development help

[Jhorneva]

"Yes, I purposely push because one of my goals is for high contrast and for sharpness, and I'm fine with extra grain. However, I notice that even those prints come out muddy and under an enlarger even at 30-60 seconds ill wet print and they will come out stilly all gray, with no true blacks. I'd say all my prints stay at Zone V and nothing goes any darker than that, which I cant figure out is the problem."

I am kinda of wondering what grade of paper or what variable contrast filter are you using. The prints are very low in contrast. Going to a higher grade of paper, say at least 3 would help, or if you are using a VC filter try something about 3 or 3.5, or even 4.

 

[lane]

yes, the negative, so should I just develop for less time? I plan to use D-76 from now on. I'm kinda confused as to how overdevelopment would achieve this if developing more is suppose to bring out contrast.

More development = less contrast. The longer the development the more the silver is activated.

Pushing film (ie shooting 400 as 1600) will give you more contrast but require more development as the film has been exposed to less light.

um, this is the first time I've ever read someone tell me overdelopment decreases contrast....err.

I know the second part, thats been addressed.

"Yes, I purposely push because one of my goals is for high contrast and for sharpness, and I'm fine with extra grain. However, I notice that even those prints come out muddy and under an enlarger even at 30-60 seconds ill wet print and they will come out stilly all gray, with no true blacks. I'd say all my prints stay at Zone V and nothing goes any darker than that, which I cant figure out is the problem."

I am kinda of wondering what grade of paper or what variable contrast filter are you using. The prints are very low in contrast. Going to a higher grade of paper, say at least 3 would help, or if you are using a VC filter try something about 3 or 3.5, or even 4.

Im using ILFORD MGIV RC deluxe paper, and I usually use the high contrast filter at 4.

 

[ann]

yes, the negative, so should I just develop for less time? I plan to use D-76 from now on. I'm kinda confused as to how overdevelopment would achieve this if developing more is suppose to bring out contrast.

More development = less contrast. The longer the development the more the silver is activated.

Pushing film (ie shooting 400 as 1600) will give you more contrast but require more development as the film has been exposed to less light.

More development =less contrast is not correct. More development = more contrast, that is why one pushes, to add contrast which also increases contrast. Basically pushing means underexposing, which means one has to over developed.

 

[timor]

Iane, maybe this would help:
Advanced Digital Black & White Photography: Amazon.ca: John Beardsworth: Books
Nothing like a good read.

 

[lane]

Iane, maybe this would help:
Advanced Digital Black & White Photography: Amazon.ca: John Beardsworth: Books
Nothing like a good read.

Im talking bout film though, why link me a digital book.....loool

 

[BlackSheep]

lane, I've been following this but not posting (ann is giving you the info you need already).
But, if you are interested in books here's a couple of recommendations that you might like:

Upton & Upton's Photography Photography: Adapted from the Life Library of Photography [ILLUSTRATED]: Barbara London Upton, John Upton: 9780673398420: Amazon.com: Books This was THE first-year college/university textbook for every photography program here in Ontario (at least) in the late 1980's.

I have not looked at this book yet, but have heard good things about it: Basic Photographic Materials & Processes by Salvaggio;
Basic Photographic Materials and Processes: Nanette L. Salvaggio: 9780240809847: Amazon.com: Books#_

Keep us posted on how you are doing.

 

[BlackSheep]

Another thought - is your paper OK? As in, did it get exposed to heat, or fogged due to low levels of light during storage, and/or is it very expired?

And, are you developing your prints in trays or through a processing machine?

 

[dxqcanada]

Been researching the zone system and all that but im still confused, maybe someone can explain it in layman.

This page might help -> Zone System

Expose for the shadow detail and develop for the highlights
Assuming we are talking about negative film.

Zone System is best used on single frames ... such as sheet film, so each frame can be developed uniquely.
Harder to do when you have a roll of frames that all get developed the same.

 

[timor]

Iane, maybe this would help:
Advanced Digital Black & White Photography: Amazon.ca: John Beardsworth: Books
Nothing like a good read.

Im talking bout film though, why link me a digital book.....loool

I don't know, why I did it. I must have taken wrong past and copy shortcut as I am not even interested in digital photography, lol. Sorry.
I rather meant this:
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...sg=AFQjCNGoY-nStGfpiNx7rbHgz9lhRTp99A&cad=rja
which is a pdf edition of this:
Amazon.com: Black and White Photography: A Basic Manual Third Revised Edition (9780316373050): Henry Horenstein: Books

 

[timor]

Also here 6 megs pdf:
Black & White Photography | Henry Horenstein | digital library BookOS
Actually here is a whole stash of photography books in pdf's. Apparently they are for free:
Download books "Arts & Photography - Photography". Ebook library Bookos.org

 

[timor]

This "stash" however is mostly for digital folks.

 

[BlackSheep]

Timor, thank you for sharing that link, there's a lot of good stuff there!
FYI, they limit you to 10 downloads for free, then you have to register. Don't know what's involved with registering, I was happy with my 10 free books so stopped there.

Also here 6 megs pdf:
Black & White Photography | Henry Horenstein | digital library BookOS
Actually here is a whole stash of photography books in pdf's. Apparently they are for free:
Download books "Arts & Photography - Photography". Ebook library Bookos.org

 

[timor]

Your welcome. Power of Google (sneaky spy).

 

[photozs]

More development =less contrast is not correct. More development = more contrast, that is why one pushes, to add contrast which also increases contrast. Basically pushing means underexposing, which means one has to over developed.

Ann, imagine what a negative would look like if you over-processed it by a stop or two. Is there more information in all areas of the neg or less? Hopefully you're thinking more!
You could keep processing until you end up with a solid black neg and on the way there your contrast decreases. More processing=less contrast (whether pushing the film or not.)

The higher contrast in a push process comes from underexposing the film. As the film was exposed without enough light to activate the silver properly the shadows in your negs have less detail. The highlights in your neg are also underexposed but the push process adjusts for that. As a push process can't invent detail where it never was though, you will end up with less detailed shadows (strong blacks) and fewer tones between those and the highlights. Consequently the negs and prints will have less tonal range.
Pushing neg film creates more contrast. Pulling neg film reduces contrast.
Shorter processing time=higher contrast
Longer processing time=less contrast

If you want to push film but retain as much tonality as possible use a dilute processor with a longer processing time. Similarly, if you want to put contrast into pulled film go for a stronger ratio and/or shortened processing time.

The same rules apply to correctly exposed film neg of course!

 

[timor]

Interesting.