Einstain E640 vs AlienBees B1600

[unpopular]

tldr - but in case it hasn't already been mentioned (and I am sure it must have been) power does not equate output. My super cheap 300ws Mettles (the brand that Adorama rebrands as Flashpoint) produce more light than the 400ws Alienbees according to their own spec sheets and my measurements.

How much of that energy is converted into light will depend on design. For what it's worth, I'm happy with my Mettles nad never experienced too much trouble with them. They can be a tiny bit purplish, about one out of ten exposures.

If you're looking for something to play around with I am sure the Alienbees are fine. If you're looking for something to make money with and can afford it, I'd go with something more "professional".

 

[Scatterbrained]

You have the main advantages listed, yes. Consistent color temperature, even at low power, and short duration, high-speed flash. In terms of quality of results, I think two things: flash duration is, for most people, relatively unimportant on MOST jobs, and 2-the results depend more on the USER'S SKILL at lighting than on the brand on the housing.

I would rather have FIVE low-cost Adorama Flashpoint 320M models than two, or three, Einstein 640 units. I want the ability to have FIVE lights if I need them. Your situation might be different.

The quality of result is more up to YOU than to the brand you have, but it can also be dependent upon having the needed "stuff".

There are plenty of lights on the market that will get the job done.

You seem to need to be told this point-blank: the skill of the guy doing the lighting placement and making the decisions is VASTLY more-critical than the name on the housing. Being able to exercise good control over the light output, using snoots, grids, reflectors, parabolics, umbrellas, soft boxes, barn doors, gels, scrims,diffusion disc, diffusion sheets or scrims or screens, flags, reflectors, stands, boom arms, etc.--that is what lighting is about.

You need more MODIFIERS and more light-shaping tools and more individual lights than you do ultimate power, or flash duration, or color temp regulation. The light units themselves are NOT the most-critical factor in the results you get. You cannot just buy your way to good lighting results.

I would say true, but with some caveats.

First, control. With PCB lights you can invest in the CyberCommander system and control all your lights from the remote. You can meter each light individually and adjust power to suit. This can be pretty handy when you've got lights in hard to reach places like overhead, under a table, or behind some furniture. The system works with all the lights PCB sells, so if you start with Alien Bees and then decide you want an Einstein or two you can still use the same system. Adorama does have a remote triggering system they sell for their lights, but it doesn't offer any control functions.

Second would be after sales support. If you have an issue (maybe you dropped a light in a creek or a boom arm falls over in a parking lot) and you need to get it fixed, what kind of after sales support/service can you expect? If you have an issue with the light what kind of warranty service can you expect? If you blow a flash tube is it replaceable?

Third, modifiers? What mount does the strobe use? The Adorama Flashpoint line may be a rebranded Mettle, but according to Helen, it uses it's own mount, rather than the standard Bowens mount that the Mettles come with. If you want the Mettle with the Bowens mount, you have to go through Cowboy Studio, not the most reliable seller if you have an issue. This can matter when buying third part modifiers (although the new line of Glow modifiers looks quite promising, especially the "Grande" units). As has been pointed out, PCB sells more lights in the U.S. than anyone else, by a wide margin (over 20,000 Alien Bees alone last year according to Buff), this means you shouldn't have an issue finding modifiers that fit the Balcar mount that PCB uses.
Beyond that Derrel is right, light is light. It's more important that you know how to light than it is what light you use. The issue becomes more a matter of what features you're willing to pay for. Lights like the Flashpoint/Mettles are durable, and offer a great value for the money, but they lack the extra features of the more expensive systems like PCB. Also remember that there is a such thing as too much power. If you buy a handful of 640ws lights, you might struggle to dial them down enough indoors. That's one of the great things about the Einsteins, they cover the full range from 640ws all the way down to 2.5ws, with color consistency all the way through the range. The B1600 (640ws) only goes down to 20ws, if you want less than that you'll need another light with a lower power rating. Not only that, but if you're using lights at various ends of their power spectrum you'll have to deal with the color shift that can be "awkward" to fix in post. Nothing like having good color on the subject but a megenta cast on the background. With lights like the Einsteins it's not an issue. Of course, you pay for that luxury.

 

[unpopular]

Also remember that there is a such thing as too much power. If you buy a handful of 640ws lights, you might struggle to dial them down enough indoors.

This is true even of my 300ws mettles. I would recommend anyone with limited space to get neutral density gels.

 

[Derrel]

A good comparison of the bare-tube metered flash outputs of the Flashpoint 320M (150 Watt-seconds); Alien Bee 400 (160 W-s); Flashpoint 620M (300 W-s); Alien Bee 800 (320 W-s).

product review | adorama flashpoint studio gear | Clickin MomsClickin Moms

It's true: Paul C. Buff sells more amateur and hobbyist level lights than any makers in the USA. That's because Paul C. Buff is the ONLY company that has nearly three decades of smart, intense, targeted, intelligent, CONSTANT advertising and marketing, in places where it actually reaches hobbyists. For the entire decade of the 1990's and the 2000's, Paul C. Buff advertised with full-page ads in Shutterbug Magazine, every single month. He has done the BEST advertising, and the BEST marketing of ANY of the USA based flash companies.

Paul C. Buff is # 1 in sales of entry level and mid-level lighting gear. Just as McDonald's is "America's top restaurant chain." They both got that way by advertising and marketing very well, for a long time. A lot of Buff gear breaks down and malfunctions, and they replace it willingly and quickly. it's like a messed up order at Mickey D's..they throw the bad order away, and give you new stuff. That's not the business model Speedotron or Photogenic or Dynalite have been built upon. Quite the opposite in fact;those manufacturers have been built on the idea of decades-long service under HEAVY use, and repair, not throw-away-and-ship-out-new when stuff breaks down.

 

[WayneF]

When you look at the a la carte price of the 3-outlet, 400 Watt-second RoadMax power pack, with its three-head outlet capacity, it's $915, so I think the two kits are pretty good deals.

Dynalite MP400 400W/s RoadMax Power Pack MP400 B&H Photo Video

But in pack systems, that 400 watt seconds total is divided among all the heads. Three heads, 400 ws / 3 = 133 ws each, maximum. Which would be commonly usable in the studio, but power wise, it is not a good comparison to three monolights.

tldr - but in case it hasn't already been mentioned (and I am sure it must have been) power does not equate output. My super cheap 300ws Mettles (the brand that Adorama rebrands as Flashpoint) produce more light than the 400ws Alienbees according to their own spec sheets and my measurements.

There are other points even more tricky. Flashpoint is not big on disclosing specs. What is the angular coverage of the reflector that was metered for this comparison? For example, the Alienbees standard reflector is 80 degrees. For others, anywhere from 35 to 50 degrees is common though, and thus even the same power concentrated into a narrow beam is always much stronger than a dispersed wide beam. More like comparing a concentrated spot on the wall, versus lighting the entire wall. For example, this does not specify anything, but it does not look like 80 degrees.
Flashpoint 7in Standard Reflector f/ Bowens Light Units B404

A narrow beam meters well, but it counts for nothing in a softbox or similar - where you need actual power for wider coverage. Just saying, we need some details to know anything at all.


I always worry about apples and oranges.

 

[Scatterbrained]

A good comparison of the bare-tube metered flash outputs of the Flashpoint 320M (150 Watt-seconds); Alien Bee 400 (160 W-s); Flashpoint 620M (300 W-s); Alien Bee 800 (320 W-s).

product review | adorama flashpoint studio gear | Clickin MomsClickin Moms

It's true: Paul C. Buff sells more amateur and hobbyist level lights than any makers in the USA. That's because Paul C. Buff is the ONLY company that has nearly three decades of smart, intense, targeted, intelligent, CONSTANT advertising and marketing, in places where it actually reaches hobbyists. For the entire decade of the 1990's and the 2000's, Paul C. Buff advertised with full-page ads in Shutterbug Magazine, every single month. He has done the BEST advertising, and the BEST marketing of ANY of the USA based flash companies.

Paul C. Buff is # 1 in sales of entry level and mid-level lighting gear. Just as McDonald's is "America's top restaurant chain." They both got that way by advertising and marketing very well, for a long time. A lot of Buff gear breaks down and malfunctions, and they replace it willingly and quickly. it's like a messed up order at Mickey D's..they throw the bad order away, and give you new stuff. That's not the business model Speedotron or Photogenic or Dynalite have been built upon. Quite the opposite in fact;those manufacturers have been built on the idea of decades-long service under HEAVY use, and repair, not throw-away-and-ship-out-new when stuff breaks down.

No issues with mine so far, and I use them almost daily. (looks for crossed fingers smiley)

It's funny, because when I go to DisneyWorld (about 4 times a year) they have PCB lights everywhere. The same goes for all the low buck franchise portrait studios that I've seen (though most are out of business now around here). It's not just hobbyists using them. They offer a level of functionality at a price point. The same goes for every other light on the market. The issue is, what features do you want and what are you willing to pay?

 

[WayneF]

I have four Alienbees. They've been great, but one did fail after eight years. They repaired it for $40, which included return shipping. Actually, I added a flash tube to it while it was there, so it totaled $75. Same serial number was returned to me. I call it mighty great service.

Try that with some of the others. The cheap ones don't even have return addresses.

 

[hombredelmar]

I meant for $2100 or so you get two, separate power packs and three MH 2015 Road Flash Heads, which are $342 each at B&H Photo right now.

Dynalite MH2015 Road Flash Head MH2015 B&H Photo Video

These weigh 1.9 pound each--VERY light for a studio flash head. When you look at the a la carte price of the 3-outlet, 400 Watt-second RoadMax power pack, with its three-head outlet capacity, it's $915, so I think the two kits are pretty good deals.

Dynalite MP400 400W/s RoadMax Power Pack MP400 B&H Photo Video

I myself however, think that LESS power, and "more lights" is often what is needed, so I would look at a slightly different power pack as the basis of my kit. The Dynalite MP400 Roadmax PM power pack--a slightly different one than in the above kits. It weighs 4.2 pounds, has 1.0 second recycle time, a BUILT-IN 32-channel Pocket Wizard Receiver, IR slave, and optical slave, 6-stop power range, and this is the critical; difference, it has FOUR head outlets. This pack is split into two channels, each with full/half/quarter power switches, for seven basic power settings, plus 2/10 stop click-stop adjustment.

To "me", that is the idea setup for location jobs. A SMALL, light, rugged, SIMPLE , 400 Watt-second, two-channel, symmetrical/asymmetrical, click-stop regulated pack from the best name in this kind of lighting. With today's cameras, 400 Watt-seconds of flash is very useful for many jobs. I own three 400 Watt-second packs myself.

The thing about the MP400: it has FULL/HALF/QUARTER power options, on two different separate switches. THAT is awesome, and a most useful option. The MP400 is probably the finest 400 W-s pack made currently.

Thanks Derrel, for the past two days I got so much info that I will need to process!
Thank you for your contribution.
One thing, when I was researching on this particular brand I have found that the accessories (soft boxes, ambrellas and so on are kind of expensive compare to other brands).
Do you think I will be able to find third party accessories that would be compatible for this particular brand (Dynalite) ?

 

[hombredelmar]

I have four Alienbees. They've been great, but one did fail after eight years. They repaired it for $40, which included return shipping. Actually, I added a flash tube to it while it was there, so it totaled $75. Same serial number was returned to me. I call it mighty great service.

Try that with some of the others. The cheap ones don't even have return addresses.

How is your Alienbees in terms of color temperature at lower power?
Have you ever noticed anything?
Thanks

 

[Scatterbrained]

I have four Alienbees. They've been great, but one did fail after eight years. They repaired it for $40, which included return shipping. Actually, I added a flash tube to it while it was there, so it totaled $75. Same serial number was returned to me. I call it mighty great service.

Try that with some of the others. The cheap ones don't even have return addresses.

How is your Alienbees in terms of color temperature at lower power?
Have you ever noticed anything?
Thanks

You'll notice it, but it's correctable. It's a common issue with lights that use that kind of circuitry. That's one of the reasons why the new generation of lights like the Einsteins and new Profotos, etc, are such a big deal.

 

[Derrel]

One thing, when I was researching on this particular brand I have found that the accessories (soft boxes, ambrellas and so on are kind of expensive compare to other brands).
Do you think I will be able to find third party accessories that would be compatible for this particular brand (Dynalite) ?

Umbrellas vary in price from $7 made in CHina e-Bay specials to $159 or more models made by big-name lighting companies, but keep in minmd: umbrellas are pretty much brand-agnostic; the umbrellas sold by the manufacturers (like Speedotron or Norman or Dynalite) are models they feel will not fall apart or disgrace their brand, but you're free to buy others. ALso, some of the double-fold models, which are ultra-compact, cost more than single-fold umbrellas.

As far as softbox speedrings: I would buy the Chimera speed rings designed for Speedotron Brown Line. These speed rings use an aluminum shaft mounted underneath the ring, and mount the speedring to the light head AS IF it were an umbrella. Part of the reason Dynalite accessories cost more is that Dynalite is one of VERY few manufacturers whose light heads all have a BUILT-IN reflector, and do NOT need an accessory reflector. That means you never need to pack pesky reflectors if you're good with the 140 degree beam spread of the head "as-it-sits".

Prices for accessories are part of system electronic flash. Look at the Profoto "globe" for over $600--THEN think about how much the Dynalite accessories cost. My impression from your OTHER thread is that you want a location flash kit, not something optimized for in-studio shooting of small table top photography. That's why I suggested the DynaLite pack with built in 32-channel PocketWizard triggering, IR triggering, and optical slave, as well as PC outlet triggering. Dynalite is fully professional gear...this is NOT hobbyist stuff. This is 25-30 year gear. This is the brand Sports Illustrated shooters and most arenas in the USA use. Speedotron and Dynalite own that business. Paul C. BUff is not even in the building.

As Scatterbrained suggested, there **is** such a thing as "too much power". My experience is that a 400 Watt-second power pack with three, or four lights dividing up that amount of power, is just about right for location shoots; not too heavy, easy to pack, and you can have FOUR lights split up 7 basic ways, with incremental click-stop control over output. There is a reason this system has been designed as it has, and there's a reason the 400 W-s pack has been around for 40+ years.

 

[WayneF]

I have four Alienbees. They've been great, but one did fail after eight years. They repaired it for $40, which included return shipping. Actually, I added a flash tube to it while it was there, so it totaled $75. Same serial number was returned to me. I call it mighty great service.

Try that with some of the others. The cheap ones don't even have return addresses.

How is your Alienbees in terms of color temperature at lower power?
Have you ever noticed anything?
Thanks

Sure, they become a little red at low power, like any and every other voltage controlled flash. And like every speedlight becomes a little blue.
Any other expectation is naive (except the Einsteins offer a solution). Flash tube spectrum changes with power level (amps of current through the tube).
It is easy to deal with, esp in studio light sessions. Just put a $5 Porta Brace White Balance card in the first test picture. WB becomes quite a trivial issue.


In regard to red color shift, it is merely a fact of life, and make no mistake - the Alienbees are no different than any brand. Alienbees do turn down to as far as 1/32 power, which is a little lower than others that only go to 1/16 power. 1/16 will be less color shift than 1/32.

At least this company honestly explains the deal to us: Paul C. Buff, Inc. Technical Forum ? View topic - Color/White Balance Balance Explained

Says:
Color Temperature drops at 75° to 90°K per f-stop of power reduction (typically 350 - 400° variation from full to 1/32 power).

R/G axis tints typically shift by 7 to 10 units over the same power adjustment range.

Flash duration typically lengthens by about double over the same power adjustment range.


No other company will mention color, at most they only give us a phony standard number. They are not going to discuss color, it would shatter illusions. Einstein likely will change their ways again, when they can figure it out.

We hear lots of idiotic user comments (talking without understanding), and users buying the high price brands do like to imagine their lights are perfect, but of course, they use flash tubes too, and are no different.
Profoto vs White Lightning vs Elinchrom Results - Pro Photo HOME

The Alienbees and White Lightnings are the same electrical design inside (according to designer Paul C Buff). The White Lightnings are just more robust construction, metal cases, etc.

I forgot to mention, when I had the repair done, I also asked for another PC sync cable. They threw one in for free. It's one hell of company.

 

[hombredelmar]

I have four Alienbees. They've been great, but one did fail after eight years. They repaired it for $40, which included return shipping. Actually, I added a flash tube to it while it was there, so it totaled $75. Same serial number was returned to me. I call it mighty great service.

Try that with some of the others. The cheap ones don't even have return addresses.

How is your Alienbees in terms of color temperature at lower power?
Have you ever noticed anything?
Thanks

Sure, they become a little red at low power, like any and every other voltage controlled flash. And like every speedlight becomes a little blue.
Any other expectation is naive (except the Einsteins offer a solution). Flash tube spectrum changes with power level (amps of current through the tube).
It is easy to deal with, esp in studio light sessions. Just put a $5 Porta Brace White Balance card in the first test picture. WB becomes quite a trivial issue.


In regard to red color shift, it is merely a fact of life, and make no mistake - the Alienbees are no different than any brand. Alienbees do turn down to as far as 1/32 power, which is a little lower than others that only go to 1/16 power. 1/16 will be less color shift than 1/32.

At least this company honestly explains the deal to us: Paul C. Buff, Inc. Technical Forum ? View topic - Color/White Balance Balance Explained

Says:
Color Temperature drops at 75° to 90°K per f-stop of power reduction (typically 350 - 400° variation from full to 1/32 power).

R/G axis tints typically shift by 7 to 10 units over the same power adjustment range.

Flash duration typically lengthens by about double over the same power adjustment range.


No other company will mention color, at most they only give us a phony standard number. They are not going to discuss color, it would shatter illusions. Einstein likely will change their ways again, when they can figure it out.

We hear lots of idiotic user comments (talking without understanding), and users buying the high price brands do like to imagine their lights are perfect, but of course, they use flash tubes too, and are no different.
Profoto vs White Lightning vs Elinchrom Results - Pro Photo HOME

The Alienbees and White Lightnings are the same electrical design inside (according to designer Paul C Buff). The White Lightnings are just more robust construction, metal cases, etc.

I forgot to mention, when I had the repair done, I also asked for another PC sync cable. They threw one in for free. It's one hell of company.

Thank you for the link. I should tell you the truth, I looked at it and did not have a clue of what was going on there. However I printed out the chart and will try to analize it at home

 

[WayneF]

Thank you for the link. I should tell you the truth, I looked at it and did not have a clue of what was going on there. However I printed out the chart and will try to analize it at home

If you mean the second link, it was just a test reporting measured color temperature, from full to minimum power, showing that three brands of better monolights all have very similar red shift at lower power levels. Like 400+ degrees K shift to lower temp between full and 1/32 power, which is a red shift. (One was 350K shift at 1/16 power). No surprise, has to be, simply how flash tubes work when voltage is varied.

The first link was Paul C Buff explaining how his lights work, telling how it is, and disclosing the same information that the test measured. The other brands don't discuss color shift, the less said the better. Which supports some wrong notions.

 

[hombredelmar]

Thank you for the link. I should tell you the truth, I looked at it and did not have a clue of what was going on there. However I printed out the chart and will try to analize it at home

If you mean the second link, it was just a test reporting measured color temperature, from full to minimum power, showing that three brands of better monolights all have very similar red shift at lower power levels. Like 400+ degrees K shift to lower temp between full and 1/32 power, which is a red shift. (One was 350K shift at 1/16 power). No surprise, has to be, simply how flash tubes work when voltage is varied.

The first link was Paul C Buff explaining how his lights work, telling how it is, and disclosing the same information that the test measured. The other brands don't discuss color shift, the less said the better. Which supports some wrong notions.

Thanks WayneF for the explanation. Since you mentioned that the color temperature is fixable problem. I was wandering if that color shift effects white balance of the shot or it is something else and how long does it take to fix it in PS of Lightroom?
Thanks