Best lens/settings for large group photos?

[Mateo1041]

Hi,

I'll be taking a panoramic photo of a large group of people outside my church on Sunday. There'll probably be around 150-200 mid-day. I plan to stop by and run some test shots to prep, but would also love to hear from you all if there is a preferred lens or recommended camera settings.

I have a 17 - 50mm Tamron F2.8 that would probably work best I think. Would I want to shoot closer to 50mm to get a true to life perspective? Or is ultra wide a convenience here due to so many people in the shot?

For settings I had planned on a variety to be sure I get a shot I like. From what I've read though, are larger F stops like F16 or higher what I'd want to keep everything in focus (including the church building behind)? I assume I'd need a good enough shutter speed to not catch any blur due to the higher F stop. Thoughts?

My Sony A55V has a panoramic mode which has worked moderately well for nature shots, but I'm somewhat reluctant to use something like that here. It seems cleaner to just shoot a regular photo and then crop top/bottom as needed. Or alternately I could stitch a few photos together myself, although they also seems less clean with a lot of people in the photos.

I'd appreciate any advice. Thanks!

- Matt

 

[astroNikon]

I think it will depend upon the distance you have to the group.

After all, if you are taking one shot, and not multiple ones stitching them together, you have to get everyone in frame.
Thus the limiting factor is your distance.

If you are too close you have to go Wide Angle and distortion may be involved.
The further away you get, the less distortion and longer focal length.

 

[Designer]

I think you should approach this be looking at all the factors involved individually and separately.

First figure out the physical sizes. How wide and how many ranks deep for the entire group, and how much distance you have in front of the group, and the distance to the background if that is important. The width of the group should tell you if the 50mm will work.

Then calculate the DOF that will be necessary to get everyone in focus plus the background if that is important. By calculating the DOF, you find the ideal aperture. The shutter speed should be short enough to stop motion. These factors combined will give you the ISO.

You wrote "midday", so if the sun is out, you are going to get heavy shadowing in everyone's eye sockets, so fill flash should be used. Let's hope for bright overcast.

 

[Mateo1041]

I think I'll have quite a bit of distance to stand back, so that shouldn't be a problem if I go standard focal length. Width would be maybe 40 feet? Depth would be around 4 rows with a few more behind that up the stairs. The church building would be directly (as in a couple feet) behind, so perhaps that'll help.

Calculating depth of field is what I'm trying to figure out. I've taken group shots before, but haven't tried something fancy where quality was really important to me. They're looking to mimic a panorama taken 100 years ago. I'll see if I can swing by and post a photo of it if that helps envision what I'd be looking for.

Thanks!

 

[tirediron]

Why not shoot it as an actual panorama? I did something very similar recently with an event that I covered that had about 80 participants, so half or less than you're dealing with, but it was done as a four shot pano, and each segment was around 55mm, f8 IIRC. I also did a single-image group shot, 24mm @ f8; and while it's an easier image to manage size-wise, you really don't get to see everyone in detail. A couple of things to be careful of; large group shots are like herding cats, so you're going to need time, this will not happen in 30 seconds and, some people will not want to play; don't be shy. Take charge!

I like to avoid more than three rows, because after that, it gets very difficult to see face. If you go three deep, and have the tallest at the back, the average in the middle, and kids & shorter adults kneeling in the front, you will have the best chance of success. Once you get them in position, walk slowly in front of the whole group and look at EVERY SINGL PERSON. Can you see them? Is there face half-blocked by someone else. Take charge, DO NOT be afraid to move people, tell them to stand up, sit down, TAKE THEIR FRIGGIN' HATS OFF, etc. The mid-day part is also a bit of a concern; if you're lucky it will be an overcast day, and life will be easy, but if it's a clear, sunny day, you're going to have 400 racoon eyes, so be prepared to move and/or move them around so that you can avoid that.

As luck would have it, the only copy I have uploaded at the moment is this one without the exposure corrected, but for reference that's an [approximately] 80 person group shot (or so the organizes told me, I never bothered to count).

 

[julianliu]

Try to get away from 17mm as much as possible. You will see some interesting distorted face if you put somebody at the edge of 17mm frame. I would not go as far as 50mm, which reduces your shallow depth of field. In the middle like 35 mm would be my choice, free of distortion with relative deep depth field. Also the the lens usually perform best in the middle range, gives you the sharpest image. By the way I had a Nikon 17-55mm before.

Since you are shooting so many people, F16 or even smaller aperture maybe required. And you need relatively high shutter speed to make sure no motion blur of people's face. Therefore you need plenty of light. I like early morning light. It's plenty and the quality is good. You may take several picture , not to do panorama, but to combine them together in photoshop because there are always somebody will have closed eyes with so many people.

It's better to stitch photos to a panorama than processing pano with digital camera, which you will find some people will be "tortured" in the photo. The digital camera is not smart.

Good luck.

-Julian

 

[Designer]

The photographers of 100 years ago had dedicated pano lenses, but I don't know how to adapt one to your modern camera. You should try what tirediron did; take a series of shots panning the crowd.

 

[chuasam]

Arrange them shortest in front and shoot from a really tall ladder

 

[dennybeall]

If it was me I'd do like some of the other people and consider that 50mm is about natural eye view so if crop sensor camera go to about 35mm. Position yourself in the center and back far enough that you're not reaching for the end people. Kick up the f-stop to 10 or 11 or more, ISO down to 200 and shoot 3 or 4 pano shots with a tall tripod. (Stand on a box if you need to). That should get the people good and not distort the church building.
Also, have them look up a little to minimize the eye shadows.

 

[Derrel]

Definitely do NOT shoot it wide-angle...that would really mess with apparent sizes, with people closer looking oddly taller than those just a few feet behind. The elevated shooting position does allow you to shoot downward and thus show faces of people who are "in ranks" much better than shooting from the ground. If it is really 150-200 people, you will definitely need a multi-shot panorama unless you have a high-resolution camera and killer lens and can get wayyyyy back. If you do a multi-shot panoramic, have "clean edges" where people are not placed, and keep the lens length longish, so the edges are not all distorted. Make SURE that any shadows cast by people in front fall straight down, or steeply to the sides, so the shadows do not go back onto the faces of people in the second and or third ranks. THis sort of falls under the old genre of "banquet photography".

 

[bratkinson]

The photo link that Tirediron supplied surprised me a bit in that it appears that the rows of people are in an arc. Perhaps that was the result of photo stitching, but I doubt it.

As Tirediron "knows his stuff", I suspect the curved group was to keep everyone within the depth of field (DOF) of perhaps 25-30 feet from the camera. Had everyone lined up in a straight line, the people in the center would be 25 feet away but those at the ends would be 35+ feet away, and out of focus.

After reading only the initial post, my first thought was if the church has 5 or 6 steps, line 'em up on the steps. Of course, the sun would not likely be in a 'good' position making that unusable without perhaps 2-3 flashes. Portable risers/bleachers would be ideal in my mind. That way, each 10' segment could be angled slightly from its neighbor, keeping everybody in the DOF.

Tirediron also mentioned the need to verify that everybody's faces were visible, adjusting their positions slightly if needed. That's something that I keep forgetting to check when I do group shots of 10 or more in 2 rows. Chuasam and Derrel also noted to shoot from a ladder. I'm thinking perhaps 2-3 feet higher than normal, not more. The slight down angle has the benefit of getting the chin and perhaps neck of those in the 2nd and later rows. The downside of using a ladder is that bald folks like me would show more skin up top. Can't win 'em all, I guess.

Perhaps the biggest suggestion I can make is take LOTs of exposures with a group that big. There's ALWAYS somebody you'll catch just as they blink, or one or more people not looking at the camera, or someone with a frown, or .... You may even want to tell them "on the count of 3, everybody blink!", then bang off a couple shots in the next second or two. Although tedious to go through ... say ... 100 frames vs 10 or 20 of the group, you can pick the best one or two where everyone is visible and has their eyes open - hopefully.

 

[tirediron]

The photo link that Tirediron supplied surprised me a bit in that it appears that the rows of people are in an arc. Perhaps that was the result of photo stitching, but I doubt it.

As Tirediron "knows his stuff", I suspect the curved group was to keep everyone within the depth of field (DOF) of perhaps 25-30 feet from the camera. Had everyone lined up in a straight line, the people in the center would be 25 feet away but those at the ends would be 35+ feet away, and out of focus.

Thank you! :er: The arc serves two purposes; as you mentioned, it keeps them closer to the plain of focus, and as well as keeps the individuals on the ends closer to the camera so they don't appear so small. In this image, it probably wasn't all that critical do it, but more force of habit than anything. This image was indeed a single shot and not stitched.

Perhaps the biggest suggestion I can make is take LOTs of exposures with a group that big. There's ALWAYS somebody you'll catch just as they blink, or one or more people not looking at the camera, or someone with a frown, or .... You may even want to tell them "on the count of 3, everybody blink!", then bang off a couple shots in the next second or two. Although tedious to go through ... say ... 100 frames vs 10 or 20 of the group, you can pick the best one or two where everyone is visible and has their eyes open - hopefully.

Very important! I'm not sure I'd go quite 100 frames, but definitely more than one or two, however with a group as large as you are dealing with, it will be virtually imposssible to get everyone with open eyes and smiling face. Tell them to keep as still as possible, and then you can simply do facial transplants (if you want to take it to that level).

 

[Mateo1041]

Why not shoot it as an actual panorama? I did something very similar recently with an event that I covered that had about 80 participants, so half or less than you're dealing with, but it was done as a four shot pano, and each segment was around 55mm, f8 IIRC. I also did a single-image group shot, 24mm @ f8; and while it's an easier image to manage size-wise, you really don't get to see everyone in detail. A couple of things to be careful of; large group shots are like herding cats, so you're going to need time, this will not happen in 30 seconds and, some people will not want to play; don't be shy. Take charge!

I like to avoid more than three rows, because after that, it gets very difficult to see face. If you go three deep, and have the tallest at the back, the average in the middle, and kids & shorter adults kneeling in the front, you will have the best chance of success. Once you get them in position, walk slowly in front of the whole group and look at EVERY SINGL PERSON. Can you see them? Is there face half-blocked by someone else. Take charge, DO NOT be afraid to move people, tell them to stand up, sit down, TAKE THEIR FRIGGIN' HATS OFF, etc. The mid-day part is also a bit of a concern; if you're lucky it will be an overcast day, and life will be easy, but if it's a clear, sunny day, you're going to have 400 racoon eyes, so be prepared to move and/or move them around so that you can avoid that.

As luck would have it, the only copy I have uploaded at the moment is this one without the exposure corrected, but for reference that's an [approximately] 80 person group shot (or so the organizes told me, I never bothered to count).

Thanks for the tip! So let's say I do that. Would I basically just be taking multiple photos a few seconds apart and then stitching them together in post-processing? Any issues with people moving between shots? Or did you mean something else? Just trying to figure out how it'd work best.

 

[Mateo1041]

Try to get away from 17mm as much as possible. You will see some interesting distorted face if you put somebody at the edge of 17mm frame. I would not go as far as 50mm, which reduces your shallow depth of field. In the middle like 35 mm would be my choice, free of distortion with relative deep depth field. Also the the lens usually perform best in the middle range, gives you the sharpest image. By the way I had a Nikon 17-55mm before.

Since you are shooting so many people, F16 or even smaller aperture maybe required. And you need relatively high shutter speed to make sure no motion blur of people's face. Therefore you need plenty of light. I like early morning light. It's plenty and the quality is good. You may take several picture , not to do panorama, but to combine them together in photoshop because there are always somebody will have closed eyes with so many people.

It's better to stitch photos to a panorama than processing pano with digital camera, which you will find some people will be "tortured" in the photo. The digital camera is not smart.

Good luck.

-Julian

Thanks! How high ISO would you go? Or would you just have shutter speed be the quickest possible?

 

[tirediron]

...Thanks for the tip! So let's say I do that. Would I basically just be taking multiple photos a few seconds apart and then stitching them together in post-processing? Any issues with people moving between shots? Or did you mean something else? Just trying to figure out how it'd work best.

Essentially yes; if you search the term 'panorama' on here, you'll find a number of excellent 'How to' tutorials; it's not difficult, but best results are acheived with a little preparation. As for moving, explain to everyone that this is going to take five minutes or so (in reality, it should take less, but just in case...) and they must remain still for that time. Of course they won't, but hopefully movement will be minimized and if you shoot a 3-4 image pano, and do it three times, you should be able to pull a pretty good image together. Photoshop's 'Photomerge' function works VERY well for this.