It has quite a long learning curve. It is normal to get poor results at first... and then use those to learn. We gradually get better with time.
 

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