Commercial work for resort....pricing and contract

[The_Traveler]

Sometimes being harsh is necessary. I actually consulted with someone who knows this sales manager quite well before my response. He actually is respecting me now and treating this situation more professionally. Clearly standards are different depending on ability and I strongly believe I priced my work accordingly. The contract I presented also gave him the option not to purchase at all if he wasn't satisfied but insisted if he liked my work that he pay a certain amount. I am not worried about my position, as I am a top performer and very well liked by my immediate management team. I have no disciplinary problems in my file and have been employed with my company for 2.5 years. Not to mention I'm pregnant. I do believe the language was strong but that was the point. Tip toeing around because they are my employer wouldn't have been appropriate in my opinion. Anyhow it was actually received VERY well and the deal is not off the table, he actually brought my contract up with other managers in a positive manner and suggested they still use me.

Good for you.
I hope it works out well.

Lew

 

[Steve5D]

"Conflict of interest".

Everything I'm reading is read with those three words echoing in the back ground "Conflict of interest".

The contract you presented him, while "insisting" that he pay for your work also means that you could be spinning your wheels to do this and gain nothing.

You should also be alert to them trying to take the position that, since you did the work (or some of it) during your regular work hours, that it constitutes a "work for hire" and, as such, you have to relinquish those photos taken during your regular work hours. I'm going to go out on a limb and float the idea that Hilton probably has the legal resources to pursue such a demand far more than you'll have legal resources to fight it.

I'm mildly confused by this whole thing, really. You asked for advice, and almost everyone said you should pass on it, for a myriad of reasons. Some of these folks may have been just hobbiests, but there are others who are working pros and have learned to spot a minefield when they see one. For whatever reason, you've chosen to ignore the very advice you asked for.

I think this could end badly for you. It may not, but I think it will, and I still believe you should've simply declined...

 

[KmH]

^^^ +1. :thumbup:

No doubt, you are there and aware of nuances we can't fathom.
It seems apparent you gathered the needed info and make a decision, while also being willing to accept the responsibility for the outcome even if the outcome was not favorable to you.

Doing business of any kind entails taking some calculated risks.

 

[whitnic]

I appreciate and respect everyones opinions and advice, doesn't mean I have to do exactly what they are recommending. I took the fact that people were telling me I should back down and opt out as clearly the companies contract was not fair or accurate for the industry. Which is really what I wanted to confirm as that is what I suspected. I also do not intend to take most of the photographs while on the clock, even if I am scheduled for work it would be during my break, but thats besides the point. What is the point is that I chose to counter, knowing full well that they most likely won't accept the offer anyways which is fine with me. If I take the photographs and they don't purchase, that is also abosutely fine with me, as I ENJOY TAKING PHOTOGRAPHs. So while I do appreciate everyones advice and opinions and did take everything into consideration prior to making a decision, I obveiously can't convince you it was the right decision. I posted my response for anyone who may be curious about the action I took, not to continue to defend and argue why I made the decision. Thank you all for helping me and for the advice.

 

[The_Traveler]

Again, good for you.

 

[manaheim]

I appreciate and respect everyones opinions and advice, doesn't mean I have to do exactly what they are recommending. I took the fact that people were telling me I should back down and opt out as clearly the companies contract was not fair or accurate for the industry. Which is really what I wanted to confirm as that is what I suspected. I also do not intend to take most of the photographs while on the clock, even if I am scheduled for work it would be during my break, but thats besides the point. What is the point is that I chose to counter, knowing full well that they most likely won't accept the offer anyways which is fine with me. If I take the photographs and they don't purchase, that is also abosutely fine with me, as I ENJOY TAKING PHOTOGRAPHs. So while I do appreciate everyones advice and opinions and did take everything into consideration prior to making a decision, I obveiously can't convince you it was the right decision. I posted my response for anyone who may be curious about the action I took, not to continue to defend and argue why I made the decision. Thank you all for helping me and for the advice.

I think you're missing something... I don't think people are so much indignant that you ignored the advice as they are shocked over the direction you went. You were presented with a> run and b> go for it and you chose z> thermo nuclear war.

Let me put this another way... If I were your employer and you"countered" in that manner, I would be putting together a justifications to fire you.

That was NOT a good move. Period.

 

[The_Traveler]

I appreciate and respect everyones opinions and advice, doesn't mean I have to do exactly what they are recommending. I took the fact that people were telling me I should back down and opt out as clearly the companies contract was not fair or accurate for the industry. Which is really what I wanted to confirm as that is what I suspected. I also do not intend to take most of the photographs while on the clock, even if I am scheduled for work it would be during my break, but thats besides the point. What is the point is that I chose to counter, knowing full well that they most likely won't accept the offer anyways which is fine with me. If I take the photographs and they don't purchase, that is also abosutely fine with me, as I ENJOY TAKING PHOTOGRAPHs. So while I do appreciate everyones advice and opinions and did take everything into consideration prior to making a decision, I obveiously can't convince you it was the right decision. I posted my response for anyone who may be curious about the action I took, not to continue to defend and argue why I made the decision. Thank you all for helping me and for the advice.

I think you're missing something... I don't think people are so much indignant that you ignored the advice as they are shocked over the direction you went. You were presented with a> run and b> go for it and you chose z> thermo nuclear war.

Let me put this another way... If I were your employer and you"countered" in that manner, I would be putting together a justifications to fire you.

That was NOT a good move. Period.

Tell me what the upside is in telling someone that what they've done is wrong in the terms you've used.

She's an adult. She knows her situation and her employers.
She's done what she thinks is best.

I think you should respect her judgement for that and let it be rather than acting like you are the 'authority.'

If I were her boss, I'd look at her with new respect.
In my time as a boss, I wanted strong intelligent people as employees who could perform and who weren't afraid to tell me when they thought I was wrong.

 

[Steve5D]

...I obveiously can't convince you it was the right decision.

Likewise, we can never convince you that it was the wrong one.

"Conflict of interest".

It doesn't matter who countered who with what. Even they're saying it's a conflict of interest. If it's a conflict of interest for them, I have some sad news for you: It's also a conflict of interest for you.

You're willing to put ethics aside for a few bucks.

That will not, in the long run, serve you well...

 

[whitnic]

Steve I will say this one move time. I don't care if they accept my counter or not, it was not about money, so I am not putting "ethics aside for a few bucks." To those who said they would fire me, that is ridiculous, considering I didn't say anything that would warrant that given that this was no longer being discussed on company time. It was a conversation between a company and a freelance photographer via the photographers email. I would never want or for that matter chose to work for a company that was willing to fire someone over this. To the person who said they would respect me thank you, because that was my whole point in making the decision. People do not promote pushovers. Sales managers respect people who don't bull**** when it comes to money. Now that being said, honestly I've grown tired of this discussion, so I won't be returning. I am sorry, I didn't follow everyone's advice, but I am very happy I handled it the way I did regardless of risk. Thank you all again and have a nice day.

 

[Steve5D]

Steve I will say this one move time. I don't care if they accept my counter or not, it was not about money, so I am not putting "ethics aside for a few bucks."

I didn't say you were. I said that you're willing to, and you've proven me right by not simply walking away.

This isn't a hobby for me. This is what I do all day, every day. If a conflict of interest arises, which it has in your case, if you don't walk away you're perpetuating it. Period. You can't divorce yourself from that, because you acknowledged the conflict of interest in writing. Whether they accept your offer or not is of no consequence. What matters is that if they make you an offer you like, despite it being a conflict of interest, you'll take it.

And you'll flush your ethics and, in short order, your reputation as a photographer down the toilet...

To those who said they would fire me, that is ridiculous, considering I didn't say anything that would warrant that given that this was no longer being discussed on company time. It was a conversation between a company and a freelance photographer via the photographers email.

You're remarkably naïve. The contents of the e-mail, whether it's a work e-mail or a personal e-mail, are what matters. In at least one piece of correspondence, you acknowledged the conflict of interest. You can't walk away from that...

Sales managers respect people who don't bull**** when it comes to money.

Unless you're making a play for the industry standard for the type of shooting you'll be doing, you are "bull****ing" when it comes to money. Period. If you accept what they offer you, as opposed to them accepting your terms, you are a pushover. "Respect" is something which you will not earn as a result of this...

Now that being said, honestly I've grown tired of this discussion, so I won't be returning. I am sorry, I didn't follow everyone's advice, but I am very happy I handled it the way I did regardless of risk. Thank you all again and have a nice day.

I always laugh at those who, in the face of advice they didn't expect, run away with their tails between their legs.

I'd strongly suggest you stick to the concierge desk, and leave the photography to professionals. I'm not saying that on the basis of your talent; I don't know what that level is. I'm saying that on the basis of the fact that you're apparently devoid of any measurable business acumen.

 

[Steve5D]

If I were her boss, I'd look at her with new respect.

It's doubtful that a Manager in a multi-billion dollar corporation will do the same...

 

[The_Traveler]

If I were her boss, I'd look at her with new respect.

It's doubtful that a Manager in a multi-billion dollar corporation will do the same...

No, it's not doubtful, you are doubtful.

I was a reasonably high level manager in a multi-billion dollar corporation (US Army) with a lot more power over my subordinates than her manager does Then Operations VP of a sizable consulting company, then ED of an technical group that had members like Sprint and GE medical Systems and I welcomed that kind of strength in subordinates.
The willingness to talk truth to power is a rare good quality.

I am stunned that you guys are so wedded to your own idea - even not knowing the situation - that you keep on with this.
But you don't know her situation and she does.
Why not just respect her decision and let her see how it works?
It's sunk cost, and you gain nothing in this attempt to aggrandize your own opinion and make her feel bad.

So you persist in trying to show her she's wrong - and what might be a good strong member here might not be back.

 

[manaheim]

I appreciate and respect everyones opinions and advice, doesn't mean I have to do exactly what they are recommending. I took the fact that people were telling me I should back down and opt out as clearly the companies contract was not fair or accurate for the industry. Which is really what I wanted to confirm as that is what I suspected. I also do not intend to take most of the photographs while on the clock, even if I am scheduled for work it would be during my break, but thats besides the point. What is the point is that I chose to counter, knowing full well that they most likely won't accept the offer anyways which is fine with me. If I take the photographs and they don't purchase, that is also abosutely fine with me, as I ENJOY TAKING PHOTOGRAPHs. So while I do appreciate everyones advice and opinions and did take everything into consideration prior to making a decision, I obveiously can't convince you it was the right decision. I posted my response for anyone who may be curious about the action I took, not to continue to defend and argue why I made the decision. Thank you all for helping me and for the advice.

I think you're missing something... I don't think people are so much indignant that you ignored the advice as they are shocked over the direction you went. You were presented with a> run and b> go for it and you chose z> thermo nuclear war.

Let me put this another way... If I were your employer and you"countered" in that manner, I would be putting together a justifications to fire you.

That was NOT a good move. Period.

Tell me what the upside is in telling someone that what they've done is wrong in the terms you've used.

She's an adult. She knows her situation and her employers.
She's done what she thinks is best.

I think you should respect her judgement for that and let it be rather than acting like you are the 'authority.'

If I were her boss, I'd look at her with new respect.
In my time as a boss, I wanted strong intelligent people as employees who could perform and who weren't afraid to tell me when they thought I was wrong.

I said what I said with the full intent of trying to help.

I have a lot of experience in corporate America and specifically in management. While I don't know the hotel industry all THAT well, I know it a little, and I'm pretty sure most of the same rules apply.

If someone had told me what I told her, I would hope I would at least go "Hm... maybe I should do a little damage control"... or at least consider it.

My point here was only to take a different approach to trying to get the point across, and I think it was reasonable to do so.

That said, the OP has now declared she's done and this thread is devolving, so I'm going to lock it and we can all go on with our lives.