Einstein possibly wrong about the speed of light

[Tomasko]

Uhm, the Scientists didn't fund it or build it. Just like the Astronauts did not build the Space Shuttle that went to the moon.

Yes, some achievements bring about a sense of National Pride. I can understand with you living in Slovakia that you might be unfamiliar with that feeling.

I agree that not only the scientists should have the credit, but all the people involved. That means all the technicians, engineers, builders etc, who made it possible. BUT, it has nothing to do with the whole nation! You shouldn't feel proud of someone else if you didn't do a thing, JUST BECAUSE he lives in the same country.

And about the "National Pride"... You think the communists who occupied my country for more than 40 years didn't preach the same bull....? It's exactly the same attitude, it just has a different label on it, if you like it or not.

You're right I'm not familiar with that feeling and it has one simple reason - I don't believe, that someone should be proud of someone else's achievement only because he was born in the same city or in the same country or whatever.

I can be proud of human achievements, but certainly not of some fictional national thing, which only encourages people to fight each other. You made a great example in this thread. People made a great discovery and your whole post is about you're feeling jealous.

I don't give a sh... if the experiment took place in China, Russia, Afghanistan or even Brasil, nor should you. If the results prove right, we all will benefit from it and that's what matters the most.

 

[analog.universe]

In all honesty though, how does it affect us?

I personally think the Cern project is a waste of money as is studying such things as solar flares. Ok so we will have a better understanding of such events and what not, but I think Mother Nature has proven she is an unstoppable force and us mere mortals just need to ride the wave and go with the flow.

I've always thought from a young age whilst still at school being taught such things as physics, How do they know?

There is so much science that is only theory, such as the Theory of relativity.

Theory being the operative word, if there is no hard evidence then I don't believe it based on an assumption. I also believe the that by the time we can actually benefit from a project such as Cern the Human race will be no more.

Rather than invest billions in experiments that are unlikely to benefit us, the worlds governments should invest in such things as renewable energy rather than go to war with the middle east in the conquest of securing oil and gas and other fossil fuels. We as a race are raping the earth of it's natural resources which in turn has and adverse effect on the planet which inevitably will lead to our destruction as a race.

By the way I'm no tree hugger but if you look at the events of the past 10 years and the wars that have raged over the need for fuel, and the natural disasters that have been occurring supposedly as a result of Global warming, I can see only one future be it in my lifetime or not.

Something at CERN that looks like fringe physics now may in 20 years be providing us with an efficient energy source. The theory of relativity is a theory, but in practice it works. I'm sure in the early part of the 20th century it seemed fringe and barely relevant. Without it however, GPS devices wouldn't work, we wouldn't know how to calculate airline trajectories, or launch satellites, etc... The whole of nuclear energy (while debatable in it's positive impact on humanity) was at one time fringe unprovable theory. Our governments most certainly divide their money in hideous and unproductive ways, but we still need to fund cutting edge science.

Besides, if you look at the actual money spent, the U.S. spends more in Iraq in 3 days than the entirety of Europe on CERN in a year. CERN to me seems to have a better probability of return on investment. The more we understand fringe physics, the better our technology will get, and the closer we'll be to a sustainable energy solution.

 

[Tomasko]

In all honesty though, how does it affect us?

I personally think the Cern project is a waste of money as is studying such things as solar flares. Ok so we will have a better understanding of such events and what not, but I think Mother Nature has proven she is an unstoppable force and us mere mortals just need to ride the wave and go with the flow.

I've always thought from a young age whilst still at school being taught such things as physics, How do they know?

There is so much science that is only theory, such as the Theory of relativity.

Theory being the operative word, if there is no hard evidence then I don't believe it based on an assumption. I also believe the that by the time we can actually benefit from a project such as Cern the Human race will be no more.

Rather than invest billions in experiments that are unlikely to benefit us, the worlds governments should invest in such things as renewable energy rather than go to war with the middle east in the conquest of securing oil and gas and other fossil fuels. We as a race are raping the earth of it's natural resources which in turn has and adverse effect on the planet which inevitably will lead to our destruction as a race.

By the way I'm no tree hugger but if you look at the events of the past 10 years and the wars that have raged over the need for fuel, and the natural disasters that have been occurring supposedly as a result of Global warming, I can see only one future be it in my lifetime or not.

At the same time I don't dwell on this as there is absolutely nothing I can do to change events, so cay sera sera, what ever will be, will be the futures not ours to see.

Thanks to the THEORIES you can fly to the moon, can't you realize that?? Thanks to the theories you're sitting in front of a computer instead of writing a letters. Thanks to the theories you can use your microwave oven! Do I have to continue?
You really don't know how does people benefit from the theory of relativity? Please, are you serious or you're just trolling?

I bet you don't object government spending even more money on the military....

 

[Alpha500]

I bet you don't object government spending even more money on the military....

Maybe you never read my post in it's entirety.

the worlds governments should invest in such things as renewable energy rather than go to war with the middle east in the conquest of securing oil and gas and other fossil fuels. We as a race are raping the earth of it's natural resources which in turn has and adverse effect on the planet which inevitably will lead to our destruction as a race

Are you serious or are you just trolling?

The more we understand fringe physics, the better our technology will get, and the closer we'll be to a sustainable energy solution.

Maybe I was a little quick to criticise and I admittedly know very little about science and physics, but I read so much about governments wasting millions on public enquiries and research that never comes to fruition which makes me a sceptic on something I see no practical use for, although in this case you have opened my eyes.

That said, if the findings at Cern are true then isn't the theory of relativity obsolete?

 

[marmots]

In all honesty though, how does it affect us?

I personally think the Cern project is a waste of money as is studying such things as solar flares. Ok so we will have a better understanding of such events and what not, but I think Mother Nature has proven she is an unstoppable force and us mere mortals just need to ride the wave and go with the flow.

I've always thought from a young age whilst still at school being taught such things as physics, How do they know?

There is so much science that is only theory, such as the Theory of relativity.

Theory being the operative word, if there is no hard evidence then I don't believe it based on an assumption. I also believe the that by the time we can actually benefit from a project such as Cern the Human race will be no more.

Rather than invest billions in experiments that are unlikely to benefit us, the worlds governments should invest in such things as renewable energy rather than go to war with the middle east in the conquest of securing oil and gas and other fossil fuels. We as a race are raping the earth of it's natural resources which in turn has and adverse effect on the planet which inevitably will lead to our destruction as a race.

By the way I'm no tree hugger but if you look at the events of the past 10 years and the wars that have raged over the need for fuel, and the natural disasters that have been occurring supposedly as a result of Global warming, I can see only one future be it in my lifetime or not.

At the same time I don't dwell on this as there is absolutely nothing I can do to change events, so cay sera sera, what ever will be, will be the futures not ours to see.

you are the kind of person that make me embarrassed to call myself human...

science is an open minded field, therefore we almost never call anything an absolue. so no matter how much proof we have, until we know that there is absolutely no other possibility anywhere in the universe or beyond, we call it a theory
if, and only if we can be certain that it is an absolute, then we can call it a law

 

[analog.universe]

That said, if the findings at Cern are true then isn't the theory of relativity obsolete?

Not obsolete, because until now, it's worked in every conceivable circumstance. At the worst it will need revising... My guess however, is that the problem lies in one of the components. The speed of the neutrinos was measured by comparing 2 atomic clocks, maybe the act of shooting the neutrinos from one location to the other caused a shift in the clocks relative to each other, rather than the neutrinos actually arriving earlier than expected. Perhaps the act of the neutrino test influenced the shape of space between the emitter and collector, meaning the distance they travelled was shorter than we measured it, as a result of them having travelled it. Perhaps our measurement of the speed of light is affected by influences that do not affect the neutrinos. Whatever the case, some bit of theory needs revising, and when that happens, other unsolved bits of theory subsequently become solvable.

 

[Kerbouchard]

I spent the last 30 minutes researching Slovakia. Interesting history you guys have.

It's obvious that we are not going to come to an agreement. We come from just too different of a background.

For what it's worth, my whole post wasn't about me 'feeling' jealous. My post started with what I am finding interesting about the experiments. It then stated that I wish the U.S. wasn't getting out of cutting edge research. I feel like we are going backwards. Then I congratulated the Europeans for seeing such an amazing project through. It's not something the U.S. would do right now. Heck, we just cut NASA.

It's been about 300 years since Europe was really at the forefront of major Scientific breakthroughs. Looks like that time is upon us again.

And yes, as an American, that does matter to me. It effects where our best and brightest go to work. It effects our economy. It isn't just a matter of being proud that some human somewhere has achieved something. It is a sign of the U.S. passing the torch...not something I expected to see in my lifetime and not something I support in regards to our Domestic Policies.

Like I said, we are too far apart on this to come to any sort of agreement, but hopefully, I have at least clarified my position and the reasons for that position.

Uhm, the Scientists didn't fund it or build it. Just like the Astronauts did not build the Space Shuttle that went to the moon.

Yes, some achievements bring about a sense of National Pride. I can understand with you living in Slovakia that you might be unfamiliar with that feeling.

I agree that not only the scientists should have the credit, but all the people involved. That means all the technicians, engineers, builders etc, who made it possible. BUT, it has nothing to do with the whole nation! You shouldn't feel proud of someone else if you didn't do a thing, JUST BECAUSE he lives in the same country.

And about the "National Pride"... You think the communists who occupied my country for more than 40 years didn't preach the same bull....? It's exactly the same attitude, it just has a different label on it, if you like it or not.

You're right I'm not familiar with that feeling and it has one simple reason - I don't believe, that someone should be proud of someone else's achievement only because he was born in the same city or in the same country or whatever.

I can be proud of human achievements, but certainly not of some fictional national thing, which only encourages people to fight each other. You made a great example in this thread. People made a great discovery and your whole post is about you're feeling jealous.

I don't give a sh... if the experiment took place in China, Russia, Afghanistan or even Brasil, nor should you. If the results prove right, we all will benefit from it and that's what matters the most.

 

[Alpha500]

you are the kind of person that make me embarrassed to call myself human...

The American government generally give me that vibe to, but hey you voted them in not me.

Team America F**K yeah.

That said, if the findings at Cern are true then isn't the theory of relativity obsolete?

Not obsolete, because until now, it's worked in every conceivable circumstance. At the worst it will need revising... My guess however, is that the problem lies in one of the components. The speed of the neutrinos was measured by comparing 2 atomic clocks, maybe the act of shooting the neutrinos from one location to the other caused a shift in the clocks relative to each other, rather than the neutrinos actually arriving earlier than expected. Perhaps the act of the neutrino test influenced the shape of space between the emitter and collector, meaning the distance they travelled was shorter than we measured it, as a result of them having travelled it. Perhaps our measurement of the speed of light is affected by influences that do not affect the neutrinos. Whatever the case, some bit of theory needs revising, and when that happens, other unsolved bits of theory subsequently become solvable.

You sir, have enlightened me and altered my opinion slightly.

 

[spacefuzz]

Yay lots to comment on! Tomasko, scientists do deserve most of the credit. But I think you can thank Europe for footing the bill because CERN was NOT cheap. And well everyone seems to care more about money than physics on a day to day basis, so thank you for helping science via your taxes.

Astronauts did help design the rockets / spacecraft that went to the moon, many of them were aerospace engineers in addition to being test pilots. But the bulk of the credit still goes to the engineers, techs, etc who never got to fly. The discovery channel documentary Moon Machines is excellent if your interested in this subject.

Even if the neutrinos do go faster than light Relativity will still be useful. In the same way newtonian physics is still taught before modern physics. It doesnt explain everything, but it explains enough, accurately enough, for most things.

 

[spacefuzz]

In all honesty though, how does it affect us?

I personally think the Cern project is a waste of money as is studying such things as solar flares. Ok so we will have a better understanding of such events and what not, but I think Mother Nature has proven she is an unstoppable force and us mere mortals just need to ride the wave and go with the flow.

I've always thought from a young age whilst still at school being taught such things as physics, How do they know?

There is so much science that is only theory, such as the Theory of relativity.

Theory being the operative word, if there is no hard evidence then I don't believe it based on an assumption. I also believe the that by the time we can actually benefit from a project such as Cern the Human race will be no more.

Rather than invest billions in experiments that are unlikely to benefit us, the worlds governments should invest in such things as renewable energy rather than go to war with the middle east in the conquest of securing oil and gas and other fossil fuels. We as a race are raping the earth of it's natural resources which in turn has and adverse effect on the planet which inevitably will lead to our destruction as a race.

By the way I'm no tree hugger but if you look at the events of the past 10 years and the wars that have raged over the need for fuel, and the natural disasters that have been occurring supposedly as a result of Global warming, I can see only one future be it in my lifetime or not.

At the same time I don't dwell on this as there is absolutely nothing I can do to change events, so cay sera sera, what ever will be, will be the futures not ours to see.

sigh....I really hate it when people play up the theory thing. It just shows they dont really understand science very well.......

Well Alpha, we know things about physics due to experamintation. For example we know there are relatavistic time effects, and they are taken into account every time you use GPS to figure out where you are. You know the math is at least mostly right because the system works. You couldnt get systems like that without basic science research (your wasted billions).

Cell phones, small batteries, LEDs, soon OLEDs, carbon nanotubes, nano engineering, the processor in your computer (VERY limited by quantum effects so the research at CERN could open doors for faster computers). Everything electronic where you need to understand how and why electrons interact with each other. Its just too much, Im at a loss. Every satellite is in orbit because someone did the physics research necessary to understand why newtonian physics wasnt good enough for orbital mechanics. So these are high level benefits.

If we gain a better understand of quantum mechanics that means we have a better understanding of how all of these particles interact. Which if you study quantum mechanics, one of the coolest things to me (blew my mind really....) was the way electron orbitals are actually arranged (not like in your high school chemistry class) and how those orbitals explain how everything works and interacts. That effects all of the materials you use from the signle crystal superalloy turbine blades in jet engines to the battery in your phone. It can also have an effect on things like cancer or alzheimers research because all of the cells and proteins are also made of atoms. Protein interactions are enormously complex, so if there is a better understanding of how it all works at a basic level, you can get better medication.

Research into fundamental science, like CERN does, is just so enormously important. But it doesnt fall into the standard capitalist business model so needs funding from governments.

anyways rant over. Go physics. $5 on string theory.

 

[Alpha500]

If you look at post 23 I have already conceded defeat and admitted to enlightenment, I had an opinion on what I saw, but now what I see has changed that opinion somewhat.

Your right in what you say, I have a very limited understanding of science, I wasn't privileged enough to go to university or higher education and study quantum mechanics, I was thrown out into the world and had to make a living, but I haven't done so bad for myself with the limited education I received.

If Cern is a way to find future benefits for my children and my children's children then I take it all back. My concern at the time of writing my original post was, what seemed to me to be a waste of resources. Now thanks to this thread and a few Google searches my opinion has changed slightly.

On another note when people decide to bring things down to a personal insults I will inevitably retaliate.

 

[spacefuzz]

If you look at post 23 I have already conceded defeat and admitted to enlightenment, I had an opinion on what I saw, but now what I see has changed that opinion somewhat.

Your right in what you say, I have a very limited understanding of science, I wasn't privileged enough to go to university or higher education and study quantum mechanics, I was thrown out into the world and had to make a living, but I haven't done so bad for myself with the limited education I received.

If Cern is a way to find future benefits for my children and my children's children then I take it all back. My concern at the time of writing my original post was, what seemed to me to be a waste of resources. Now thanks to this thread and a few Google searches my opinion has changed slightly.

On another note when people decide to bring things down to a personal insults I will inevitably retaliate.

I apologize if it was construed as personal. Since its your belief I didnt know how else to phrase it.
My exhasperation got away from me. sorry

 

[Alpha500]

If you look at post 23 I have already conceded defeat and admitted to enlightenment, I had an opinion on what I saw, but now what I see has changed that opinion somewhat.

Your right in what you say, I have a very limited understanding of science, I wasn't privileged enough to go to university or higher education and study quantum mechanics, I was thrown out into the world and had to make a living, but I haven't done so bad for myself with the limited education I received.

If Cern is a way to find future benefits for my children and my children's children then I take it all back. My concern at the time of writing my original post was, what seemed to me to be a waste of resources. Now thanks to this thread and a few Google searches my opinion has changed slightly.

On another note when people decide to bring things down to a personal insults I will inevitably retaliate.

I apologize if it was construed as personal. Since its your belief I didnt know how else to phrase it.
My exhasperation got away from me. sorry

The personal insults thing wasn't aimed at you.

 

[Tomasko]

Like I said, we are too far apart on this to come to any sort of agreement, but hopefully, I have at least clarified my position and the reasons for that position.

Yes, thank you for your time

 

[Forkie]

actually the whole neutrino thing doesn't prove anything

they are not affected by the equation e=mc^2, because they are not matter, they have no mass, and therefore are not bound by this equation...people are just taking this discovery wrong

they are a rudimentary particle much like protons, and neutrons, however they have completely different properties

they don't even interact with the electromagnetic field surrounding all matter, therefore dont interact with matter at all

Even if that were true, the very fact that they are massless still shouldn't allow them to travel faster than the speed of light. Light photons are massless which is why they can travel at the speed they do, the point is that neutrinos were apparently seen to go faster.

I wonder if something caused these neutrinos to temporarily take on negative mass, or at least an equivalent of it...