Exposure and WB ~

[o hey tyler]

I couldn't figure out what gray cards were for when I registered here, then I realized it's because they would be of no use to me.

LOL.

You want a consistent WB that will actually look good when you import to a color calibrated computer? You'll need a gray card for that.

 

[Kolia]

Joe it seems to me you look at EVF with OVF experience only.

Steve sums it up well. Even if the image is closer to a jpeg in term of dynamic range and WB, it is still representative of the image you will be capturing.

Don't assume that because I use a Sony I shoot in full auto. That's kind of insulting... In your exemple, the actual mistake would be to use the AEL button to set the exposure. Regardless of the camera system, the exposure would be off. Except that with an EVF, you would be able to see the under exposed area and compensate. You can't do that with an OVF. You would have to chimp. Still better than waiting for the prints to come back tho !

There are multiple option available with these EVF. Yes, it can run at full power and simply show a bright scene whatever the conditions. But can also be set to show the image as it will be captured. Hit the preview button and the EVF will give accurate results of your current settings.

Let's not assume that the engineers and designers are clueless about photography...

 

[Ysarex]

Joe it seems to me you look at EVF with OVF experience only.

I still have this one:

And because of my work I have a lot of experience with many others. I'm betting my experience with EVFs predates and is more extensive than yours.

Steve sums it up well. Even if the image is closer to a jpeg in term of dynamic range and WB, it is still representative of the image you will be capturing.

Don't assume that because I use a Sony I shoot in full auto. That's kind of insulting... In your exemple, the actual mistake would be to use the AEL button to set the exposure. Regardless of the camera system, the exposure would be off.

I did not assume nor did I suggest you shoot in full auto. You're the one who keeps making false assumptions here. As for using the AEL function of my camera in the example I posted, it worked and I nailed the exposure so why are you trying to tell me that what worked perfectly and worked as I anticipated was a mistake?

Except that with an EVF, you wouldn't be able to see the under exposed area and compensate. You can't do that with an OVF. You would have to chimp. Still better than waiting for the prints to come back tho !

There are multiple option available with these EVF. Yes, it can run at full power and simply show a bright scene whatever the conditions. But can also be set to show the image as it will be captured. Hit the preview button and the EVF will give accurate results of your current settings.

NO! I'm getting tired of repeating this. The EVF, just like a P&S LCD, shows you the interpretation of the scene that will be saved by the camera's JPEG processing software. If the camera generated JPEG is what you're after then that's fine. But the EVF does not give you an accurate representation of the data captured in the raw file.

Let's not assume that the engineers and designers are clueless about photography...

The engineers and designers do a great job. :thumbup: I'm happy with their efforts.

I don't have a problem with EVF equipped cameras. I was in fact one of the earlier adopters of EVF cameras as evidenced by my Sony R1 -- maybe a little before it's time. I'm saying this one thing in response to the OP's boast that the EVF is an advantage because it shows you the exposure and WB --- and I'm correct: The EVF shows you the exposure and WB as interpreted by the camera JPEG processing software and does not show you an accurate representation of what is captured in the raw file. That is a critical distinction for those who rely on the full advantage available in a raw capture.

Joe

 

[Kolia]

I suggest you go play with a a65, a77 or a99. They have better EVF than the a3x and a5x series.

EVF works much better than you seem to think. And given the fact that a jpeg will clip before the RAW, you will rarely miss any information even when maxing out a channel as seen in the EVF. If I see it in my EVF, it will be on the captured image, guaranteed.

As you know, part of the metering of a camera involves the computer analyzing a scene and deciding what it is we are trying to shoot (landscape, sunset, portrait, babies, etc) and applies whatever settings should be appropriate for the situation. So when we use the AEL button, we are relying on the camera to understand what our intent is. Gone are the days of a simple photometer.

Anyway, if you don't see the potential benefits of real time preview of your settings in the view finder, I can't help you.

 

[Kolia]

And stop repeating the the preview we see is not a real preview. It is.

Set aperture to f16 and shutter speed to 1/4000 at ISO 100 in your basement and the EVF goes black. (Back lit black I'll give you that!)

Unless I turn off the preview mode...

 

[Ysarex]

I suggest you go play with a a65, a77 or a99. They have better EVF than the a3x and a5x series.

EVF works much better than you seem to think.

You continue to ignore what I say. Just because I said I wasn't familiar with the A33 doesn't mean I'm not familiar with EVF cameras. I just told you I was personally an EVF early adopter. I teach photography to college students who all bring me their cameras -- 5 classes a year times average 18 students per class = 90 cameras a year. I've had plenty of opportunity to handle contemporary EVFs -- I have to teach my students how to use them. I just haven't run into a A33 yet.

And given the fact that a jpeg will clip before the RAW, you will rarely miss any information even when maxing out a channel as seen in the EVF. If I see it in my EVF, it will be on the captured image, guaranteed.

Great. Thank you for making my point here. You're right the JPEG will start clipping channels before the raw file clips. And I never once said that what you see in the EVF won't be captured. What I'm saying is what you're verifying right now: The EVF will fail to show you everything that the raw file will capture. I expose the sensors in my cameras to get the best possible raw capture, not the best possible software generated JPEG. That's all I've been saying all along.

As you know, part of the metering of a camera involves the computer analyzing a scene and deciding what it is we are trying to shoot (landscape, sunset, portrait, babies, etc) and applies whatever settings should be appropriate for the situation. So when we use the AEL button, we are relying on the camera to understand what our intent is. Gone are the days of a simple photometer.

I know what you're describing is one option for a camera metering system -- other options exist. The metering method you're describing is available on my 5D mkII. I disabled it about 60 seconds after the camera was turned on for the first time and it has stayed disabled since. When I use the AEL button on my camera the camera locks the exposure I determined from taking a spot reading.

Anyway, if you don't see the potential benefits of real time preview of your settings in the view finder, I can't help you.

And one more time: The EVF does not give you a real time preview of the exposure. It gives you a preview of the camera's JPEG processing software's interpretation which you have acknowledged just a few sentences above: "And given the fact that a jpeg will clip before the RAW, you will rarely miss any information even when maxing out a channel as seen in the EVF."

Did I ever say I needed your help?

Joe

 

[Kolia]

You continue to ignore what I say.

Joe

Actually, it is from what you say that I can conclude you haven't had experience with the latest EVF. It doesn't matter if you get to play with a gazillion camera's every year, if none of those is a proper EVF...

It's obvious I will not convince you so I'll leave you with your opinion on the matter.

 

[Stevepwns]

Did I ever say I needed your help?

Joe

After reading all of this, I get the feeling you are taking this conversation to personally. Maybe you should just agree to disagree. Your tone is a little more aggressive than it needs to be in a friendly conversation. Many of us have and use EVF with no problems and get the picture we saw in the EVF, so I am not really sure why you insist on arguing with people that have this equipment. To say repeatedly that its not an accurate representation is simply wrong. When I take a picture, then go home and upload the RAW file, I am looking at the exact picture I saw in the EVF. So I am not sure why you continue to argue your point. Those with the equipment disagree with you. You disagree with us. Not a big deal. Move on. OP was simply voicing his pleasure with his equipment, lets leave it at that.

 

[DiskoJoe]

Edit: I just looked up the SLT-A33 specs. You're chimping an EVF for exposure and WB and you consider that an advantage?!

Hmm... You call shooting in real time "chimping"? I thought chimping was when you take a shot then check the histogram after...

I don't know your camera well, but if the EVF is an unprocessed and entirely unmodified translation of the image through the lens then I'll buy that it's real time. In that case it's just a poorer quality version of an OVF and gives you no advantage relative to exposure and WB. On the other hand, if that EVF is in any way processed by software in the camera then the delay, however slight, that it takes to complete that processing means you're chimping. To me chimping means you're examining an already processed image.

Joe

The EVF on Sony cameras is very similar to the live view they offer which is about 98% to what the actual output will be. Youd probably be surprised by how nice it works. Also sony has almost no delay in the live view or the evf due to the second processor that is in camera to speed it up. Its much faster then canon and nikon cameras I have used with live view. And it is somewhat processed because you do see the camera adjustment setting in real time as opposed to having to wait for the picture to be developed by the sensor. Its really nice and super handy.

 

[DiskoJoe]

Hmm... You call shooting in real time "chimping"? I thought chimping was when you take a shot then check the histogram after...

I don't know your camera well, but if the EVF is an unprocessed and entirely unmodified translation of the image through the lens then I'll buy that it's real time. In that case it's just a poorer quality version of an OVF and gives you no advantage relative to exposure and WB. On the other hand, if that EVF is in any way processed by software in the camera then the delay, however slight, that it takes to complete that processing means you're chimping. To me chimping means you're examining an already processed image.

Joe

I guess you can label it however you want... But the fact remains, when I look through the viewfinder, I see what the picture is going to look like before I press the shutter button.

On a related note... I couldn't figure out what gray cards were for when I registered here, then I realized it's because they would be of no use to me.

I wouldnt say a grey card is of no use. You can still set your own white balance using one. Its handy if you do event photography and quick. But with live view you can get it right pretty quick too.

 

[DiskoJoe]

I couldn't figure out what gray cards were for when I registered here, then I realized it's because they would be of no use to me.

LOL.

You want a consistent WB that will actually look good when you import to a color calibrated computer? You'll need a gray card for that.

I think he was referring to how it is easy to set it with the camera since you can see the way it will show in real time.

 

[Ysarex]

Did I ever say I needed your help?

Joe

After reading all of this, I get the feeling you are taking this conversation to personally. Maybe you should just agree to disagree. Your tone is a little more aggressive than it needs to be in a friendly conversation.

Too personally... well I don't like being told I said something that I didn't and I don't like being told I'm wrong based on false and unfounded assumptions, so yeah there's a little personal edge. But I won't lose any sleep I promise and I am civil.

Many of us have and use EVF with no problems and get the picture we saw in the EVF, so I am not really sure why you insist on arguing with people that have this equipment.

It takes two to argue. The last time I checked there's Kolia again trying to dismiss me with an unfounded assumption. I'm satisfied now however since he did acknowledge I'm correct.

To say repeatedly that its not an accurate representation is simply wrong. When I take a picture, then go home and upload the RAW file, I am looking at the exact picture I saw in the EVF.

Now you're disagreeing with Kolia who said this: "And given the fact that a jpeg will clip before the RAW, you will rarely miss any information even when maxing out a channel as seen in the EVF." I said, "The EVF, just like a P&S LCD, shows you the interpretation of the scene that will be saved by the camera's JPEG processing software." I've acknowledged that the EVF will show you the image as the Sony Bionz processor will render it. I said it's not an accurate representation of the data recorded in the raw file. And that matters if exposing for the raw file is your priority. I agree with Kolia that a JPEG will clip before a raw file and the EVF will show you that JPEG clipping. Kolia says you're wrong about the EVF and raw files being identical and I have to agree.

So I am not sure why you continue to argue your point. Those with the equipment disagree with you. You disagree with us. Not a big deal. Move on. OP was simply voicing his pleasure with his equipment, lets leave it at that.

Yeah, it's not a big deal, but the OP did more than just voice his pleasure with his equipment. He said this: "I didn't realize for quite some time that people with OVF's actually have to figure out and or guess at Exposure and WB...." He was mocking people who use cameras with optical viewfinders and made a fool of himself in doing so. So in response to his derisive remark my original comment stands.

Joe

Real simple now, chose the correct statement:

A) The preview in a Sony EVF shows you the exposure and WB as it will be rendered by the camera's JPEG processing software.
B) The preview in a Sony EVF shows you the exposure and WB as it is recorded in the raw file.
C) Both A and B are true.

 

[The_Traveler]

Oh, crap.

This is the silliest example of weenie wagging I've read lately and doesn't resound to anyone's credit.

 

[DiskoJoe]

Oh, crap.

This is the silliest example of weenie wagging I've read lately and doesn't resound to anyone's credit.

They should just make out and get it over with, lol.

 

[Stevepwns]

Oh, crap.

This is the silliest example of weenie wagging I've read lately and doesn't resound to anyone's credit.

They should just make out and get it over with, lol.