Everyone thinks they can be a pro! (RANT)

[Overread42]

Cats who don't mess in a corner and don't eat manure (or anything else vile!) and then come lick your face

 

[PatrickHMS]

Cats who don't mess in a corner and don't eat manure (or anything else vile!) and then come lick your face

lol...

 

[fwellers]

1. Well, let's start very basic. Know the difference and interactions between ISO, shutter, aperture. Know how to set them in camera AND UNDERSTAND WHY. Knowing that P-mode is not the end all of creating a quality picture is really step #1.

2. Understanding exposure to me means complete understanding of the ZONE SYSTEM for digital cameras and how to consistently use it with your camera.

3. Understanding the basics of composition and being able to effectively apply the concepts.

4. A good eye,

5. Polished post processing skills

To me, practice and mastery of these 4 concepts is a starting way towards being a good photographer. Not a great one by any means, but one that won't completely embarrass themselves if they open a 10 page portfolio or 3 minute slideshow.

Dude, you are way too harsh. I took a look at MrRogers pics, and there are quite a few real nice ones. Considering that he used a point and shoot, and didn't think about the technical aspect of photography at that time, I can see that he ( and many others I've seen ), have a natural wonderful eye. Many people seem to "understand" about composition without even knowing the written rules of them.

So while there is an aspect to photography that involves getting better exposures, and adjusting colors and white balance, and an aspect that involves other lense trickery to create blurring, motion, bokeh, etc...., there is an even more important ( in my mind ) aspect that possibly cannot be taught.
It's the eye.

Some of your posts are so discouraging, that if I took them to heart I'd throw my camera under a train.

 

[JerryPH]

Dude, you are way too harsh.

If you think that is harsh... you really would not just toss your camera under a train, but yourself too, if I told you the standards I set for myself... lol

I'm actually being minimalist when I say things like "this is what I consider the basics" on here compared to what I consider the "basics" for myself.

I've realized a long time ago that my standards for me are not the same as others. I am not saying they are better or worse, just higher. It kinda makes me laugh becuase I literally DEVOTE and THROW myself into this hobby... and I've been here about a year, and if you look at my first posts vs my posts now... yeah, I am constantly learning, but I've come a long way... and have 10X as far to go before I consider myself "good".

there is an even more important ( in my mind ) aspect that possibly cannot be taught. It's the eye.

While I agree that it is important to have "the eye", it means NOTHING if you do not understand the technical elements of how to transpose what is in your mind's eye to the camera and make it real. One without the other is still the same end result... an incomplete puzzle.

Some of your posts are so discouraging, that if I took them to heart I'd throw my camera under a train.

See above.
In life, there are no free lunches. Whatever you invest in yourself you get back. Expect a camera to do it all for you and not learn the basics, don't complain if your pics are mediocre. Don't feel bad when someone tells you this truth either, its not their fault for being honest... its your fault for not doing what is needed to reach a level of competency set by your peers and established by yourself as what you consider your level of competency in relation to others both above and below your knowledge and ability levels.

As far as MrRoger's pics... we've said it many a time here... its not the camera as much as it is the person behind the lens, and having an eye is only ONE small single piece in a huge puzzle.

This should not discourage you... if you give up that easily with something like this, it makes me wonder how easily you would fold if faced with a REAL challenge in life. Don't be afraid to take it by the horns and shake it around a little... the only thing that will happen is that your skills will improve.

All it takes is a sincere passion and effort, and though both passion and effort are monetarily "free", both come with their own price... a serious investment in time and dedication.

 

[RMThompson]

I don't think Jerry is being too harsh, but I don't agree with him on EVERYTHING. For instance, I don't think mastering post processing skills is a requirment to becoming a good photographer; after all, ideally we wouldn't NEED the post processing if our shots came out the way we wanted when we click the camera.

Regardless, this argument is an excersize in futility. We all have different definitions of what makes a photographer "GOOD", since "GOOD" is a subjective word!

Besides, this thread was about what makes a PRO... and none of this has to do with being a pro, but I think we've already covered that particular question a few dozen times!

 

[fwellers]

While I agree that it is important to have "the eye", it means NOTHING if you do not understand the technical elements of how to transpose what is in your mind's eye to the camera and make it real. One without the other is still the same end result... an incomplete puzzle.

I agree but also disagree with that statement. When I read your posts I get the feeling that unless you know enough technical stuff to fill a C5 aircraft, you may as well forget it. But I've seen better camera phone photos on this forum alone, that I only hope to be able to match someday with my D90.
Sure, the more you learn about what your camera can do, and how to do it, the more you'll be able to spin straw into gold, but it's a process, and there are plenty of worthy photographs to be taken all during the process especially if you have the "knack".

This should not discourage you... if you give up that easily with something like this, it makes me wonder how easily you would fold if faced with a REAL challenge in life. Don't be afraid to take it by the horns and shake it around a little... the only thing that will happen is that your skills will improve.

Oh don't worry. As I mentioned, I don't take your posted standards to heart, so I am not giving up. Please don't waste your time wondering how easily I will fold under any situation. You don't know me.

All it takes is a sincere passion and effort, and though both passion and effort are monetarily "free", both come with their own price... a serious investment in time and dedication.

Is that all it takes ? Because reading many of your posts, I see list after list of what it takes !
That's sort of my point.

 

[JerryPH]

For instance, I don't think mastering post processing skills is a requirment to becoming a good photographer;

I understand where you are coming from, but I did not say a mastery of post processing, I said merely a polished level. Give someone a year with an application that they use regularly and have a couple books on that they went through... that to me is polished, its by no means a master or expert on the topic.

As an example, using photoshop as a guide, the ability to do things like frames, exploit layers, manipulate white balance, selective colouring... nothing complex... polished, not mastered.

I too do not see a need for someone to be a complete master of post processing, however, if they don't know how to pull out some of the hidden aspects of a picture, they are loosing out a LOT and a "good" photographer should know how to extract those little nuances.

 

[Overread42]

passion and effort leads to the other things in time

Sure, the more you learn about what your camera can do, and how to do it, the more you'll be able to spin straw into gold, but it's a process, and there are plenty of worthy photographs to be taken all during the process especially if you have the "knack".

I don't think Jerry is saying that one must start at the end to be any good, nor that all the shots taken along the way are a waste. More I think he is just saying that to get to the standard (what ever that may be) takes time and learning - and that to understand both the elements of composition and also how to technically control your camera are key to achiving ones end result

 

[manaheim]

Hm.

Let's consider something outside of photography for a moment... perhaps it will strike some of the emotion from the conversation.

I play trumpet and have for about... jeez, almost 30 years now. Damn, I'm old. I happen to have a fairly nice horn... a Vincent Bach Silver. Can't remember the model number, but it ran about $2500 new a good 20 years ago. Beautiful instrument.

Anyway...

(by the way the following course of events has happened to me NUMEROUS times, so I'm not making this up... I'm just condensing it into one representative example)

Imagine the scenario with me and someone who has been playing for just a few years. (or even 5-8 years, for that matter). Assume the person is playing a standard old ~$300 Brass Yamaha or King student horn. Good, solid workhorse of an instrument. Nothing wrong with it.

I can sit next to the person and play on my VB while they play on their King/Yamaha. During a break the person turns to me and compliments my playing and says "I really need to get one of those Vincent Bach Silver trumpets." I smile, and say "You're welcome to play it if you like, just trade horns with me."

They get all excited and agree to swap. (I let go a sigh of relief as I get to hold a much lighter trumpet for a bit. )

We play the next piece. I usually marvel at how generally good the $300 instrument is, and I can always push the horn to it's limits and get really good sound out of it, but I often find the valve mechanism and little rough and usually can't get QUITE the rich tones out of the horn that I can get out of my Vincent Bach. However, usually the student brass horns are brighter and lighter, so they're fun for marches as it's easier to make it sound chipper, whereas my Vincent Bach silver tends to want to be deep and somber and rich.

I notice that the person who is playing my horn is not sounding any better than usual, and in fact is struggling a bit to get as full of a tone as I can get on the horn because it simply requires stronger breath support to really fill the instrument up. It's certainly "fine", and they're getting the music out, it's just not any better.

At the end of the piece, the person hands the horn back to me and looks baffled. They usually then ask me how much I paid for the horn, are shocked, and then say something along the lines of "Geez, it really isn't any better than the my Yamaha... I guess it's the player, not so much the horn." Sometimes they'll even be obnoxious and say "Geez, what a waste of money! I can get just as good music out of my Yamaha!"


It's like this with so many things... how many of you have kids who think you're stupid and don't know what the hell you're talking about? How many of you have been kids and were pretty sure your parents were utterly stupid? Did you get stupid as you grew older, and now your kids have simply surpassed you? Hmmm? Is the same thing going to happen to them?

No, of course not.

What we see in all of these kinds of situations is experience in action.

Experience is a real curse, because without the experience that someone who is your better in a given practice, you cannot really tell how much better they are. You might be able to say "Oh yeah, that trumpet player plays really beautifully", but you may not be able to tell that there is literally 15+ years of experience worth of improvement between you and him until you have that extra 15+ years of experience.

You also won't really be able to tell that yes there absolutely is a difference between the $300 and $2500 trumpet, simply because you haven't got enough experience under your belt to get everything out of that $2500 horn, whereas the guy 15+ years your senior will not only be able to tell, but will be able to make your $300 horn seem to come to life.

(Yes, that is a commentary on equipment vs. the user of same.)

In my experience, people who attain true mastery of any thing often have some very similar characteristics...

1. They always feel their work is "fine", but are always feeling like they could have done better if only they could master X or Y.
2. They look at their absolute masterpieces and say things like "Yeah, this one's really not bad... I like it."
3. They actively seek opportunities to learn from others, and accept those opportunities graciously.
4. They never disregard or argue with any criticism... no matter who it comes from.
5. They never poo-poo any other method/type of tool/whathaveyou, but rather look to understand it better because there may well be something buried in there that they don't understand that will allow them to improve.
6. True masters strive to be able to teach others, because being able to teach a concept strengthens mastery of that concept.

I need two more to make it a "7 Habits of Highly Effective Artists".

Where does this leave us? Same place it always does.

Accept that no matter how good you think you are, that there are other people in this world who are better. Accept that you must choose to either grow in what you do, or choose to be happy with where you are. Accept that to grow, the first thing you must do is listen, and the last thing you should be doing is yelling at people who are trying to help you.

Accept that nearly everything you say, do or produce in life (that you were proud of at the time) is something you're going to look back later on and think "Oh man what a mess, I could have done that so much better.".

Accept that no matter how workable your equipment is, that there is a reason why some equipment costs $300, some $2500 and some way way over that. Accept that the reasons for why something costs so much more may simply be something that you cannot grasp because you lack experience. Accept that this is perfectly fine.

Accept that there is nothing wrong with the tools that you use today, but that someday your experience will exceed what your tools can provide you, and that you're going to want new and better tools. Accept that the day this happens should be a very cool day for you, because it means you have learned so much.

Be happy.

Listen to others.

Accept what they have to say.

Learn.

Grow.

Be happy.

 

[RMThompson]

In my experience, people who attain true mastery of any thing often have some very similar characteristics...

1. They always feel their work is "fine", but are always feeling like they could have done better if only they could master X or Y.
2. They look at their absolute masterpieces and say things like "Yeah, this one's really not bad... I like it."
3. They actively seek opportunities to learn from others, and accept those opportunities graciously.
4. They never disregard or argue with any criticism... no matter who it comes from.
5. They never poo-poo any other method/type of tool/whathaveyou, but rather look to understand it better because there may well be something buried in there that they don't understand that will allow them to improve.
6. True masters strive to be able to teach others, because being able to teach a concept strengthens mastery of that concept.

I need two more to make it a "7 Habits of Highly Effective Artists".

Maybe my math is wrong.... but I think that would be 8 habits!

 

[usayit]

(I can't believe this thread is still alive.... wow)

manaheim, (except for the miscount ) well written.

In my lifetime, every accomplished person who has rightfully earned my deep respect has two "personas" that thrive within themselves: "The Humble Student" and "The Wise Teacher". They speak and act at equal levels.

 

[Battou]

Cool options. Needs a "My Dog" button.

You should see the options on the SLR :thumbup:

 

[sabbath999]

OMG, can that dog ever herd any animal on his farm... sheep, cows even goes and herds the cats into the house at night!

Yeah, they've got some mad skills at that.

Dude, that is all there is to know about wedding photography... how to herd people into doing something they don't want to do.

 

[sabbath999]

Some of your posts are so discouraging, that if I took them to heart I'd throw my camera under a train.

I've actually done that... I put my D40 in a hollow I dug out next to a tie and shot it remotely with an oncoming train... the problem was that I was trespassing to do it, and the train has a really big emblem on the front of it so I can't share the shot... it looks pretty good though, the blurred image of the engine is kind of a 'reverse zoom' effect.

 

[abraxas]

I've actually done that... I put my D40 in a hollow I dug out next to a tie and shot it remotely with an oncoming train... the problem was that I was trespassing to do it, and the train has a really big emblem on the front of it so I can't share the shot... it looks pretty good though, the blurred image of the engine is kind of a 'reverse zoom' effect.

Now try that with a dog.