Einsteins?

[Alpha]

On the other hand, one incidental benefit of Speedo's (and many pack systems in general) rigidity is that you're locked into the ratio. While you can't fine-tune each light very well on a single pack, the ratio between lights stays the same when you dial down the whole pack. So while you lose the ability to fine-tune each head, you never have to worry about whether the ratio is still correct while you're fiddling with individual lights.

 

[GrantH]

I have talked to Derrel in PM about the speedotrons and he was very helpful, but i'm still a bit skeptical of the ratio power system. Especially outside of a studio like I would use them.

My situation:

Alien Bees vs. Speedotron Blackline for automotive photography

-Alien Bees offer a slider for adjustability which I believe is a slide motion and not clicks (correct me if i'm wrong).
-Speedotrons offer adjustability on a ratio system

With a single power pack, what if I need to dial in light to an amount not available on the speedo pack? The alien bee would allow for the fine tuning. I don't know the frequency of this situation or if it would ever be needed, but the option is there one the alien bees and not the speedos. Correct? My other question is to power a 2400 watt power supply, would something like the vagabond mini work or do I need some larger and/or a generator?

 

[o hey tyler]

With a single power pack, what if I need to dial in light to an amount not available on the speedo pack? The alien bee would allow for the fine tuning. I don't know the frequency of this situation or if it would ever be needed, but the option is there one the alien bees and not the speedos. Correct? My other question is to power a 2400 watt power supply, would something like the vagabond mini work or do I need some larger and/or a generator?

If you need to find tune the adjustment of a light, move it closer or farther away... Like they used to back in the day.

You can also get a tri-level converter to make additional adjustments to brown line gear if I understand correctly. SPEEDOTRON BROWN LINE TRI-LEVEL CONTROL EX. CONDITION | eBay

 

[GrantH]

With a single power pack, what if I need to dial in light to an amount not available on the speedo pack? The alien bee would allow for the fine tuning. I don't know the frequency of this situation or if it would ever be needed, but the option is there one the alien bees and not the speedos. Correct? My other question is to power a 2400 watt power supply, would something like the vagabond mini work or do I need some larger and/or a generator?

If you need to find tune the adjustment of a light, move it closer or farther away... Like they used to back in the day.

You can also get a tri-level converter to make additional adjustments to brown line gear if I understand correctly. SPEEDOTRON BROWN LINE TRI-LEVEL CONTROL EX. CONDITION | eBay

Oddly enough, at least when I've viewed Ebay, the black line seems to be the better deal and more readily available. At least at the moment.

 

[Dominantly]

Oh boy (smoke coming from ears), what a read.

 

[Village Idiot]

I have talked to Derrel in PM about the speedotrons and he was very helpful, but i'm still a bit skeptical of the ratio power system. Especially outside of a studio like I would use them.

My situation:

Alien Bees vs. Speedotron Blackline for automotive photography

-Alien Bees offer a slider for adjustability which I believe is a slide motion and not clicks (correct me if i'm wrong).
-Speedotrons offer adjustability on a ratio system

With a single power pack, what if I need to dial in light to an amount not available on the speedo pack? The alien bee would allow for the fine tuning. I don't know the frequency of this situation or if it would ever be needed, but the option is there one the alien bees and not the speedos. Correct? My other question is to power a 2400 watt power supply, would something like the vagabond mini work or do I need some larger and/or a generator?

I use a 1200 w/s pack for automotive lighting with an Innovatronix Tronix Explorer XT SE. With a VML, your recycle time may end up being close to...forever?

 

[Big Mike]

Yes...you can also (sometimes) control the amount of exposure you're getting from a light, by how close it is to the subject. So don't think that monolights are 'that much' better than pack & head systems, in terms of adjustability.

I say 'sometimes' because it matter what your shooting. If something is characterized by 100% diffuse reflection, then the 'inverse square' law is in full effect. That means that if you move the light to half the distance it was before, the exposure gets 4 times brighter. If you moved it to 1\3 the original distance, it would be 9 times brighter. And if you went the other way and moved it twice as far from the subject, you get 1/4 the exposure.

If your subject is characterized by direct reflection (a shiny meter car, has both direct and diffuse reflection), then the exposure is not affected by the inverse square law (but the size of the direct reflection will be affected).

 

[GrantH]

I have talked to Derrel in PM about the speedotrons and he was very helpful, but i'm still a bit skeptical of the ratio power system. Especially outside of a studio like I would use them.

My situation:

Alien Bees vs. Speedotron Blackline for automotive photography

-Alien Bees offer a slider for adjustability which I believe is a slide motion and not clicks (correct me if i'm wrong).
-Speedotrons offer adjustability on a ratio system

With a single power pack, what if I need to dial in light to an amount not available on the speedo pack? The alien bee would allow for the fine tuning. I don't know the frequency of this situation or if it would ever be needed, but the option is there one the alien bees and not the speedos. Correct? My other question is to power a 2400 watt power supply, would something like the vagabond mini work or do I need some larger and/or a generator?

I use a 1200 w/s pack for automotive lighting with an Innovatronix Tronix Explorer XT SE. With a VML, your recycle time may end up being close to...forever?

With that in mind, and the fact i'm looking to use them outside of the house away from power, I really don't know which is better for me lol.

 

[Derrel]

If you want to photograph LARGE objects like automobiles, it would seem to me that you should forget the tiny lights, and go for a system that allows you to put some real watt-seconds through the flashtubes. Monolight manufacturers push the micro-adjustability of their products, since it is a feature that they offer. However, in the real world of lighting, if you need 2/10 of an f/stop less light or more light, you typically just nudge the lightstand a little closer or a little farther back. And, since it is now 2011, and not 1987, we have cameras that allow 1/3 stop bracketing of exposure via the ISO control, with basically zero penalty in image quality. And, with no push/or pull-processing charges from the film developing lab. We're not shooting Ektachrome 64 Professional these days, so the micro-adjustability feature that monolight makers tout...it's largely a marketing feature that is easy to capitalize on. And, no offense to anybody involved, but it (micro-adjustable power settings) is EXACTLY the kind of non-important feature that sways so many newbies in their purchasing decisions...it's easy to understand, and it SOUNDS GOOD to people who have no experience in lighting things.


Back to the original post--"Einsteins?". Einsteins are newly-introduced. It took years, literally, and loads of delays and excuses and blame-shifting (engineers,and parts suppliers, were both publicly and repeatedly blamed for their failures in the years' long development process) before they finally made it to market. The Einstein 640 has great specifications. Short flash durations,always. Excellent color consistency across a wide range of power levels. Good recycling times. Nice controls. The question to me is, in the context of MLeeK's original post, devoted to small-studio or in-home portraiture is: "Are they worth $499.95 per light, when for studio portraiture, one often needs two accent lights set to output only 50 watt-seconds each?" I maintain that studio portraiture requires five separate lights on many,many occasions. That's a $2,500 investment, and the most-powerful light you have is a "640 model", which to ME, means about a 300 watt-second light...I am not fooled by the doubling of the power level and calling that the model number--that is Buff's game...

 

[GrantH]

I must say, well put and explained Derrel. I am excited to purchase my power pack and head shortly after the new year and save for 1 more and an actual "power supply".

Seems like what you say about portrait photographers is not logical either. A couple of large expensive lights vs. multiple smaller cheaper. I guess you can fry fish many ways.

 

[MLeeK]

I am not fooled by the doubling of the power level and calling that the model number--that is Buff's game...

I think it is a LOT of the monolight manufacturer's game. WHY is that?? For God's sake, just make it easier! LOL!

 

[Derrel]

I am not fooled by the doubling of the power level and calling that the model number--that is Buff's game...

I think it is a LOT of the monolight manufacturer's game. WHY is that?? For God's sake, just make it easier! LOL!

Well, it goes wayyyy back to the 1980's, when monolights were just coming into their own. Prior to that, studio flash had been dominated by old-line companies like Speedotron, who invented the first commerical electronic pack and head system in 1939, as well as Photogenic Machine Company, another heartland, USA company with roots dating back even farther (but not in flash technology), to the early 1900's. In the early White Lightning days, Paul Buff began using the term "effective watt-seconds" in his full- and half-page magazine advertisements, ostensibly to counteract claims from unnamed "other manufacturers". This subject has come up many times on various forums, over many years. "Nobody" really knows "who or what" these other manufacturers were or are. The concept of "effective watt-seconds" being somewhere around DOUBLE that of competing "other" brands of lighting equipment is pure marketing genius, and at the same time, is incredibly devious and disingenuous.

Another example is the Lumen-Seconds measurements Buff likes to throw around...another measurement nobody else uses...and a totally meaningless number to 99.5% of photographers. Buff is also reluctant to provide simple Guide Number comparisons stating a reflector size, model, and beam spread angle...This "doubling" thing is now widespread, as other manufacturers have been forced to adopt Paul C. Buff's decades-old smoke and mirror naming convention...the Alien Bee 400 is a 160 watt-second light unit...

The entire "un-named" and "phantom" competition concept is one that, once again, Buff himself began as a marketing device. It spreads fear, uncertainty, and doubt quite nicely. The guy is a marketing genius. Well, let me re-state that: the many makers of studio flash systems are some of the ABSOLUTE-WORST MARKETERS IN ALL OF THE PHOTOGRAPHIC FIELD!!! I have no idea how some companies have stayed in business for so long, except pure word of mouth advertising.

 

[Big Mike]

Hey Derrel, what's your opinion (if any) on Ascorlight pack & head systems? I've got two old packs and (I think) six heads. The packs need repair work, but they do function. Just one pack will blow the (house) circuit breaker after a few shots, so I've never really tried using them for a shoot.