Criticism..is it good, or bad to argue with taste?

[mjhoward]

Once its on the internet, I can view it in the US. So, at least for 300 million people, the First Amendment does apply.

Semantics. Right, so 300 million people may know what you are referring to, but I highly doubt it. Quick..... What is the capital of New York?

There are 196 countries in the world. This includes the newest country South Sudan. The Vatican and Kosovo are also included although they are independent and not a member of the U.N. Should all of them be aware of what the First Amendment entitles a citizen of the US? Should they be expected to know our Constitution and the First Amendment is actually a part of the Bill of Rights? Having a broader perspective of the world, since this is an international website, may give you an opportunity to be seen less closed minded than you have just shown yourself to be. Peace, out.

I'm not closed minded at all. The OP asked what gives one person the right... I gave just one example of what gives me, and 300 Million other people the right. The OP asked because he/she clearly didn't know, as you've pointed out. Now he/she does know, at least for US citizens, what gives one the right. I don't see the problem with answering a simple question with a valid answer. It also doesn't matter if ANY of those 300 Million people know what I'm referring to, they still have the same right regardless.

 

[2WheelPhoto]

Even in class our professor is brutal on critiques. We tape our 8 x10's to the wall and he fires away.

Does matter much to me my old arse is happy in my tech career and photography is a hobby. I appreciate every single tip he blasts me with.

However, the little 10-bomb timid gals act devasted.

 

[clanthar]

Which then begs the question, why bother posting on a photography forum if artistic value has no merit, and it's only egotistical pride that drives those who want to perfectionise the quality of images uploaded onto ANY internet photography boards. When did egotism replace the merit of actually going out there into the world to take images that would be appreciative.

who defines "artistic value"???? Some people consider "Rap" music to be art.. I hardly consider it to even be music, since it seldom meets most of the defined rules for "music".

Don't confuse what something is with whether or not you like it. You can dislike a work of art -- it's still a work of art. Art can be bad -- then it's bad art, but it's still art.

If a crappy artist defines what they produce as "art".. does that really make it art?

Yes.

When a six year old draws a picture with their crayons, and states that it is "art", does that make it so?

If the six year old understands what art is then, yes.

Joe

 

[kundalini]

When a six year old draws a picture with their crayons, and states that it is "art", does that make it so?

If the six year old understands what art is then, yes.

Joe

Even as young as 4 years old........


4-Year-Old Girl Takes NYC Art World By Storm | NBC New York

 

[c.cloudwalker]

Some people think that a painting of Elvis on black velvet is high-art. I will argue that kind of taste...


I CC from the point of view of both a working artist (photo, painting and more) and a working commercial photog with many years of experience (and sales) in both. However, I am intelligent enough to recognize that what I say is, to a certain degree, only valid for myself, ie it is my own personal taste.

You are however on a forum which, like most, has a lot of people who have no idea what they are doing but who have no problem voicing their opinions with the result that a painting of Elvis on black velvet is high-art. I see plenty of crap photo getting amazing positive responses while 90% of what I think is truly good barely gets a nod...

But you have to realize that as an artist (commercial or otherwise) you are always being judged by people whose taste is not the same as yours. Live with it or get out of the kitchen.


A long, long time ago, a friend of mine went to a concert and the opening band was an unknown called Police. This friend wrote and told me that Police was not a band we needed to remember as they would never amount to anything. History proved him wrong although I, based on MY taste, would have totally agreed with him. Actually, I still thing they and Sting suck big time :lmao:

 

[abraxas]

Which then begs the question, why bother posting on a photography forum if artistic value has no merit, and it's only egotistical pride that drives those who want to perfectionise the quality of images uploaded onto ANY internet photography boards. When did egotism replace the merit of actually going out there into the world to take images that would be appreciative.

Internet forums have no merit. Develop your own tastes and style and venture out into the real world.

 

[The_Traveler]

Whatever the stated reason that persons, usually beginners, post here, it isn't our responsibility to make a value judgement whether their picture is good or bad in the absolute. I think that if we approach any response with the attitude that this pictures works for me or doesn't work for me and this is why and these are the technical issues that the OP might want to consider then we get away from the issue of making a value judgement about 'good' or 'bad'.

It is the viewers who make a value judgement, without being able to state why he or she thinks that way, who provide the least benefit to the poster.

 

[guardianelectronics]

Photography, is you do it right, is an art. Criticism is good is you use it to improve your work and is bad is you can not assimilate it.

 

[bennielou]

What a cool discussion, and another reason I love this place. I love what Overread had to say. That was pretty cool. And nice.

Here is my personal opinion on the matter:

You post it, you take the punches. You don't have to like taking the punches, and you might argue that the punches were unfair, or harsh, but it is what it is.

You also have to realize that there are people on the net, horribly stupid people, who are just mean for no other reason but being mean. I'm talking about the ladies/gents who come on here and troll the place only to say everything sucks. The funny part is they probably don't even own a camera, or if they do, they are really awful with it. Most times they are kids, or really unhappy adults. You have to learn how to figure out who has a valid point, and who is just being mean. You will know this instinctively if you really give it some thought. Not every bad crit is a mean crit. It might seem harsh sometimes. But think about it. Is there some truth in it? Or is it just mean?

As for the subject of art, and this is not going to be a wildly popular view on the matter:
EVERYTHING A PERSON CREATES IS ART. EVERY SINGLE THING. That could be a cookie that they just baked, or tying their shoes a certain way. Art becomes ART when others value it. If they value it enough to pay money for it, even better. Art isn't art just because you made something. We ALL make something all day long, every single day. That is what people do. What makes art truly ART is when other people tell you it's ART.

 

[Mocha13]

But in terms of the hobbyist seeking subjective images for their own aesthetic pleasures what gives one person the subjective rights to say the picture is rubbish is good?

The First Amendment

Someone reeks of Tea Bagger.

The First Amendment doesn't give you the right to deem something good or bad in terms of artistic merit.

It gives you the right to offer your subjective opinion. It also gives others the right to tell you you're being a jerk. You still can't yell "Bomb!" on an plane, sorry. ;P

The criticisms of the OP were a bit harsh... I just checked out his post. The forum he posted in didn't say it was a C&C forum and he didn't ask for opinions. However, yes, it's the internet, so individuals who want to post their work and are sensitive to critique shouldn't post in the first place, because you're opening yourself up to everything.

But as a photography forum, I don't think it's helpful to say "tough ****, you posted them, deal with it." This should be an environment that encourages people to grow. It's not helpful to just outright trash a picture. A watermark isn't arrogant - I've seen people steal the crappiest of Naruto anime sketches off deviantART. If you find it distracting, then offer some other suggestions and explain why it's a better option. A good critique compliments something, then criticizes... and if you can offer some tips to help the person prevent that issue in the future, then even better.

My 2 cents.

 

[manaheim]

 

[bennielou]

But in terms of the hobbyist seeking subjective images for their own aesthetic pleasures what gives one person the subjective rights to say the picture is rubbish is good?

The First Amendment

Someone reeks of Tea Bagger.

The First Amendment doesn't give you the right to deem something good or bad in terms of artistic merit.

It gives you the right to offer your subjective opinion. It also gives others the right to tell you you're being a jerk. You still can't yell "Bomb!" on an plane, sorry. ;P

The criticisms of the OP were a bit harsh... I just checked out his post. The forum he posted in didn't say it was a C&C forum and he didn't ask for opinions. However, yes, it's the internet, so individuals who want to post their work and are sensitive to critique shouldn't post in the first place, because you're opening yourself up to everything.

But as a photography forum, I don't think it's helpful to say "tough ****, you posted them, deal with it." This should be an environment that encourages people to grow. It's not helpful to just outright trash a picture. A watermark isn't arrogant - I've seen people steal the crappiest of Naruto anime sketches off deviantART. If you find it distracting, then offer some other suggestions and explain why it's a better option. A good critique compliments something, then criticizes... and if you can offer some tips to help the person prevent that issue in the future, then even better.

My 2 cents.

Oh good god...the tea party against the dems again. Will it ever end? WHEN DID PEOPLE LOSE THE ABILITY TO DEBATE?

 

[fossilboy]

The moment you enter something on the internet you are looking at a multitude of opinions led by different upbrinings, interests and personal tastes. No matter how we view a picture, personal is always intertwined. The best thing you can do is to take it as constructive criticism and strive to improve all the time.

 

[Forkie]

When I critique or give advice, I only ever suggest what I may have done had I taken the photo. That way, the OP can take it or leave it.

Also, if I'm critiquing I try not to say whether I actually like the photo or not, just how they could've improved what they did.

Whether I like it or not is not related to whether the photo was well taken. I don't particularly like photos of flowers, that's not to say that a photo of a daisy is not good. I love photos of wildlife, but it doesn't mean I like any photo just because it has wildlife in it. In these situations, critique or advice must me given without prejudice or bias to your own tastes and purely on the merit or non-merit of the photo itself.

 

[The_Traveler]

IMO, to go at a picture from the point of view of what the critic would have done is just substituting your own artistic judgement and taste for the OP's.

I try to deal with the picture as posted, respecting the OP as an artist, and say why it works or doesn't work for me. Technical issues of taking or PPing the picture may come into it but as one of possible methods to improve what the OP has done to make the picture better in my eyes.