Backdrops and lighting

[Village Idiot]

The D-Lites are nice, no doubt. But I prefer the Bee's not only because the lights are priced right but also because their website is a one stop shop for EVERYTHING you need to get started. The prices are not only good on their lights, but their stands, light modifiers like softboxes, reflectors, etc. are all priced right. All that stuff adds up, and their prices are tough to beat. Plus, to a noob, the lighting stuff can be confusing... at the Bee's site you know everything you buy will work with your lights.

It was a great move on my part, I have absolutely no regrets with my Bee's. If you search the web for happy Bee's customers, they are everywhere. Rarely do you hear anyone that owns them saying anything bad about them.

The color inconsistency is over blown in many cases. I've yet to meet a Bee user that complains about any color inconsistency. Sure, there are boundaries when using things like the B400 and B1600 together in terms of power settings... but having 2 or 3 B800's you rarely run into issues. Tests I've read online show that Bee's are something like 94% accurate whereas more expensive brands are 96% or 98% accurate between shots. Even when there is a slight color shift (which happens with all lights) it's so minor you rarely notice it - especially a noob. A Pro photog shooting for big clients will want something better, for sure - but the hobbyist can't beat the Bee's given the price point and no BS warranty.

Not just color, but inconsistency in power between flashes. Like firing it off and as soon as it shows that it's recharged and ready to roll, firing it off again.

For $50 more, i think that's the difference, you can have a better light with 60w/s more.

Although at the last shoot I was at, some one had a set of Speedotron brown lines running off an Vagabond. The 1200 w/s power pack. I'd spring for a set of profotos if I could do that with a vagabond.

 

[Derrel]

I would not go with monolights, but rather with a proven,reliable, professionally-oriented pack-and-head system. I would not pay "new" prices, since there is tons of used studio lighting gear for sale all across America. My suggestion would be to buy a Speedotron system, either a Black Line or a Brown Line one, used, from eBay or Craigslist or the local classified ads.

The lowest-cost Brown Line system would be a D402 LV 400 watt-second power supply with 4 outlets, for around $100-$150 off eBay. Then, for light heads, add as many as you want. MW3U lights which are umbrella-capable heads, are selling for $75 on eBay all the time. Buy two or three to start with, and then add one M11 head for use with a softbox.

Brown Line D802, 800-watt-second power packs sell for very little money on eBay. Be aware that a Speedotron M90 light unit will deliver roughly twice the output of an Alien Bee at the same "nominal" watt-seconds. The AB 400's have the output of roughly 200 watt-seconds from a Speedotron with an M90 light unit. Alien Bee's specifications are rather inflated,compared with those from the Speedotron system.

Due to the difference in power/output/labelling, a D802 power pack is like buying 4 AB 400's, only at a cost of $125 for the pack and $75 or so for each light head on the used market. IOW, four AB's 400's would be $1000 while the same lighting power in Brown Line would be roughly $425 or so.

 

[Village Idiot]

I would not go with monolights, but rather with a proven,reliable, professionally-oriented pack-and-head system. I would not pay "new" prices, since there is tons of used studio lighting gear for sale all across America. My suggestion would be to buy a Speedotron system, either a Black Line or a Brown Line one, used, from eBay or Craigslist or the local classified ads.

The lowest-cost Brown Line system would be a D402 LV 400 watt-second power supply with 4 outlets, for around $100-$150 off eBay. Then, for light heads, add as many as you want. MW3U lights which are umbrella-capable heads, are selling for $75 on eBay all the time. Buy two or three to start with, and then add one M11 head for use with a softbox.

Brown Line D802, 800-watt-second power packs sell for very little money on eBay. Be aware that a Speedotron M90 light unit will deliver roughly twice the output of an Alien Bee at the same "nominal" watt-seconds. The AB 400's have the output of roughly 200 watt-seconds from a Speedotron with an M90 light unit. Alien Bee's specifications are rather inflated,compared with those from the Speedotron system.

Due to the difference in poweroutput/labelling, a D402 power pack is like buying 4 AB 400's, only at a cost of $125 for the pack and $75 or so for each light head on the used market. IWO, AB's would be $1000 while the same lighting power in Brown Line would be roughly $425 or so.

Question, the 402 is 400 w/s right? That's 400w/s for the total pack or to each outlet? Like if you plug in 4 heads, are you shooting at 100 w/s each or 400 w/s per head each?

Edit: And the AB400's are something like 240w/s each, IIRC.

 

[Derrel]

Yes, the D402 is 400 total watt-seconds, with power distributed in 2 channels, A & B. In Symmetrical mode, the total power can be distributed through 1,2,3,or 4 lights. In Assymetrical mode, the two outlets in Channel A have the higher power, like 200 and 200 in outlets 1 and 2, or 100 and 100 in outlets 3 and 4 with 2 lights.

With three lights, you get 133 w-s for each head in Symmetrical OR in Assymetrical 200 in a single A-channnl outlet, and 50 and 50 in outlets 3 and 4. Or you an plug lights into 1 and 2 and get 140 and 140 watt-seocnds, and 70 watt-seconds in outlet 3 or 4.

With four lights, Asymmetrical is 120-120 in 1 and 2, and 3 and 4 deliver 30 and 30 watt-seconds.

These figures are at Full power; the 402 can be set to half power, cutting the above figures in half. Due to the efficient nature of the Brown Line flashtubes and reflectors, 100 actual watt-seconds delivers a Guide Number of 105, in feet, at ISO 100 with a Standard Reflector with a 65-degree angle of coverage. Note-that Guide Number is with a wide-field, 65 degree reflector--it's not an inflated number based on a narrow-angle reflector, but on a reflector that can light an entire seamless background from 12-15 feet away,or light an entire half-end of a basketball court from 100 feet away.
if you want higher GN, use a 50 degree, 11-inch reflector.

The Alien Bees 400 is a 160 watt-second flash unit which Buff sells as "400 effective watt-seconds",which is an incredible load of bull**** compared with Speedotron equipment. Buff lists the AB output in Lumen-Seconds to confuse buyers who have no idea that the flashtubes and reflectors on the AB's are not as efficient as on other,professional systems. The "effective watt-seconds" term is kind of a joke to me,and the "effective" 160 watt-seconds equals 400 watt-seconds must have been made with some of the junkiest,oldest, least-efficient studio flash gear that was possible to get, IMO. Norman studio strobes for example, used to have about half the output of Speedotron with like reflectors....Buff's use of 160 watt-seconds being called 400 "effective" watt-seconds is very,very dubious in my opinion. Would the AB400 sell as well if it were labelled as the Speedotron 100 watt-second equivalent, or the AB 100? I don't think so...

D802 power packs often go for very little money because,frankly, with just 1 or 2 heads, they are too powerful for many small portrait uses unless one shoots in a large area, or uses a third light head OR uses a Y-cable to cut the power down. Y cables add an extra outlet,and cut the power by half of what it would normally be. The D1602 power pack, no longer made, offers 1600-800 AND 200 watt-second power levels, which is really nice.

 

[Village Idiot]

Yes, the D402 is 400 total watt-seconds, with power distributed in 2 channels, A &B. In Symmetrical mode, the total power can be distributed through 1,2,3,or 4 lights. In Assymetrical mode, the two outlets in Channel A have the higher power, like 200 and 200 in outlets 1 and 2, or 100 and 100 in outlets 3 and 4 with 2 lights.

With three lights, you get 133 w-s for each head in Symmetrical OR in Assymetrical 200 in a single A-channnl outlet, and 50 and 50 in outlets 3 and 4. Or you an plug lights into 1 and 2 and get 140 and 140 watt-seocnds, a 70 watt-seconds in outlet 3 or 4.

With four lights, Asymmetrical is 120-120 in 1 and 2, and 3 and 4 deliver 30 and 30 watt-seconds.

These figures are at Full power; the 402 can be set to half power, cutting the above figures in half. Due to the efficient nature of the Brown Line flashtubes and reflectors, 100 actual watt-seconds delivers a Guide Number of 100, in feet, at ISO 100 with a Standard Reflector with a 65-degree angle of coverage.

The Alien Bees 400 is a 160 watt-second flash unit which Buff sells as "400 effective watt-seconds",which is an incredible load of bull**** compared with Speedotron equipment. Buff lists the AB output in Lumen-Seconds to confuse buyers who have no idea that the flashtubes and reflectors on the AB's are not as efficient as on other,professional systems. The "effective watt-seconds" term is kind of a joke to me.

I think you convinced me. They have 2400sx's for $600-$800.

 

[Derrel]

I wrote a blog article on the various Brown Line options some months ago. It's still available on my blog. it has a lot of information on various Speedotron systems that I own.

Derrel's Photography Blog: My 99th Blog Post: Speedotron Overview 2008

The D402 and D604 all run pretty well off of my Tronix Explorer 1200 portable sine wave inverter. My wife's nephew who's a beginning commercial shooter turned me on to it; he runs a D802 off of the Tronix Explorer 1200 as well for his location work.

One of the advantages of the older technology Speedotron gear is that it is not digital, and so it runs off of the Vagabond or the Tronix line of sine wave inverters without a hitch.

The Black Line 805 or 1205 power supply (4 outlets, with 1/3 stop dial-down feature) with the fan-free 103 heads would make a good, fast location system for use with a sine wave inverter.

 

[JerryPH]

Seriously, I'm going to sound like an asshole right now but when don't I ever?

If you don't have the money to afford "good" lights, then don't buy lights. You'll end up buying twice.

Elinchrom D-lites and Alien Bees are some of the cheapest I'd buy.

That wasn't assholish at all, I've seen you in much finer form. That was just plain old good advice.

I'z gotz tuh agree!

Seriously, even the whole home studio thing is fun... for 20 minutes, and then gets booooooooooooring. Take your portraiture out of the house, the world is a big and beautiful place!!

Take the money you save on backdrops and muslins and what not, invest that into some speedlights and wireless triggers. You will be a LOT happier.

 

[inTempus]

Seriously, even the whole home studio thing is fun... for 20 minutes, and then gets booooooooooooring. Take your portraiture out of the house, the world is a big and beautiful place!!

That's why I take my Bee's with me on the road!

Check my my Model Mayhem portfolio (in my signature line). All those outdoor shots were taken with my Bee's and a Vagabond.

As for the older systems, sure, you can get a good deal if you know what you're looking for. All that mumbo-jumbo that was just rattled off sailed straight over the OP's head - I can assure you of that.

Again, get the Bee's and be happy like 99.9% of the Bee owners out there are. You'll not only have a killer lighting system, you'll have a warranty that is rivaled by no other company. A light goes bad? Call up Paul Buff and you'll have a new one in the mail that day without even shipping your old one back. Try that with a 10 year old eBay light system.

As for the quality of light, again - the proof is in the pudding. There's a huge number of happy Bee owners out there for a reason.

Where Professional Models Meet Model Photographers - ModelMayhem

Everything at that link was shot using Bee's.

Light weight, reliable, well made, great price.

Here's a 131 page thread filled full of happy Bee owners of various skill levels from amateur to pro/hobbyist with LOTS of pics.

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=632774

 

[Derrel]

All the "mumbo jumbo" was for Village Idiot,and foir anybidy else who wants to buy professional-caliber studio lighting for an excellent price.

I had to laugh at "10 year old eBay system"....and the need to send things back to Paul C. Buff is so common,it's no wonder Bee users worry about warranty issues--the things crap out all the time.

I have a Speedotron D1602 system that I bought new in 1987...two of the three ORIGINAL flashtubes are still working... I have Brown Line 1600,400,and 600 and two Black Line 2400 watt-second power packs that are 20 years old and still working flawlessly. My last accident saw a Brown Line M11 light uhnit fall over from 9 feet high onto a concrete floor,popping the grid out of an 11.5 inch reflector, but not breaking the flashtube or the modeling light,and merely putting a small dent in the edge of the reflector. The same type of impact will dent an AB reflector so badly it's not even funny. I have 400 and 600 watt-second packs made in the mid-1980's, functioning flawlessly,and loads of light heads that are from the mid-1980's to the mid-1990's,all working perfectly,and all bought used. The need for warranty and repairs wioth this brand is exceptionally rare.

A "10 year old" Speedotron system has another 30 to 40 years of life in it. It's not made for hobby use, but for proferssional,daily use. That's whay since 1939, it's been one of the leading professional electronic flash systems made in the USA. Not made in Taiwan, then assembled in the USA under false labelling pretenses.

A D402 power pack, two MW3U light heads, an M11 light head, and an M90 light head is a simply thing to compile from eBay sales. There are loads of those components for sale--the Brown Line pack and liught designs have been made in current specificvations since around 1982,almost unchanged. And the watt-second and model names are "real",not "effective" inflations. It's a great system for use with a Vagabon of TRONIX sine wave inverter. Like Village Idiot hinted at, the allure of real 2,400 watt-seconds with sic head outlets frrom used professional Speedotron packs at $600-$800 each is very tempting for those who want to buy professional lighting that can deliver SIX heads each at a real 400 w-s output, or two heads at 1200 w-s, or three at 800 w-s,etc.

 

[inTempus]

I had to laugh at "10 year old eBay system"....and the need to send things back to Paul C. Buff is so common,it's no wonder Bee users worry about warranty issues--the things crap out all the time.

I'm glad you had a laugh, will a 10 year old system still have a warranty? Oops. Sorry chuckles, it won't.

They crap out all the time... LOL, just more crap talking without an ounce of evidence to back up your claims. I wonder why that is?

A "10 year old" Speedotron system has another 30 to 40 years of life in it. It's not made for hobby use, but for proferssional,daily use. That's whay since 1939, it's been one of the leading professional electronic flash systems made in the USA. Not made in Taiwan, then assembled in the USA under false labelling pretenses.

...and we get to the root of your snobbish remarks. You're just another PCB basher.

Dismissed.

 

[Sw1tchFX]

I had to laugh at "10 year old eBay system"....and the need to send things back to Paul C. Buff is so common,it's no wonder Bee users worry about warranty issues--the things crap out all the time.

I'm glad you had a laugh, will a 10 year old system still have a warranty? Oops. Sorry chuckles, it won't.

They crap out all the time... LOL, just more crap talking without an ounce of evidence to back up your claims. I wonder why that is?

A "10 year old" Speedotron system has another 30 to 40 years of life in it. It's not made for hobby use, but for proferssional,daily use. That's whay since 1939, it's been one of the leading professional electronic flash systems made in the USA. Not made in Taiwan, then assembled in the USA under false labelling pretenses.

...and we get to the root of your snobbish remarks. You're just another PCB basher.

Dismissed.

There is a place for Speedo's, Profoto's, and Broncolors - working studios.

There is another place for Alienbee-types - amateurs who shoot on the weekends.

Speedo's are for studio's on a budget for exactly the reasons Derrel's talking about. Speedo's are serious workhorses that are relatively inexpensive. The look of the output might be the same, but it's the reliability, build, and power that makes them so good. You can't get AB heads that can handle 9600 W/S from two 4800 W/S variable packs.

the most expensive AB's can't recycle 20 times per second at full power like some Profoto's can.

..and i'm surprised nobody has brought this up yet..
AB's don't have the ridiculously short flash duration that Profotos or especially Broncolors have. That's what makes Speedos so cheap. The fastest you can get out of those if you're lucky and there's a leprechaun with you is about 1/800th of a second at minimum power. good luck freezing action, you'd have better luck with speedlights and cranking the ISO!




I've used Normon's, use Speedo's and Profotos regularly, AB's, White Lightning's, Broncolor's, and if I were to look into monolights, i'd get Profoto Compact 600R's. 600W/S, 1/850th duration, built in pocketwizard, and profoto light modifiers.

They're EASY to use, look great, and are pretty darn consistent. If I really need to freeze action, it's usually outdoors, and speedlights work awesome for that since their durations can be crazy like 1/15000th of a second.

Luckily, I can rent, or borrow them if I need to, along with 30 speedo heads and 15 various power packs. including a couple 4800 W/S packs and quad heads.

So Speedlights work for dinking around or ultra porability just fine!


So if you want to buy lights that will last you untill you die, look at Speedo's, Profoto's, or Broncolor's, and like what Derrel said, don't buy new. You can get more for your money buying used.


If you don't care enough, which i really doubt you do, then yeah, you'll be stoked with anything short of compact florescent Smith-Victor's.

 

[Village Idiot]

...and we get to the root of your snobbish remarks. You're just another PCB basher.

Dismissed.

Paul Buff does a lot to deserve his reputation.

Anyways, do some research first. This is on B&H. You can put the kit together used for probably about $1200. That's 2400w/s. Let me repeat that. That's 2400w/s.

Speedotron | 2400 W/S 3 Head Flash Kit | 11292 | B&H Photo Video

 

[inTempus]

Paul Buff does a lot to deserve his reputation.

His reputation with his customers is excellent. His reputation with his non-customers and detractors is irrelevant.

Anyways, do some research first. This is on B&H. You can put the kit together used for probably about $1200. That's 2400w/s. Let me repeat that. That's 2400w/s.

Speedotron | 2400 W/S 3 Head Flash Kit | 11292 | B&H Photo Video

Nice system, but probably just a wee bit overkill for a home studio hobbyist... unless you like shooting at f/22 for some reason. That kind of power is great I suppose, but I've never needed it. I easily over power mid-day sun with my B800's with a large softbox. In my home studio I shoot at 1/2 power or less to stay at f/8 for optimum IQ.

A B400 kit (assuming it is for a home studio) is half that price and more than likely all he'll need.

If money is no object, why stop with a $1,200 system? Go all out and drop $10k and get a killer pro setup.

 

[inTempus]

In this shot the model was facing the sun. It was right smack-dab in her face. I had to shoot it that way to get her on the staircase. The B800 (with large softbox) was set to around 3/4 power and I was still at f/10. You can actually still see a little bit of her shadow cast from the sun to her left.

 

[inTempus]

Derrel,

Can you post a sample of an image you shot with your lights that I couldn't have shot with my Bee's? I went through your online port here Derrel's Photo Galleries at pbase.com and saw nothing exceptional. Most shots are pretty generic with really generic lighting. Do you have a folder somewhere that I've missed that showcases your artistic work that might push the limits of your lighting system or is something I couldn't do with mine?