Can we talk lighting? ( beat a dead horse)

[Village Idiot]

I fear for this thread as VI and Derrel are both posting, and they don't make good bedfellows.

AHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! man on man!

:lmao:

You would like that, wouldn't you? layball:

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

It'd be a sight, wouldn't it? :lmao:

 

[KmH]

I'd venture that using TTL speedlights is more expensive than monoblock lights of the kind Derrel recommended.

An issue though is what to use as a power source when a wall socket isn't handy.

Often multiple speedlights are needed to do the job a single monoblock can do.

So it boils down to how much portability, and $$$'s, a newbie to lighting wants/has.

So, if we take TTL out of the equation.

For me, the LumoPro LP-160 ($160) isn't a good value for what you get. Instead I recommend the Vivitar 285HV ($90). You can get 3 - 285HV's for the cost of 2 - LP-160's and have the money left to buy eBay radio triggers: iShoot PT-04C Radio Wireless Remote Flash Trigger Set w/3 Receivers

 

[dMau1986]

If you're just starting out and looking to experiment for cheap (I was/am in the same boat), I recommend inexpensive speedlights. I recently purchased and am very happy with:
-2x YN-460 II's ($50 each)
-RF-602 wireless transmitter w/ 2x recievers ($30)
-Cowboy Studio flash stand + umbrella + clamp ($30)
= ~$160 (190 if you want two light stands/umbrellas)

This is very inexpensive stuff but for the money is an outstanding value, and a good segue into higher-end lighting if you are so inclined. Do some research on Flickr there is a good amount of information about "strobist"-style lighting.

 

[Derrel]

I have to second KmH's contention that " LumoPro LP-160 ($160) isn't a good value for what you get". I agree, totally...it's way overpriced for what it is,and I question why it is priced so high when the Vivitar 285HV is priced so low, and has a nearly 30-year track record.

Battery-powered speedlights are fine for Strobist-type stuff, but they lack the control that modeling lights give. They lack the light modifiers as well. Speedlights can be modified and DIY'd somewhat, but they lack the versatility of monolights or pack and head flash systems, and they frankly, lack POWER, as well as the ability to be used continuously for very long before they overheat or melt down. But the real issue is the way modeling lights give you a visual reference WHILE you are moving the lights around. You can literally SEE where the catchlights are, and where the shadows fall, and you can literally SEE the effect of each light. To the beginner, that is extremely helpful. It also adds light for faster,easier focusing, and for better composition through the camera. For the beginner who wants to learn studio lighting, modeling lights are a huge advantage. I often hear the AC power excuse bandied about...yeah...well, if you need AC power it is around most places, and where it is not, there are things called batteries and sine wave inverters and generators.

So, it really comes down to WHY you need auxillary lighting, and HOW you plan to use it, and on what types of setups. If you need to light broad areas with rather milquetoast lighting, speedlights and umbrellas are fine,lightweight, and can go anywhere. If you need to light products, or shoot group portraiture, working with speedlights is a distinct disadvantage due to the lack of modifiers, and the fact that you're using basically a tool outside its optimum range. So, each user needs to figure out exactly what the most essential mixture of features are: is is modeling light for previewing and focusing? Raw power? Modifiers like scrims and barn doors and snoots and grids and parabolic reflectors and beauty dishes that actually work? Professional appearance vs DIY look? Long-session, fan-cooled heads versus speedlights that thermally shut down after 2 minutes of high-speed shooting? Weight versus portability? Occasional use versus daily use over long periods? Rock-solid,years' long reliability versus "good customer service when it craps out, like you know it will"...and so on...

There....the horse is dead,dead,dead!

 

[Patrice]

Flash with modeling light built in. Adorama Flashpoint monolights for example. Lower-powered, 300 watt-seconds or less, like 150 watt-seconds, or 200 watt-seconds. A light stand,and a reflective umbrella or a small to medium-sized softbox.

:thumbup:


Derrel is absolutely right. Studio strobes with modeling lights is a much easier way to learn how to light people and objects. True that strobist solutions do work and can be rather inexpensive (one item at a time - but it adds up pretty quick!) but the control and flexibility of strobes is pretty impressive. What Derrel said in 2006 is still true today. Portable flash is a steep learning curve.

I made the mistake of starting out with speedlights which certainly led to a lot of hair pulling frustation put got there in the end. And not that cheap once you start chasing ever more lumens. Now I use strobes when I can, wish I'd done that at first, learn the techniques well and then adapt to speedlights when portability and weight are paramount.

 

[Village Idiot]

I have to second KmH's contention that " LumoPro LP-160 ($160) isn't a good value for what you get". I agree, totally...it's way overpriced for what it is,and I question why it is priced so high when the Vivitar 285HV is priced so low, and has a nearly 30-year track record.

Battery-powered speedlights are fine for Strobist-type stuff, but they lack the control that modeling lights give. They lack the light modifiers as well. Speedlights can be modified and DIY'd somewhat, but they lack the versatility of monolights or pack and head flash systems, and they frankly, lack POWER, as well as the ability to be used continuously for very long before they overheat or melt down. But the real issue is the way modeling lights give you a visual reference WHILE you are moving the lights around. You can literally SEE where the catchlights are, and where the shadows fall, and you can literally SEE the effect of each light. To the beginner, that is extremely helpful. It also adds light for faster,easier focusing, and for better composition through the camera. For the beginner who wants to learn studio lighting, modeling lights are a huge advantage. I often hear the AC power excuse bandied about...yeah...well, if you need AC power it is around most places, and where it is not, there are things called batteries and sine wave inverters and generators.

So, it really comes down to WHY you need auxillary lighting, and HOW you plan to use it, and on what types of setups. If you need to light broad areas with rather milquetoast lighting, speedlights and umbrellas are fine,lightweight, and can go anywhere. If you need to light products, or shoot group portraiture, working with speedlights is a distinct disadvantage due to the lack of modifiers, and the fact that you're using basically a tool outside its optimum range. So, each user needs to figure out exactly what the most essential mixture of features are: is is modeling light for previewing and focusing? Raw power? Modifiers like scrims and barn doors and snoots and grids and parabolic reflectors and beauty dishes that actually work? Professional appearance vs DIY look? Long-session, fan-cooled heads versus speedlights that thermally shut down after 2 minutes of high-speed shooting? Weight versus portability? Occasional use versus daily use over long periods? Rock-solid,years' long reliability versus "good customer service when it craps out, like you know it will"...and so on...

There....the horse is dead,dead,dead!

Speedlights are indeed very versatile and it can be said that large studio lights aren't as versatile. And there are a ton of modifiers out for speedlights Has anyone seriously went and googled what type of non-DIY modifiers there are for speedlights?

grids
barn doors
beuaty dishes
soft boxes
snoots
ring lights
umbrellas

Just a few of the available modifiers you can find for speed lights.

And I've personally never had a problem of any of my Canon or 3rd party flashes over heating and shutting down. I'm sure it may happen, but you don't always need to shoot at full power.

There's a time and a place for every type of light and unless he's always going to be next to an outlet, he's not going to have all the advantages of AC powered lighting.

Edit: And seriously here, it's not about whether or not he should absolutely buy one over the other, it's about making the OP aware of the pros and cons of each system so he can decide what will work best for him.

What's your definition of a "strobist" type shot? Because to me, speedlights and monos/p&h systems can be interchanged with for the same type of look up to the point where speedlights aren't powerful enough. I've seen beautry dish photos where you can't tell whether it's been done with a speedlight, a speedotron head, or an Alien Bee because the same dish can be used with every single one of those lights.

And yes, monolights will give a person an advantage in learning, but again, if they're shooting AC powered strobes on a battery, then they're not going to have the capability to really use a modeling light. And it seems that most beginners like speedlights because they're not necessarily tethered to a wall outlet, they can go outside and shoot as long as they're not attempting to overpower the sun.

I finally settled on a lighting kit myself and have 5 heads and a small pack. I'm buying a battery next week and a 1200w/s pack or two to give me more flexibility. I need enough light to overpower the sun and to shoot larger objects and the speedlights and the B800's were just not cutting it for me.

 

[syphlix]

really depends on your budget...

you can get an old nikon sb speedlight for 60-80 bucks on ebay, a shootthrough/reflective combo umbrella for 25, lightstand for $30 used, and a set of cheap radio (cactus v4) triggers for 60 bucks... < $200 for a 1 light setup that has plenty of power for anything indoors, and enough for outdoors as long as you're not shooting in midday...

speedlites are portable as hell too... u can take them anywhere really easily...

no need to go w/ same brand TTl flashes if you're learning... better to learn in manual anyways...

and i'd argue against the need for modeling lights... i mean **** we're shooting digital here just snap a frame and see what it looks like... will help you to learn to visualize anyways...

and like the prior posters said... lotta DIY stuff you can do... which is really fun and cheap... check out the DIY beauty dish i made here...

DIY Beauty Dish Redux &#8211; Blog Title -Gregory Tran

dunno... if at some point u decide you're a lighting star and need better stuff (profoto ) then just sell the beginner stuff on ebay to another budding strobist and move up...

 

[8ball]

once again i go back to what i first posted MAN OH MAN!!!!!!!!!!!! hahahaha alot of good information here going ot have t re read this a few time

 

[supraman215]

Some differences with vivitar and lp 160

lp has:
- optical slave, plus optical slave that will ignore preflash. This is pretty cool as I can fire the flash with my P&S lol. You can add optical slave to any hot shoe mount flash but it's obviously another piece you have to buy.
- down to 1/64 power option (compared to 1/16 on the vivitar)
- 145 gn @50mm (compared to 120 on the vivitar)
- swivel head
- standard 1/8" port for sync also has PC port, same as vivitar
- EDIT: not sure what the vivitar has as the BH site wasn't real specific but the LP has a metal foot.

That's what I could gather from the bh website about the vivitar. I know vivitar no longer makes that flash and apparently less quality issues have resulted. So that's good.

You have to decide for yourself if all those added features are worth the extra $70-80 to you.

 

[o hey tyler]

You can edit your first post so that it doesn't look like you're giving some impromptu man-on-man porn commentary, you know...

 

[Derrel]

I finally settled on a lighting kit myself and have 5 heads and a small pack. I'm buying a battery next week and a 1200w/s pack or two to give me more flexibility. I need enough light to overpower the sun and to shoot larger objects and the speedlights and the B800's were just not cutting it for me.

So, do you mean you actually bought a pack and head system, after repeatedly,vociferously,viciously bashing ME for suggesting a pack and head system?

I thought I was an "idiot" (among other things) for suggesting pack and heads when you were convinced you needed monolights....

Or am I missing something here?

 

[8ball]

BAHAHAHAHAHAH! i didnt even realize it said man on man hahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111

 

[Village Idiot]

I finally settled on a lighting kit myself and have 5 heads and a small pack. I'm buying a battery next week and a 1200w/s pack or two to give me more flexibility. I need enough light to overpower the sun and to shoot larger objects and the speedlights and the B800's were just not cutting it for me.

So, do you mean you actually bought a pack and head system, after repeatedly,vociferously,viciously bashing ME for suggesting a pack and head system?

I thought I was an "idiot" (among other things) for suggesting pack and heads when you were convinced you needed monolights....

Or am I missing something here?

I was against having one pack for multiple heads. I found a good deal on something so I'm going to have multiple packs and batteries and be able to run 2 heads off of each pack if I need it. I'm not going to be limited like having 3-4 lights run off one pack.

And I wasn't bashing you for recommending a pack and head system, I was telling you to stay out of my threads because you act the way you do.

 

[supraman215]

8ball: did you make a decision?